Moral Question

[HTHM]

Two and a half tears ago I built a structure for a client who gives me a least one major project per year. Over the winter in a fierce windstorm the footings gave way and the structure was flattened much to my embarassment. In my defence the structure has already withstood many other strong windstorms, IMHO the construction of the original structure was adequate for the purposes intended. But.....it did blow over.

I have just finished rebuilding the structure in a much over-engineered manner. The client supplied all materials I just have to bill for the labour. It has cost me a week.

The question is, "Do I bill full pop or do I give him a 50% reduced rate due to the fact that I could have done a better job when I first built it?"

The debate begins.......

[2 tone z71]

Id shake his hand and tell him your sorry,id eat the bill and continue the relationship but thats me ,if I build something and it fails its on me be it structure or an engine

Edited April 11, 2008 by 2 Tone Z71

[danbouck]

Id shake his hand and tell him your sorry,id eat the bill and continue the relationship but thats me ,if I build something and it fails its on me be it structure or an engine

 

Agreed!

[muskymike]

This is a tough one, is your relationship with the client valuable to you? If it is, give him the discount. It could have failed for too many reasons to guess, even if it wasnt the workmanship, a repeat customer is something you dont want to throw away. Have you asked him what he thought was fair?

[danc]

I've been there too. A handshake is much better than cash in some situations.

[Gerritt]

I would eat it.... It happens to contractors on a daily basis..

 

Unless you have an engineers stamp... it is your responsibility...

 

Yup definatly eat it.

 

G

[MoriaRiverMan]

owning and running my own company........

 

Eat it and chalk it up as a learning experience.....

 

 

A good word will go further than bad words........

 

Trust me

[Greencoachdog]

I wouldn't charge him a penny, especially since he's a return customer.... your money will come back to you 10 fold.

[Canuck2fan]

I don't know what one week in one year is worth in dollars to you vs many years of other projects? It would be very tough for anyone to go without a paycheck for one week in this economy. That being said though to me it seems a no brainer. I would send him the bill marked paid in full, with a verbal apology!!!! Of course you could do what I think is the right thing here and never HEAR from the customer again, making a useless financial jesture....

 

On the other hand, if you do give any kind of a discount and you are able to sleep soundly at night that might be the best payment you could get.

[forrest]

My take on it:

 

1) maybe insurance would not cover it but: Hasn't the guy ever heard of insurance?

 

2) Do not discount the quality of your work, you have stated that the structure stood as designed. Do not do it for free, the guy knows the quality of your work is good. If you choose to split the bad luck with him do so and state so "bad luck, I do not do this for anyone but since your such a great customer I will take x % off to lower the pain of mother nature" or something like that.

 

3) On the other hand if you totally screwed up......

 

If you do the right thing you will sleep at night....charging him full pop could be the right thing.

 

Everyone has to eat, you included.

 

I would eat it.... It happens to contractors on a daily basis..

 

Unless you have an engineers stamp... it is your responsibility...

 

Yup definatly eat it.

 

G

 

Gerrit does this for a living (correct?).....I do not

 

 

 

 

 

forrest

Edited April 11, 2008 by forrest

[crappieperchhunter]

Looking at it from his point of view. If I was in his position I would be thinking. I paid this guy my hard earned money to do a job. And the job wasn't done right. You can argue this part until the cows come home about whether it was done right the first time or not. It doesn't matter. What matters is I'm sure that the customer will be thinking that. I would be expecting it to be replaced for free based on the fact that I have shown you loyalty by being a repeat customer. If you didn't man up I would be searching for someone else who appreciated my customer loyalty, plain and simple. Have had the same scenario repeated over a few times in my life. I have a list of people who will get my repeat business for various things. And I have another list of people who will never get another penny of my money for as long as I live. Through YOUR actions YOU get to pick which list your customer puts you on.

 

For the life of me I can not even begin to understand how this could be a hard decision.

[Gerritt]

My take on it:

 

1) maybe insurance would not cover it but: Hasn't the guy ever heard of insurance?

 

2) Do not discount the quality of your work, you have stated that the structure stood as designed. Do not do it for free, the guy knows the quality of your work is good. If you choose to split the bad luck with him do so and state so "bad luck, I do not do this for anyone but since your such a great customer I will take x % off to lower the pain of mother nature" or something like that.

 

3) On the other hand if you totally screwed up......

 

If you do the right thing you will sleep at night....charging him full pop could be the right thing.

 

Everyone has to eat, you included.

Gerrit does this for a living (correct?).....I do not

forrest

 

 

 

I will make this simple........ Was there a building permit?

 

G

Edited April 11, 2008 by Gerritt

[JohnF]

Two and a half tears ago I built a structure for a client who gives me a least one major project per year. Over the winter in a fierce windstorm the footings gave way and the structure was flattened much to my embarassment. In my defence the structure has already withstood many other strong windstorms, IMHO the construction of the original structure was adequate for the purposes intended. But.....it did blow over.

I have just finished rebuilding the structure in a much over-engineered manner. The client supplied all materials I just have to bill for the labour. It has cost me a week.

The question is, "Do I bill full pop or do I give him a 50% reduced rate due to the fact that I could have done a better job when I first built it?"

The debate begins.......

 

It's time for a gut check. Did you screw up on the original job? If so, then eat it now and take max advantage for the future. If the problems were through no fault of your own, then make sure the client understands that, and then make some kind of gesture, but never do anything to suggest that your work or your judgement were faulty in the beginning.

 

That being said, if the client is one who can hurt or help you in the future, then factor that into your profit/loss calcs now. If it looks like favourable treatment will be worth enough referral or direct business in the future then cut the client some serious slack, but let him know (diplomatically) that you're really doing him a favour in return for what he can do for you in the future. If he's business savvy he'll understand and reciprocate. If he gives you the "Ya screwed up and owe me" line then be honest. That means being fair to yerself. Pay yourself what you're worth. Don't be guided by phony moral constraints. Ya got a family to feed I assume and for the most part reasonable folks know when they're being treated reasonably, and the dickheads - well, most folks recognize dickheads, even when they're their friends, and give their opinions dickhead value.

 

Be sincere, and be firm. My experience is that reasonably intelligent folks respect honesty and nobody who counts listens to anyone who isn't reasonably intelligent. Trust your own competence. If you can't, then crank it up till you can. That's the only way to succeed in a service business.

 

Good luck.

 

JF

[douG]

I try to agree on a Statement of Work with my customers, just so we all agree on what is going to happen, and who is going to pay for it. Design and Build is a tough business for sure.

 

If things are going south from the original idea, I try to get a plan IN ADVANCE that we figger out how we are going to proceed after that.

 

I find that this stuff makes my business more succesful at the same time.

[Daplumma]

.Its a shame it blew over,did he have the option of overbuilding it the first time around?If he was given the option of cheap vrs well built and chose cheap then I would prolly give him a break on labor just cause hes a good customer.If he was told that the job should be good enough for what he needed and it gave way then its sorta on you bud.Well written response JohnF,it doesn't sound like the customer is being a dickhead being that he paid for the materials.I will have been in the service business for 30 years this year and honestly,the actual work is the easy part.Customer service including resolving just such issues are the skills that keep you in business.Best of luck with your issue,you(and your gut) already know what the right thing is.

Joe

[Tinman]

I would eat the bill, as I have in the past for regular customers. Be good to them and they be good to you. i fully believe that

 

Denis

Edited April 11, 2008 by Tinman

[HTHM]

# 1 I do not need to worry about this client going any where. He understands that it was not my fault the the structure blew over.

# 2 As to a building permit, no this was a farm structure.

# 3 I know I am not imune to mistakes, and when I mess up I admit it. I did not mess up in this case,I built what was agreed upon.

# 4 I suggested that he make an insurance claim, but he did not want to.

# 5 the winds that knoked it down were hurricane force, across an open field. 60 - 70 mph

# 6 The client already has aknowleded the fact that he is on the hook for this, however I am trying to decide if I use a # 0 or a # 10 bait holder. ( see, it always comes down to fishing!)

[JohnF]

# 1 I do not need to worry about this client going any where. He understands that it was not my fault the the structure blew over.

# 2 As to a building permit, no this was a farm structure.

# 3 I know I am not imune to mistakes, and when I mess up I admit it. I did not mess up in this case,I built what was agreed upon.

# 4 I suggested that he make an insurance claim, but he did not want to.

# 5 the winds that knoked it down were hurricane force, across an open field. 60 - 70 mph

# 6 The client already has aknowleded the fact that he is on the hook for this, however I am trying to decide if I use a # 0 or a # 10 bait holder. ( see, it always comes down to fishing!)

 

It doesn't always work out well, but in this case I'd be inclined to sit down with the client and simply ask ask what he thinks would be fair. It might just work out to your advantage in the end. If he's unrealistic then you blow him off, but if he's being fair you can make lots of points and get some some positive promotion out of it. Again, follow your gut.

 

JF

[LundGuy]

Its simple. If it wasn't your fault then you should get paid in full to do it again. It is at your discretion whether you want to give him a deal or not. If the guy is a very good repeat customer as you say, then give him a deal, but make sure you cover yourself, he will be happy for sure. There is no need to do it for nothing if it was not your fault as you stated.

As a contractor and store owner I have had to deal with this type of thing many times. I once had a lady that bought all her plumbing fixtures from me (approx. $25,000 worth).We delivered them to her new house that was semi finished. The next day she called our store to tell us everything was stolen that night. She had to reorder everything again. What would you do in that situation ? What I did was only charge her 10% over my cost to cover handling and delivery.She was glad we didn't charge full price, even though it was not our problem. Its a little different in your situation, because you will lose up to a weeks pay and from no fault of your own. You definitely should get paid. Oh and by the way, it doesn't matter if its on a farm, any structural work requires a permit anywhere in Ontario.

[irishfield]

Oh and by the way, it doesn't matter if its on a farm, any structural work requires a permit anywhere in Ontario

 

Not so.. I can build as many aircraft hangars as I choose or anything to do with the upkeep of an aerodrome without permits. Province has no constitutional capacity to assess any planning power over an aerodrome. There were no permits pulled for building Terminal Three at Pearson either.. just ask the extremely disappointed city of Mississauga. As far as I know outbuildings on a farm don't need them either and especially not a horse shelter or similar.. as it sounds like what HTH built.

[OhioFisherman]

Farm structure? Like a pole barn posts set on concrete rounds? Back filled with dirt to stabilize the posts? Unusual for them to move once tied together, Tornadoes are unusual too though.

[LundGuy]

We worked on a farm outside London and they had to have stamped plans and all proper inspections. When I built my barn I had to have everything inspected, as a matter fact they made me change a few things that I did'nt agree with, so they put a stop order until I complied.

Edited April 11, 2008 by LundGuy

[JohnF]

Its simple.

 

Actually, it's not real simple. Whether or not you're at fault, the perception of fault is more important. If you're dealing with a credible consumer (i.e. one who has the ear of many folks in your market area) then the main concern has to be their perception of the problem. You can be right as rain, but if the consumer doesn't think so, it's gonna cost you, one way or another. The real trick for a savvy businessman is to figure out how much he has to give to get the most benefit. He also has to concern himself with how much he can afford to give without getting a rep as a pushover. Most folks respect real professionalism, but sometimes it has to be explained to them first. That takes a certain amount of diplomacy. I think diplomacy is the one thing that really makes the distinction between a true businessman and a mere mechanic (no offence to the mechanics in our midst, but if you're astute, you already know the difference).

 

Methinks Wayne might be a pretty good example of a true businessman here. At the end of the day you get back more than what you give in business, if you do your giving judiciously.

 

JF

[knightfisher]

I could have done a better job when I first built it"

The debate begins.......

 

No debate here.

 

When one does a job, it's done professionally or one can expect problems down

the road.

 

You should of done the job ''better'' the first time.

 

No way I would charge my customer for a job twice, if it was in any way my

responsiblity, as you have stated above.

 

Dan

[bigfish1965]

Two and a half tears ago I built a structure for a client who gives me a least one major project per year. Over the winter in a fierce windstorm the footings gave way and the structure was flattened much to my embarassment. In my defence the structure has already withstood many other strong windstorms, IMHO the construction of the original structure was adequate for the purposes intended. But.....it did blow over.

I have just finished rebuilding the structure in a much over-engineered manner. The client supplied all materials I just have to bill for the labour. It has cost me a week.

The question is, "Do I bill full pop or do I give him a 50% reduced rate due to the fact that I could have done a better job when I first built it?"

The debate begins.......

I think I would expect a structure ti withstand winds like that. They are rare, but do occur often enough in Ontario to warrant that type of stability. Now I''m not talking about a garden shed, but a structure.

I would likely either eat the bill or give back somehow...take the money and donate it to charity in his name.