A deeper dive into Lithium batteries

[BassMan11]

Well I made the jump into LiFEP04 batteries after smothering myself with information. I think I have a learned a few things I can pass along to the average fisherman who is in the market for new batteries for their trolling motor or house battery setup. 

First off - Yes I know Dakota Lithium seem to be the standard in fishing... there is also Battleborn, Relion, and Millertech which are all high end batteries all over $1000 CDN. I would assume there is a reason these batteries are 3X the price of some reputable budget brands, but for me those aren't really options. Probably has something to do with cell grade (which is a whole other can of worms). 

There is also middle of the road companies such as Amped, or Ionic who also get great reviews but are in the $6-700 range

I narrowed down my list to 3 brands who all get good reviews across several fishing and off-grid forums as well as Youtube which are all approximately in the same price range - $400ish

AOLithium

Power Queen

Li time

These brands seem to keep rising to the top of budget category. My first choice was AOlithium with built in Bluetooth connectivity but they are currently sold out and I am impulsive. So I went with the Power Queen 12V 100ah on sale at the time for $319 a piece. 

Bluetooth connectivity to monitor battery capacity was important for me though as when a Lithium battery dies it dies and not being able to re-deploy an Ulterra trolling motor is an issue.  So I bought a device made by a company called Victron call a smart shunt. The devices monitors your battery system and its health. Whether its 12, 24, or 36 volts. You have all sort of historical data such as number of cycles, average charging amperage, average ah draw, etc. Not necessary in all scenrio's but more info the better imo.

Another option the Power Queen batteries do not have but others do (Li Time Trolling motor edition) is low temp charging cut off. These batteries do not like being charged when its below 0C and it can ruin the battery. So if your boat is outside all fishing season, this is something to consider.

LiFEP04 batteries are more like mini computers then a conventional battery. Inside they have a BMS (Battery management system) which is essentially a brain that will protect the battery from over charging, over current, shorting (no more welding wrenches), high temp, and low temp by shutting the battery off if it senses any of these issues. So with that in mind... they can also be a bit more finicky than a standard Lead Acid or AGM battery. They also make 24 and 36 volt single batteries instead of wiring multiple batteries in series. Lots of pro's and con's there to read about.

My setup is a 24 volt system for the Ulterra and then a house battery for all of the electronics. I decided to go with 2 100ah group size 31 in series for the trolling motor and then a mini 100ah house battery as I have a compartment size constraint. My 4th battery will stay a standard AGM starting battery for the motor. They do make LifeP04 starting batteries but they are expensive and there are not many companies that make them at this time.

 

Out - 2 group size 31 Nautilus XD AGM's - 103ah - 71lbs each

          1 Group size 24 Nautilus XD AGM - 79ah - 60lbs

In - 2 group size 31 LiFEP04's - 100ah - 25lbs each

       1 Group size 24(ish) LiFEP04 - 100ah - 19lbs

Current price to purchase - AGM batteries - $1701 plus tax

                                                LiFEP04 - $1157 plus tax

 

My AGM's lasted 8 years and still have life left so I was able to sell them. I have no complaints about those batteries... made heavy duty.... but that is a 133lb weight savings, 15ah gain, and over $500 cost savings. Will they Power Queens last 8 years? Jury is out on that as there are no long term reviews on these types of batteries. They claim they will, but we will see. 

Lastly are chargers - Multi bank chargers with the a Lithium setting work great. I opted to go with a 24 volt onboard charger as cell balancing may be better across both batteries when in series. Again this is something I will monitor. 

Below are a couple of pictures.. wiring will be cleaned up a bit but wanted to make sure everything is in working order.

Trolling motor setup with charger and smart shunt

House battery compartment

Smart Shunt app main page

 

Hope this helps

Cheers

BM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19 by BassMan11

[HTHM]

Well written and cogent. Thank you for your efforts. 

[CrowMan]

Great info ! I have the AOLithium for a year now, and they have exceeded my expectations in every regard. I have heard nothing but good things about the Power Queens too. I'm still scratching my head why Dakota commands such a high price...difficult to justify.

[porkpie]

Thanks for the write up.  I feel like I’ve got several good years ahead out of my current batteries, but it will be nice to see how these things hold up as I’ll be looking at lithium for my next set.

[BassMan11]

1 hour ago, CrowMan said:

Great info ! I have the AOLithium for a year now, and they have exceeded my expectations in every regard. I have heard nothing but good things about the Power Queens too. I'm still scratching my head why Dakota commands such a high price...difficult to justify.

I did forget to mention the warranty might be a reason why the extra $$$$... although the 11 year is more like 6 according to the fine print and their customer service seems to not get very good reviews as of recent. Still a good battery though.

[Dan668]

Thanks for the write up. I had the same brands in mind, but ultimately decided to stick with my 3 group 31 agm for my trolling motor. They are 4 years old and resale probably isn't great. Would have loved the space and weight savings.

My Northstar AGM starter/house battery is on its way out. Too bad my outboard is an Optimax, doesn't look like Mercury approved lithium batteries for that line. Can't see much chatter online on it, but seems like it has to do with the alternator not being able to sufficiently charge the battery.

[CrowMan]

Like I said...a head scratcher.

My 100a AOLithiums came with Bluetooth built-in, BMS and use "Class A" cells. 8 year warranty. Currently sell for $399.

The 100a Dakota, 11 year warranty. Currently sell for $943.

$544 for 3 more years of warranty ??  I'll buy another AOLithium after 8 years and still be ahead.

Is there something I'm missing in the Dakota technology ? Is it just because Dakota spends a lot on marketing, like sponsoring the pro Bass tours ? Anyone with an explanation ?

 

 

[CrowMan]

12 minutes ago, Dan668 said:

Thanks for the write up. I had the same brands in mind, but ultimately decided to stick with my 3 group 31 agm for my trolling motor. They are 4 years old and resale probably isn't great. Would have loved the space and weight savings.

My Northstar AGM starter/house battery is on its way out. Too bad my outboard is an Optimax, doesn't look like Mercury approved lithium batteries for that line. Can't see much chatter online on it, but seems like it has to do with the alternator not being able to sufficiently charge the battery.

Lithiums are great for trolling motors and electronics, but I wouldn't use a lithium as a starter/cranking battery at this point. Stick with the AGM. 

Edited March 20 by CrowMan

[BillM]

Dakota is a absolute waste of $$$.   All that extra for what?  They could charge those prices because they were one of the first in the game.  People are finally waking up to realize their batteries are just like all the rest.   

[BassMan11]

6 minutes ago, BillM said:

Dakota is a absolute waste of $$$.   All that extra for what?  They could charge those prices because they were one of the first in the game.  People are finally waking up to realize their batteries are just like all the rest.   

Its also funny because all the brands LIFeP04 battery cells and materials used to make them are coming from China..... all of them. Then they are put together where ever after that with BMS's and sensors... but the "cheap Chinese" battery argument doesn't really fly right now. 

[BillM]

47 minutes ago, BassMan11 said:

Its also funny because all the brands LIFeP04 battery cells and materials used to make them are coming from China..... all of them. Then they are put together where ever after that with BMS's and sensors... but the "cheap Chinese" battery argument doesn't really fly right now. 

Yup, you got it.   When my AGMs die I'll happily buy some cheap Amazon lithiums and not worry too much about it. 

[AKRISONER]

Thank you so much for this write up. I have started reading a lot, because when this set of batteries goes (im on year 3) its going to be time to finally make the swap. At the time, I was on the fence simply due to pricing, but everything I am reading now is certainly pointing me back to lithium for my next battery purchase. The collapse in pricing is astonishing, but not surprising as the tech became readily available.

To date I have not heard of one person speak negatively about switching the lithium, and holy cow a 100lbs weight savings is astronomical when it comes to boats, if your running anything under 20 feet long, it almost seems like a total no brainer. Jesus, anyone running a 14 foot tinner would have to be high to not go lithium. The gas alone would probably pay the difference in a year.

I am by far the most intrigued by getting one of those giant 36v's to run my trolling motor. I started my boat out with 3 trolling motor batteries and one starting electronics battery, but with the 3 10 inch screens and livescope, a few low voltage warnings after long days pre-fishing had me sketched right out about running out of juice on my starter.

Ive now swapped one of my TM's AGM's to an electronics only battery, and downgraded the trolling motor to 24volts. I do not notice too huge of a difference between 36 and 24, however I will say the 36 notably has more tourque when you need it and I do miss it the odd time. 

After fishing with a club member this summer that has a tinner rigged for walleye fishing up north, he put me on to a neat little invention called an Automatic Charge Relay. I personally call it the poor man's powerpole charge. It allows your boats alternator/rectifyer to send juice to another battery once it determines that your starting battery is back up fully charged after starting. This is ideal, now when im making my runs around the lake, some of that juice can be fired back to my electronics batteries to help me get through some of those 12+ hour days at the lake.

Anyways, enough about me and hijacking your thread, I actually have a question that I have not been able to decipher through my reading thus far about lithium batteries. You allude to it in your post, but perhaps you read into this further, It is my understanding that Lithium batteries do not like being charged when cold, but also many batteries available in the market are temperature protected or maybe even heated?

Now for the good ol boys down south, none of this is applicable at all, but for us folks in the great white north that fish in the fall, how does one get around these "low temp cut offs" Correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard that some will shut down as soon as they reach 5 degrees C? (i may be making that number up? but from memory?)

So honest question to you Bassman, what are do we need to look for in our Lithium batteries up here in canada? Im sure there is some way to pay for some feature that will have us canadians not worried about going fishing during the months of September through June lol. I couldnt imagine parking the boat at the dock at night on a clear september night only to find that my batteries arent charged when I wake up in the morning to go fishing.

Edited March 20 by AKRISONER

[kar99m]

[kar99m]

This is my starting battery very small lithium, about 6 years old. No problems, have never charged except when in a boat, very light and powerful can't even think to go back to old AGM or any other battery system. 

[BillM]

What motor are you starting that with?

[CrowMan]

39 minutes ago, AKRISONER said:

Thank you so much for this write up. I have started reading a lot, because when this set of batteries goes (im on year 3) its going to be time to finally make the swap. At the time, I was on the fence simply due to pricing, but everything I am reading now is certainly pointing me back to lithium for my next battery purchase. The collapse in pricing is astonishing, but not surprising as the tech became readily available.

To date I have not heard of one person speak negatively about switching the lithium, and holy cow a 100lbs weight savings is astronomical when it comes to boats, if your running anything under 20 feet long, it almost seems like a total no brainer. Jesus, anyone running a 14 foot tinner would have to be high to not go lithium. The gas alone would probably pay the difference in a year.

I am by far the most intrigued by getting one of those giant 36v's to run my trolling motor. I started my boat out with 3 trolling motor batteries and one starting electronics battery, but with the 3 10 inch screens and livescope, a few low voltage warnings after long days pre-fishing had me sketched right out about running out of juice on my starter.

Ive now swapped one of my TM's AGM's to an electronics only battery, and downgraded the trolling motor to 24volts. I do not notice too huge of a difference between 36 and 24, however I will say the 36 notably has more tourque when you need it and I do miss it the odd time. 

After fishing with a club member this summer that has a tinner rigged for walleye fishing up north, he put me on to a neat little invention called an Automatic Charge Relay. I personally call it the poor man's powerpole charge. It allows your boats alternator/rectifyer to send juice to another battery once it determines that your starting battery is back up fully charged after starting. This is ideal, now when im making my runs around the lake, some of that juice can be fired back to my electronics batteries to help me get through some of those 12+ hour days at the lake.

Anyways, enough about me and hijacking your thread, I actually have a question that I have not been able to decipher through my reading thus far about lithium batteries. You allude to it in your post, but perhaps you read into this further, It is my understanding that Lithium batteries do not like being charged when cold, but also many batteries available in the market are temperature protected or maybe even heated?

Now for the good ol boys down south, none of this is applicable at all, but for us folks in the great white north that fish in the fall, how does one get around these "low temp cut offs" Correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard that some will shut down as soon as they reach 5 degrees C? (i may be making that number up? but from memory?)

So honest question to you Bassman, what are do we need to look for in our Lithium batteries up here in canada? Im sure there is some way to pay for some feature that will have us canadians not worried about going fishing during the months of September through June lol. I couldnt imagine parking the boat at the dock at night on a clear september night only to find that my batteries arent charged when I wake up in the morning to go fishing.

I ran my boat with lithiums right into November this past autumn. The AOLithium's BMS has a built-in circuit that automatically shuts off the charging if the ambient temperature gets below 0 C to prevent damage to the battery. So I  never had any worries about ruining the battery.  However, I was skeptical at first if they would fully charge on a cold night....but I ended up always waking up to a fully topped up battery.

Now to be fair, two factors why I probably never had a problem. First, I was charging when the boat was tied up to my cottage dock. So, the boat was in the water, and obviously the water temp never got below 0 C, even though the air temp could be well below that. Second, I have an aluminum hull Lund...which surely conducts the warmer water temp to the batteries more effectively. I always left the battery compartment closed....the lid is over half an inch thick, so that at least provides some insulation from the cold air.

Not sure if the same would hold true with a glass hull. Worst case scenario, if I was charging on land on a cold night (and not in a garage), I would think running a small electric heater in the battery compartment would negate any worries about getting a full charge. Even a simple old school incandescent light bulb would probably do it. 

And yes, some lithiums have a built-in heating circuit that uses current from the charger to keep the battery warm for charging in sub-zero temps. That's how it works in my wife's EV, which she leaves parked outside all winter long. Not much of a test this winter, but one night at the cottage we did get down to -22 C...and no problem at all.

 

[kar99m]

It is 40hp 4 stroke, but it is good for a bigger motor go to Antigravity website to get a specific info. This battery also have an extra reserved power to always start your motor.

[kar99m]

To figured out look for your outboard cranking power requirements and go from there 

[kar99m]

East Penn Manufacturing
https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com › ...PDF
Marine Application Selector Guide (0406)

Check this out 

Marine_RV-Application-Selector-Guide-0406.pdf

[BassMan11]

3 hours ago, AKRISONER said:

Thank you so much for this write up. I have started reading a lot, because when this set of batteries goes (im on year 3) its going to be time to finally make the swap. At the time, I was on the fence simply due to pricing, but everything I am reading now is certainly pointing me back to lithium for my next battery purchase. The collapse in pricing is astonishing, but not surprising as the tech became readily available.

To date I have not heard of one person speak negatively about switching the lithium, and holy cow a 100lbs weight savings is astronomical when it comes to boats, if your running anything under 20 feet long, it almost seems like a total no brainer. Jesus, anyone running a 14 foot tinner would have to be high to not go lithium. The gas alone would probably pay the difference in a year.

I am by far the most intrigued by getting one of those giant 36v's to run my trolling motor. I started my boat out with 3 trolling motor batteries and one starting electronics battery, but with the 3 10 inch screens and livescope, a few low voltage warnings after long days pre-fishing had me sketched right out about running out of juice on my starter.

Ive now swapped one of my TM's AGM's to an electronics only battery, and downgraded the trolling motor to 24volts. I do not notice too huge of a difference between 36 and 24, however I will say the 36 notably has more tourque when you need it and I do miss it the odd time. 

After fishing with a club member this summer that has a tinner rigged for walleye fishing up north, he put me on to a neat little invention called an Automatic Charge Relay. I personally call it the poor man's powerpole charge. It allows your boats alternator/rectifyer to send juice to another battery once it determines that your starting battery is back up fully charged after starting. This is ideal, now when im making my runs around the lake, some of that juice can be fired back to my electronics batteries to help me get through some of those 12+ hour days at the lake.

Anyways, enough about me and hijacking your thread, I actually have a question that I have not been able to decipher through my reading thus far about lithium batteries. You allude to it in your post, but perhaps you read into this further, It is my understanding that Lithium batteries do not like being charged when cold, but also many batteries available in the market are temperature protected or maybe even heated?

Now for the good ol boys down south, none of this is applicable at all, but for us folks in the great white north that fish in the fall, how does one get around these "low temp cut offs" Correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard that some will shut down as soon as they reach 5 degrees C? (i may be making that number up? but from memory?)

So honest question to you Bassman, what are do we need to look for in our Lithium batteries up here in canada? Im sure there is some way to pay for some feature that will have us canadians not worried about going fishing during the months of September through June lol. I couldnt imagine parking the boat at the dock at night on a clear september night only to find that my batteries arent charged when I wake up in the morning to go fishing.

Hey Arki,

 

ACR's work great with Lead acid or AGM starting and house battery set up. I currently have one for sale now though lol. According to the smart shunt it would take about 30 hours of straight use with my 3 fish finders (at full brightness), the livewell, and the radio at half volume to kill the 100ah house battery. 

Low temp charging cut off will save your battery (below 0 degree's). For me if I was on a trip and we were flirting around 0 / -1 I just wouldn't charge them since mine does not have the cut off. Also when the temp sensor gets back to above freezing the BMS will let the battery start charging again. Right now there isn't really a work around from the "type" of battery perspective. 

If I were a tournament guy and this was a concern that might cost me money.... maybe a space heater or insulated compartments... but from what I gather even the pro's say these batteries can last days on a single charge. 

The self heating batteries would be more for off grid or RV applications to keep the battery warm when it gets down below -20. This still won't help with the cold charging issue.

BM

 

 

[BassMan11]

7 hours ago, kar99m said:

This is my starting battery very small lithium, about 6 years old. No problems, have never charged except when in a boat, very light and powerful can't even think to go back to old AGM or any other battery system. 

Interesting stuff KAR. Now these are Lithium-Ion which are a bit different than LIFeP04 batteries but seem to still have a BMS inside them.

Looks like the starting battery I would need for 800 CCA would be just over $600CDN (which is a bit steep for a starting battery) but only weighs 5lbs which is pretty neat. 

 Hopefully the price comes down as more of these type of batteries come to the market. Deep cycles have a lot of different applications where not many people care about the weight of the starting battery in their car, truck or RV. 

[Raycaster]

This is a great topic with content.

Just looking at this also as Im farting around with good/bad batteries.

Are there disadvantages of just going to a 24v battery? Charger?

[Fisherman]

Well if you ever want to use it to power something 12 volt, you'll be letting out a lot of smoke genies.

[Raycaster]

I was just thinking it would be optimal just to go 24V for my Terrova. Most people go the 12V 100ah and just run series like regular but it just seems sloppy if you know you need exactly 24V and not worried about having to crank the engine in an emergency..

[BillM]

27 minutes ago, Raycaster said:

I was just thinking it would be optimal just to go 24V for my Terrova. Most people go the 12V 100ah and just run series like regular but it just seems sloppy if you know you need exactly 24V and not worried about having to crank the engine in an emergency..

They'll get a lot more run time running 2, 12V 100ah batteries compared to a single 24V battery.   Something you should consider.