A boating question.

[Old Ironmaker]

I have read where marine horsepower is rated as horsepower at the prop as well as horse power at the flywheel. What is that to mean? What's the difference? When my Transport Canada plate says maximum horsepower which horsepower are they referring to? Anyone here know what the difference is?

 

Thanks all.

[cheaptackle]

Good question! While this isn't as definitive as you're looking for, it's a pretty safe be that whatever the manufacturer has labelled the motor with on it's data plate will be what is "legal" for rating purposes. Whether that is prop or flywheel I can't say, I've never given it any concern before this. Bears looking into. I'll let you know if I find out.

 

Michael

[G.mech]

I did a report on engine dynos in college way back when and as I recall outboard horsepower has been measured at the prop shaft instead of the flywheel since the early 80's or so. The only real difference is where the dyno is connected. The prop shaft horsepower will be a little less than than the flywheel horsepower but only by about 10% or so. It's the same idea as and engine dyno vs a chassis dyno for you car; one measures the HP at the flywheel, the other at the wheels. Your nameplate now refers to prop shaft horsepower.

Edited October 12, 2016 by G.mech

[grimsbylander]

When the plate refers to maximum horsepower, it's actually referring to both prop or flywheel. It's a catch all because they don't determine how the motor manufacturer rates the outboards HP. Basically, they only care what it was labelled and sold at.

[dave524]

You are overthinking this, going to make your head hurt

[grimsbylander]

You are overthinking this, going to make your head hurt

 

 

If I could find a loop hole to get a 225 on my boat I'd be all over it! LOL maybe I'll just say it's 200 at the flywheel?? hahaha

[cheaptackle]

Change the decals on the hood like "nobody else" does?

 

Michael

[Old Ironmaker]

I think I have it, actually no I don't. I think the article I read that brought this up the author was trying to seem more intelligent than he is. I have always asked questions, too many one teacher said in grade school. When I was training at the plant it was usually the guy training me who's head hurt. I was amazed at the lack of knowledge that some old timers actually knew about the process. I ended up writing the supervisors training manual before I left. That made my head hurt.

 

This is one of those questions that is so cloudy there may be no definitive answer. The reason I asked was exactly what Grimsby brought up. Also a sharp insurance investigator might just find that the engine is over rated for the boat regarding a big claim and deny it.

[grimsbylander]

I think I have it, actually no I don't. I think the article I read that brought this up the author was trying to seem more intelligent than he is. I have always asked questions, too many one teacher said in grade school. When I was training at the plant it was usually the guy training me who's head hurt. I was amazed at the lack of knowledge that some old timers actually knew about the process. I ended up writing the supervisors training manual before I left. That made my head hurt.

 

This is one of those questions that is so cloudy there may be no definitive answer. The reason I asked was exactly what Grimsby brought up. Also a sharp insurance investigator might just find that the engine is over rated for the boat regarding a big claim and deny it.

 

Yes Sir. Cheating by overpowering your boat with a decal swap is great...until something goes wrong. The liability is just not worth the extra performance. Regardless of damage or fault, if there's a problem and your insurance backs out, it'll be time to lawyer up. But oh the fun until then!

[porkpie]

They put the horsepower ratings in big numbers on the back of the motor. That's how many horsepower the motor is.

Edited October 12, 2016 by porkpie

[KLINKER]

Your plate limits are recommended not law so it really doesn't matter.

[John Bacon]

 

 

If I could find a loop hole to get a 225 on my boat I'd be all over it! LOL maybe I'll just say it's 200 at the flywheel?? hahaha

225 hp at the prop would be more than, not less than 225 at the flywheel.

 

 

[grimsbylander]

225 hp at the prop would be more than, not less than 225 at the flywheel.

 

 

Yes I know!! It was a joke...I'll bolt on a 225 and tell the coast guard its 200 at the flywheel. My boat is rated for 200 max.

[GBW]

They put the horsepower ratings in big numbers on the back of the motor. That's how many horsepower the motor is.

[NANUK]

HP rating on a hull is just a guideline in Canada, it is not legally enforced like the US,

BUT, I am not sure how an insurance company will handle a claim on an over powered vessel in case of an accident etc.

[craigdritchie]

Your plate limits are recommended not law so it really doesn't matter.

 

That's not true at all. The Transport Canada capacity plate has legal authority.

 

Beyond that, if you ever have an accident with an overpowered boat, your insurance coverage is automatically null and void.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Craig_Ritchie

[BillM]

Doesn't seem that 25hp is worth the hassle, lol.

[dave524]

If that 200 is an heavy 4 stroke you could replace it with a 200 2 stroke and get the equivalent of a 25 horsepower boost in performance

[John Bacon]

I got this off a discussion on another site:

http://www.oodmag.com/community/showthread.php?20906-Overpowering-a-boat/page4

 

Okay. I received the e-mail and the answer that a number of people are looking for. I've cut out the names in case of privacy issues, however, if any of the MODS want the complete e-mail to confirm authenticity, I will gladly e-mail it to them for perusal. For your own info, read the whole response, but, in essence, the maximum HP and persons/weight capacity should not be exceeded for the sake of negligence. Excessive HP in small amounts "may" be overlooked, but there is no hard and fast number, each to their own. Here's the whole shot:
Dear Mr. XXX


In response to your enquiry regarding horsepower limits:

Note: It is the manufacturer’s responsibility to outfit their manufactured pleasure craft with compliance labels and HIN numbers.The owner does not need to get them. The owner’s only responsibility is to ensure their craft is well maintained.


Compliance notices: conformity and capacity labels:
A compliance notice is a label put on the side of your pleasure craft to show that it has been constructed according to Canadian safety standards. They prove your pleasure craft has been built in accordance with the safe construction standards of Transport Canada.
Note: Only pleasure craft designed to use a motor require a compliance notice.
There are two kinds of compliance notices: conformity labels and capacity labels:
Conformity labels simply let you know your pleasure craft complies with safety standards. Pleasure craft over 6m in length require conformity labels when they are built.
Capacity labels let you know your pleasure craft complies with safety standards and display your craft’s maximum capacities (maximum horsepower, maximum number of passengers, etc.) to help you make responsible decisions. Pleasure craft over 6m in length require capacity labels when they are built.
If you bought a pleasure craft manufactured in May 2010 or later that has no compliance notice, then the original manufacturer or importer is obligated to give you one. However, you are not required to have the compliance notice and will not be fined for not having one. You do not need to get a compliance notice as a boat owner.




Your role regarding maximum capacities:


The following is not intended to be legal advice. For legal advice contact a lawyer.

The compliance notice (capacity label or single vessel label) contains recommended maximum safe limits. These are recommended safe limits for pleasure craft, and are not specifically enforceable under law. For instance if a person were to exceed the limits of a horsepower by small amount, there would be no offence.

These recommendations are made for a very specific purpose--to ensure that a builder does not misrepresent the maximum capabilities of a vessel, and to ensure that an owner has a reasonable idea of the maximum safe limits of the vessel.

Since the label on the vessel ensures the owner is familiar with the recommended safe capacities, and since an owner is expected to manage a vessel in a safe manner, it may be considered negligent of an owner to significantly exceed the recommended safe limits (for instance by fitting a 100 hp motor to a vessel rated at 20 hp). This could expose an owner or operator to civil liability or criminal penalties if there were an incident involving serious injury or loss of life.

If you cannot obtain a capacity label, but want to know some recommended capacities for your pleasure craft, you should hire amarine surveyor to survey your pleasure craft for recommended capacities.




For the latest updates from the Office of Boating Safety, I encourage you to subscribe to our electronic mailing list:http://www.tc.gc.ca/marinesafety/debs/obs/news/mailing_list/menu.htm

For further information, please visit http://www.boatingsafety.gc.ca

[Old Ironmaker]

I have come to learn that yes, the number on your engine is taken as what HP you have and it is all taken at the prop by all manufacturers since the mid 80's in North America. The Transport Canada plate that states max HP on the boat is not a suggestion it is law. One can be charged for non compliance here in Canada. More than one boater has changed the cowl to represent a lower HP. Regardless of insurance being null and void I can't see why someone would risk the damage to the transom over time.

[NANUK]

Thanks for the clarification JohnBacon,

That is what I had been told, HP rating is recommendation by the boat manufecturer and not legally enforced in Canada,

It is highly advisable to follow the manufecturer's recommendations for safety and insurance reasons.

[KLINKER]

They change the decals from a 15 to a 9.9 to avoid licensing but from John's post above that comes from the gov. site you see that it is an enforced recommendation. I'm not saying they wouldn't charge you for it but it would have to be something other than not non compliance to the capacity plate.

They could charge you for installing a dangerously large engine as its illegal to modify the boat or install an appliance (motor)without the manufacturers consent. So if you want to run 100hp over the recommended hp on the plate you want to get the written consent from the manufacturer(good luck with that) and your good to go.

They could use the same law to charge you with pedestal seating if it was not original to the boat as it changes the characteristics of the boat to where the capacity plate would no longer apply.

[ssminnow]

 

That's not true at all. The Transport Canada capacity plate has legal authority.

 

Beyond that, if you ever have an accident with an overpowered boat, your insurance coverage is automatically null and void.

Are you sure about this information? My insurance company has the info from my capacity plate as well as the horsepower of the engine which is above the recommended although only 5hp above the max rating. This information is all recorded. I think they would have difficulty automatically making a policy null and void at the time a claim is made after underwriting with all correct information provided.

[misfish]

Then theres the, yes it,s a 115. Thats what the cowling says right. Yup, it looks like a 115. Thanks, it is, just pumped it a bit. LOL

 

End of story. LOL

[Old Ironmaker]

Yes Brian, I know the basic difference between a 9.9 and 15 HP is a carb kit. I know many guys that have a 15 that says 9.9, not 10, 9.9, that's another joke. The blocks for a 250 and a 300 Merc are identical on older models, I don't know about the newer power plants. On iboats a fellow from Alberta said he was sold a 17 footer rated for a 90 and the dealer sold him a 150. They will sell you anything you will pay for. Personally I think that's nuts if it is true. The guy could virtually tear off the transom eventually. Mine was more of a technical question than what the thread evolved into but some good info regardless. I will tell you 110% because I know this first hand. If there is a major insurance claim as in the case I personally know of, the insurance provider was looking at paying out high 6 digits because their insured was liable in a major accident resulting in severe injury. They tore apart that boat looking for a reason not to pay out. They didn't find anything out of the ordinary, operator error. If they found any design or mechanical fault they would go after the manufacturer after the pay out.

 

Off topic but I just don't get why guys will get behind the wheel of a boat without liability insurance but would never back a car out of a driveway without automobile insurance. A poll here would be interesting to find how many of us actually do have any kind of marine insurance. Boating accidents usually don't turn out very well considering the lack of safety features other than a PFD on a boat which may or maybe not worn.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Old Ironmaker