North American Auto Industry (nf) ~!

[OhioFisherman]

Blame the unions? Just don`t see it sure there are abuses, same on the corporate side. Don`t worry though once wages and benefits drop to the level of 3rd world nations the jobs will come back. Free trade is basically move the jobs to the countries with the lowest pay, least restrictive enviromental laws so the owners can get richer.

 

Then there is open your borders so the cheap labor can sneak in. The problem isn`t people don`t want to do those jobs, it`s the employers don`t want to pay a wage you can live on, they want to keep all the money.

[Terry]

so now that they are losing billions

the workers should be making minimum wage or less by what you are saying....

[walleyejigger]

no, what i'm saying is they "lost" billions, meaning they raked in less cash this year than they lost, (which puts this years money in the minus)but they still got an unfathomable (is that a word, i mean LOTS) amount of money,

 

another example since im from sudbury it works the same as our mines, they might put 6 million dollars in a new smelting plant (more efficient which willl make more money in a long run) but only sell 5 million worth of ore, that counts as a million dollar loss, more like a 6 million dollar investment, if they can't afford it or think it won't make them money they wont do it

 

but hey everybody we lost money this year were in trouble, maube the gov't should help us out.....yeah right, don't believe everything u hear,

 

when they show an independent audit saying they're in trouble i'll believe, until then expect some high officials to get a big bonus

 

 

edit: just thought of something, those bonuses count towards the losses also, isn't it ironic

Edited January 26, 2007 by walleyejigger

[OhioFisherman]

The workers make what the bosses and executives tell the to make, with the parts and equipment provided maybe the management should make minimum wage?

[glirw]

Going the extra step to purchase canadian made products , especially procucts that belong to an already suffering industry is not very productive.

 

You spend extra money that you worked hard for , and you think that you can save that industry with your purchase and the purchases of several others like you , but none the less , majority of people spend their money where it is worth the most , and thus , it's not worth going the extra mile to buy canadian made goods , because the industry will collapse eventually anyway , making your efforts not-worthwhile.

[Golfisher]

I haven't ranted for a long time, and so here it goes.

 

In the 1980s, when the Big Three were being hammered by the Japanese imports, they pressured the US government to implement restrictive policies. So the US goverment tightened its screw around the Japanese government, and the latter agreed to limit the volume of Japanese cars exported to the US--called Voluntary Export Restraints, rather ironically. The result? The Big Three reaped billions of dollars in extra profits, but that wasn't the end of the story. Since there weren't enough Japanese cars to go around to meet the persistent demand for them, American consumers had to pay thousands of extra dollars to get hold of Hondas and Toyotas. So the Japanese automakers also did very well, earning a great deal of extra profits from higher prices. The losers were American consumers, who had to empty their pockets to fatten not just the Big Three but also the Japanese automakers.

 

There is more to this story. Since it was the number of cars that was restricted, not their dollar value, the Japanese shifted their production and marketing to higher-end, more expensive models with even larger profit shifts. And we all know what Lexus and Acura meant for Lincoln and Cadillac; so much for long-term, strategic thinking.

 

It's also unrealistic to think of automakers as national companies anymore. GM owns Saab; Ford has controlling interest in Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Mazda; Renault and Nissan are in the same bed; and Daimler took over Chrysler even though it was at first claimed to be an equal merge. These companies are globalized, with production facilities located around the world and parts supplied from all kinds of places. So the trouble that's ailing GM and Ford is no longer about import competition or high labour costs, but it is about bad strategic planning and short-sighted management that keep producing mediocre cars.

[MANNY]

I have a buddy who works at the Ford assembly plant in oakville ,and I can only feel for the guy cause his job hangs in the balance yet again,but this time he might lose it for good.On that note ,as long as north american car builders continue to build and sell overpriced crap,it looks like its going to continue to be the trend.I also like to add that I have a family member who works for a dealership "GMC" who come mid march will be out of a job due to a nose dive in sales and leasing....... Just bad news all around........ Just my 2 cents...... Edited January 26, 2007 by M.C.

[express168]

This is simple economic theory folks , nothing to worry about .

 

 

 

We here in Canada have a primarily service economy , this is what we do best , that's the way it is .

 

Tight lines!

 

Who do we service if the rest of the population is unemployed?

 

But the fault lies with the big 3, I have friends who work for Ford, Chrysler and Toyota. Guess what? they each make similar money. So why is Toyota making good profits and the big 3 suffering? Look at the top 10 reliable vehicles, the top 10 vehicles in customer satisfaction and how many of them are from the big 3.If your product appeals to the consumer it will be purchased, if not you shall fail.Like others have said the imports have a product and they stick with it eg. civic,accord,corrolla not slap a cobalt nameplate on a cavalier and call it a new vehicle line, rather than fine tune the problems and perfect an existing line they create a new line of vehicle with even more problems than the vehicle it just replaced. That is just my rant , but I hope for all of us and the economy that they can turn this around, because the trickle down effect from the loss of manufacturing jobs i this country can cripple the economy. On a smaller scale look at the effect the loss of many manufacturing jobs in my City of Hamilton and you can see the economic slide that has occured over the past few years after these job losses.

[glirw]

Ok , you guys are really blowing things out of proportion . Yes , here in Ontario automotive industry is relatively big , but we are still very dominant with natural resources , bay street stuff , and many many other sectors .

 

Eventually , like someone else said , China's living standards will rise , as will their wages , and they will no longer have as big a competetive advantage over everyone else .

[express168]

Ok , you guys are really blowing things out of proportion . Yes , here in Ontario automotive industry is relatively big , but we are still very dominant with natural resources , bay street stuff , and many many other sectors .

 

Eventually , like someone else said , China's living standards will rise , as will their wages , and they will no longer have as big a competetive advantage over everyone else .

 

The two areas to watch for a potential economic slowdown are the Auto industry and the Housing industry, when the Auto industry slips the demand for steel and plastics slip. Less demand for some of the minerals and metals that we mine. Lack of consumer confidence results in a slow down in new home building and hence less demand for lumber another major natural resource. Less consumer confidence results in other industries like electronics and such to falter, meaning the stock prices of al these big companies start to fall effecting Bay Street. Look at the last recession and see which industries faltered first and you will see a natural trickledown effect. As far as Chinas standard of living increasing, don't expect it to happen as fast as it would in North america as this is a democratic , free market environment not a communist dictatorship where you are told what your employment status is and not negotiated like ours.

 

Do I belive we are headed to economic doom, NO!. I beleve the big 3 are going to fix their isues but I am just saying that these little warning signs shouldn't be brushed off, as when one major industry fails it begins to work its way down through everybody and then has a major effect on the economy.

 

This is a great topic and I love hearing everbodies views on it , this board definatly has some intelligent people on it.

[fishindevil]

i always try to buy north american,ive only ever owned GM,cars & trucks,its not just about their jobs what about all the spin off jobs from supliers and things like that when the auto market declines so does everything else,its a good monitor of the economy its the first market to suffer if the economy is bad...they can bring in all there stuff and we can only send a small amount of cars to their country,its all a big mess.....

[John Bacon]

 

another example since im from sudbury it works the same as our mines, they might put 6 million dollars in a new smelting plant (more efficient which willl make more money in a long run) but only sell 5 million worth of ore, that counts as a million dollar loss, more like a 6 million dollar investment, if they can't afford it or think it won't make them money they wont do it

 

Actually no, they wouldn't show that as a 1 million dollare loss. With proper accounting, the 6 million dollar investment will be amortized over the life of the asset while the 5 million dollars in sales will be counted as revenue in the year.

 

when they show an independent audit saying they're in trouble i'll believe, until then expect some high officials to get a big bonus

 

Like all publically treaded companies, North American auto makers must have their financial results independandly audited every single year. Those independantly audited financial results show that Ford and GM are in big trouble.

 

 

edit: just thought of something, those bonuses count towards the losses also, isn't it ironic

 

You have a very good point. There often is a very large disconnect between upper management's performance and their compensation. This is also a contributing factor to the problems facing North American auto makers.

[seeking54]

The big 3 U.S auto maker are haemorrhaging, and it's only going to get worse..........Baby boomers are the major spenders and they will be inheriting billions of dollars in the next few years..........will a domestic vehicle be their first choice? The big 3 should reconsider their marketing approach since they been giving consumers what they wanted and not what they needed. We are now seeing how the big 3 have fallen behind in the car market and we will be reminded again in 5 years when it happens to the truck market.

[Tdel]

It is not just the pensions and unions that are causing the Big 3 their problems. When they were on top they didn't really care about their customers complaints or concerns. They knew they had problems with certain cars and instead of dealing with them they just kept pumping them out and to hell with their customers. Lose one customer and get another. Well, times have changed and what comes around goes around.

 

I bought a brand new F150 and within a year the paint was falling off. It was a two tone red and grey and the red was coming off in tiny pieces while the grey was coming off in huge chunks. I contacted Ford and complained. I had to go to my dealer for the "tape test". They put masking tape on the grey paint and pulled it off. Chunks of grey paint came off with the tape. When they did the test on the red nothing came off with the tape. They said they would paint the grey but not the red even though there was quite a bit of red missing. Less than one year after they repainted the grey I had rust pin holes in my door. The motor died after 6 years and I had 50,000 km on it. Never again will I buy a Ford.

 

I also bought a few GM's too. My Grand Prix had paint coming off in certain areas and I also noticed other Grand Prix's had the same problem in the same places. I went and talked to my GM service manager and he said that all Grand Prix's that were made around 93 had this problem because it was in the design of the car. He said GM knew about this but wouldn't make any changes. After 4 years the parade to the garage started replacing one part after another. I am pretty sure I replaced almost all the parts on the car including the gas tank.

 

I changed to Toyota in 2003. It was made in Cambridge Ontario.

 

Tom

[Big Cliff]

When I worked for INCO in the late 60's guys use to brag about how many hours sleep they could get on night shift while working on the back track. Many of them wanted steady night shift because they also had day jobs. (we were getting paid well). Graft was rampant and the general attitude seemed to be "do as little as possible and get as much as you can". Those are the same people that cried like heck when INCO's costs were getting out of control and INCO went off shore and started closing down the Sudbury operations.... I wonder why INCO would do something like that?

 

I drove nothing but Fords or GMs most of my life. Then I bought a Chev Cavalir, it was in the shop 9 times for major repairs in the first 75000 km. I contacted GM Customer Service and was told that the car had almost 80,000 km on it, I had to expect that a few little things would go wrong with it! Little things..... transmission twice, air conditioner twice, cylinder head....... fire under the dash..... I explained that in 80,000 they hadn't been able to get the thing to work right. After I threatened to paint lemons on the side of it and park it in front of the dealership (it now had 80,000) they finally agreed that they would have the dealership go over the car one more time and fix it but that was it! Cost them $1820.00 just in parts and I dumped the car the next day.

 

In 1998 I bought a Mazda 626; still runs like new, has cost me a total of $412.00 in repairs (not including normal maintainance... tires, oil changes...) Paint is still in excellent condition, doors, windows and everything else on the car still fits and works like the day it did when I drove it off the lot.

 

I also own a Nissan, I had some problems with my first one but they bent over backwards to take care of me, they even loaned me the managers new fully loaded truck to drive while they sorted out what was wrong with mine and when they finally got everything working perfectly, the credited me with seven weeks of lease payments to compensate me for my inconvenience. When my lease was up on that Nissan guess where I went to get my next one!

 

Friends went to buy a car from this same Nissan dealership. They couldn't get the car in for three weeks so the dealership LOANED, not leased, LOANED them a car until their new one got there.

 

When the big 3 learn to deliver that kind of quality and service I'll be happy to buy their products again but until then, I'll spend my money where I get the best value!

[Benthook]

Seeking54 mentioned......."We are now seeing how the big 3 have fallen behind in the car market and we will be reminded again in 5 years when it happens to the truck market."

 

I somehow think this may be little too late as well after seeing the Toyota Tundra advertisement right on the OFC site and it looks to me to be a pretty sharp looking truck. We probably thought we had the truck market cornered and that they would never even try to touch it but they have once again went that little step forward by making once again another vehicle look that touch more modern with there name backing the product. I will even admit that I for one base my purchase alot on looks buying a Chrysler Dodge Grand Caravan well knowing their history of bad tranny's but thought at the time it was American made and had the looks going for it. My guess is they have cornered the car and sport ute market now...I bet they will come up with an even sharper mini van next to out do ours.

 

http://www.toyotatundra.ca/thenewtundra_e.html#

 

I know I'm not helping the cause much but I just found it to be awfully ironic that this advert was posted on this site which is perfectly fine but raises my concerns even more to the now possibly vulnerable truck market.

 

I guess one of my biggest concerns to me at this point is down the road sooner then later when these imports completely corner the whole automotive market will they then import a vast greater number of parts from abroad ...while along that route more and more jobs are lost here....or are there strict regulations on this type of practice? I mean even the states has set up shop in Mexico only for there own American citizens to suffer and lose jobs...how sick is that....or in time will those same foreign companies simply set up shop here and hire us for a small fraction of what we may be making right now and as I have mentioned before the trickle down effect continues whether you think its somewhat rosey now or not. Will Ming Loi a newly founded Canadian citizen set up business here and sell all paper products to Toyota for eg. instead of an existing company that is completely Canadian bred that has been currently been supplying them for years...and then Ming...will he now buy from Trin...his cousin from china who has set up a wholesaler based out of Cambridge who recently set up shop as well....and who will Trin hire? Canadians Steve and mike right out of high school? or there Chinese son's and friends? and will both Ming and Trin buy all local computer's for there offices and get them serviced here? and will they outsource there vending to a local company or a new independent who happens to be of Chinese descent? and will that gentleman buy his product from price club or will he buy from Choi down the street another new food wholesaler and so on and so on and so on....the business may stay here in Canada but it wont be our true blue blood that runs the show anymore and well suffer on a financial level!

I for one own and operate my own vending machine business and have heard vicious rumours that once enough Asian business has set up they are going to introduce a line of vending equipment to the Canadian marketplace for get this ....half the price what we pay....lol...imagine that eh... you think this has all gone down quick...you wait till they own the industry how quickly the trickle down Asian influenced businesses take over ours

 

I truly believe by simply letting them set up shop here to the degree that we have done and supplying us with so much employment they are inadvertently slowly but surely getting a firm grip of our short and curly's without us even knowing and were all so tickled pink about our high paying cushy jobs created by these companies......we aren't even seeing the big picture down the road...ingenious buggers I say...and that road folks is becoming shorter and shorter...you just watch~! Reap the benefits now off this if your somehow affiliated with these foreign businesses cause your children sure as heck wont, they will be the true one's that will suffer from all of this.

 

As much as I believe the North American Automobile has to keep up with design and cost all other aspects to keep the customers loyal I will sure damn try my hardest to be proud of having an American product sitting in my driveway knowing I have helped support our own and keep born and bred business local or in time you who now benefit in someway or other from these foreign business practises will see how things change in the near future~!

 

The more hiring they set up here of Canadian citizens the more dependent we will become on them...it's happening already~!

 

In due time even this thread might get locked down...hopefully not if we keep it civil unless others start to take it too out of text...then this thread like this subject at hand will be put at the wayside just like how the American automobile makers have confronted there lacklustre decisions, competition and growth over the past few years and look where it has got them~!

 

Thanks for all the great feedback...I'm only shooting from the hip here...that's why I posted the topic to see how far off I may have been on the topic at hand or not.

 

Attached is that new Tundra I mentioned above~!

Edited January 27, 2007 by Benthook

[danc]

Starting this year, NASCAR will see Toyota join their popular racing series. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Toyota has been racing in NASCAR's Craftsman truck series for a few years now and is doing very well. Times are changing for sure.

 

[Gary George]

Two comments on this;

 

If you live in a 1 horse town, don't complain when that horse dies. I grew up in St. Catharines (a one horse town back then) every time GM farted we all got covered in poop! They have slowly faded into mediocraty in St. Catharines as well as the rest of North America. St. Catharines has been able to develop a more dynamic, less "one horse" dependant economy. Thats the reality of Global Economics, just try to stop that.

 

The philosophy of most unions, particularily the Auto Workers has been to create the most average demand possible on the worker. This can only lead to average or below average results. Think about it, "Shoot for the stars and hope for the moon" as the Japanese have done or the North American approach "Shoot for the moon and hope you don't miss". No plan B!!!!!!

 

I have always thought it was a huge economic mistake to allow unskilled workers to earn well above the skilled workers of our economy. That is what the unions have created throughout much of the Auto Industry. I have no idea what the starting wage on the floor in these plants is these days but I do know that trades people building our most important product and investment, the family home, are making considerably lower wages with little or no benefits. That isn't balanced or sustainable the result of that is what we're seeing now. In real estate they call it a "Market Correction"!!!!!!!!

 

People who want to work and prosper will be fine, the lazy and indifferent will remain just that.

 

I guess thats more than 2 comments, tough to say less on this. I drive a Cherokee and a Tacoma.

[wuchikubo]

I'm definitely not a supporter for unions, after looking at how foreign companies (referring to mostly Japanese) that make cars that don't have unions, it makes more sense for large companies that can see the benefits of keeping their staff happy so that they don't have to think about unions. Having said that, workers also have to reflect upon how the employer looks at the situation, what would a worker do in the position of an executive since their on the front line but need to relook at how to keep the company moving forward instead of treading in water. In the Big 3 cases, it seems more like how fast they can bail water out as the ship is sinking.

 

Keep in mind that foreign companies have also built auto plants here in Canada and have been producing good product as well. And correct me if my knowledge is outdated, but the last time I heard of a japanese plant looking at unionizing it was voted against by the worker, thus no union!

 

IMO, non-unionized companies have provided better product, better service, and a better bang for the buck.

 

HF

[Benthook]

I'm likely getting way ahead of myself now....imagine that eh but the simple fact that there are no union's organized in these Japanese automotive plants keeps there employee's wages high enough and happy enough to work there...who on earth is to say that when the poop really hits the fan and at least one or two of the three American based companies goes down the drain that these companies like Toyota and Honda are at that point untouchable and won't have your happy go lucky jobs for you and replaced by there own ethnicity citizens of Canada hence the lack of job security set up through a union~? but given that there probably smart enough not to do such a thing but grow all the trickle down business's at that point with us only pointing fingers at each other for all the mistakes we made~!

Edited January 27, 2007 by Benthook

[Jer]

I would hope that any major auto manufacturer (of any origin) wouldn't base their hiring practises on race (at least in this country). I'm sure that would be considered highly illegal and unethical and just wouldn't fly.

[Benthook]

So true Jer....just all their business affiliates down that ladder could then benefit as they did. It's hard to set up a business and grow it and make it successful. It's easy however at that point to purchase off whomever you want for all your products, services, and supplies that makes your business run successfully. I for example buy from and support family and friends and close acquaintances...I'm only assuming they will do the exact same thing...perhaps not yet...cause that's part of there whole scheming ingenious plan and when they do get in that big of a power position to do so without us being able to do much about it but watch they will do it, hands down...that I promise~! If my vending business grew to such a degree and my cousin opened a wholesaler local to me do you honestly think i'm going to support my cousin or do you think i'm going to keep buying off the wholesaler I have used up until that point You assumed right I would choose my cousin in a heart beat Or an even smarter approach would be to open my very own wholesaler because at that point I would own a huge portion of my existing business to then employ my family, friends, and/or acquaintances~!

 

Bottom line here is....fact of reality the Chinese are taking over strong and fast...so as far as I'm concerned if you work for or supply Ford or Chevrolet and something isn't done like insanely quick about this current situation you have better have wished you strap on your best padded hockey pants cause when the Chinese finally pull the carpet from under your skate's these highly priced jobs at these North American lack lustre companies you or someone you know is gonna hurt more then just their tailbones~! I guess at this point it's just something we all have to come to terms with....sad reality~!

Edited January 28, 2007 by Benthook

[Tybo]

People that think N.A are crap have no clue what they are talking about.

I'm a heavy equipment tech by trade.

I work out of the CP intermodel yard in vaughan.

A lot of the cp employees come up to ask us about vehicle problems.

90% are imports with low kms.

Most are still under warranty, they just want to know what before they

take it to the service mechanic so the job gets done right.

 

 

Recalls on N.A vehicles were unheard of until they started to use imported parts.

No one can make steel like Canada can. Unfortunately it's expensive.

 

For the 07 year, Japan, Korea and Germany all had cars denied to the N.A

market.

Due to either not making emmission or safty standards. Remember these cars are

built for export.

 

And here is another, 93 lumina sitting in my drive. The lumina was a piece of

crap compared to imports. So why do you see more luminas on the road

compared too old imports.

 

Also a lemon is a lemon. It doesn't matter whose tag is on it.

 

 

A 17 billion doller loss to a trillion doller corporation is like you losing 17 bucks.

 

 

HAVE A NICE DAY.

[Cookslav]

Totaly agree.

 

I drive nuthin but NA..

Chev actually, and I've never had any issues.

 

My First Car was a 83 Chevette I bought for $1200....

I drove that thing into the ground, and finaly had to give her up because an accident compriomised the frame, I think I'd still be driving that little spark plug if it wasn't for that accident...well maybe not now LOL

 

2nd car was a 1993 Chev Cavalier....ran it up to 375,000kms

It was used I bought it for $5500, and The only thing I bought for it was Gas oil, and a couple of tires, then I had a family and needed something bigger, and I figures the time was right...but I could very well have gone years longer wioth that car.

 

Third car errr...Van is a 2001 Chevy venture I picked up for $9000....still going strong, high milage, not a single issue, not single complaint.

 

My Uncle is a mechanic...

I buy all my cars from him, because he knows his stuff.

He works on my cars for free...If I need anything done I pay for the parts.

He refuses to buy foreign cars for that very reason.

He doesn't want to spend all his free time fixing my car for free.

 

His confidence in NA cars speaks volumes...

 

 

Funny part is when I compare my dollar to years ratio versus most of my freinds...

I've been driving Chev cars since 1992 and spent a grand total of $15,700

And maybe $2000 of maintenence.

 

I don't have a single friend or aquaintance to my knowlage who is not driving a car currently that they paid more then that for...

And if not I gaurentee they doubled or tripled My dollar per year ratio driving imports...not mention twice the headaches.

My wife is still driving her 1995 Sunfire...issue free.

A few minor repairs such as windshied wipers, and a leak in a fuel line...but other wise still a good reliable cost effective car.

 

But I guess I could just be reeeeely lucky

[Bernie]

Just to expand a bit on what DanC mentioned on NASCAR. The only car in the Nextel series built in USA will be the Toyota. Ironic. Ford Fusion built in Mexico, Chev & Dodge built in Canada. Nascar is primarily USA based racing. Lots of fans are upset about Toyota entering this year in the Nextel race series.