Ouch! Propane Heating Cost in the Kawartha's

[woodenboater]

If I was heating primarily with wood (which we may do when we retire up north) I'd be looking at one of these processors. Bit spendy but beats bucking and splitting in separate stages. LIke smitty55, get a load of logs and yer off to the races.

 

http://www.blackscreek.ca/?page_id=144

[captpierre]

Glad your prices have come back down to earth -still a ways to go

Edited March 1, 2014 by captpierre

[lew]

Glad your prices have come back down to earth.

 

Their nowhere near pre-winter prices yet, but there's hope on the horizon.

[manjo39]

Propane Heating costs this year are way more reasonable than last year. Hope this trend continues.

[Old Ironmaker]

Thank goodness we have NG, but not far down the lakeshore they do not have NG. That's crazy considering Selkirk was the "Gas Town" of Ontario for years. Still have Gasfest. Anyway Featherstone Ted signed a contract in October for 59 cents/lt. They were paying over 90 last year with no contract. All it took was a phone call to tell the provider to come and get the tank and they renegotiated the price to meet the competitors. If you don't ask you wont receive. No one wants to lose a customer.

[Rod Caster]

This winter is definitely not as harsh as last year. I'm still burning a good pile of wood though; but I do that coz I'm cheap and I have the property to cut from

Yep, propane prices are nice this winter. 0.64/l. I've spent about $300 on propane this winter which includes heat/water and cooking stove

[Big Cliff]

Propane Heating costs this year are way more reasonable than last year. Hope this trend continues.

My last fill was $0.55/L, less than half what I was paying this time last year and we are using less too. Not sure if the new roof has anything to do with it or it might not be quite as cold.

[Old Ironmaker]

By reading the amount of wood some have you gone through it tells me this winter has been colder than last year. Last year was the coldest down south here that I can remember. There were a few nights that I stayed up and filled every container, jug, mug, glass, did every piece of laundry and wasted a load of water to run the pump every 25 minutes. We had 60 knot winds blowing off the lake. If I waited 30 minutes there was slush in the line from the cistern. It was the coldest night in my life save for a few crazy nights at E Blast Furnace keeping every known fluid known to man from freezing, including Hot Metal at 2700F, freezing is 2300F. This year has been a walk in the park, a warm park compared to last winter, so far. I have insulated this place to the max. That in a nutshell is the key to thermal efficiency. Creating a thermal break is paramount to fuel efficiency. Without a true thermal break you would be surprised at the heat loss. I have been thinking about pulling off the siding and spraying the perimeter 100% with closed cell isostyrene insulation. I walk around here with a smoke flare checking for leaks as this place moves up and down back and forth during the crazy high winds here on the point.

A good heat loss survey could save you folks thousands in the long run knowing where to tighten up and insulate. 30% of heat loss is through the floor. If you don't need shoes or slippers in the winter and bare feet are cool in the summer you are almost half way to energy efficiency.

 

I heat 1200 sqft of ground floor with around $130.00 per month in Natural Gas including stove, hot water, dryer and BBQ, and supplement cold nights with 2 oil filled electric portables at 600W during the night, 900 to 1200 on -20c plus wind, and there are nights 1500W is a must. Those nights we sleep in the loft where it's 75F. If it were not for the spiral staircase and my weak bladder we would be up there every night like 5 years ago. We know when to head up there, when the cat does we do. Then I turn the electrics to the lowest settings.

 

I don't read where or what you guys do to insulate or provide wind protection at your properties. A few strategically planted pines, dense cedar and spruce can do amazing things to break down wind flow that will result in energy savings that would amaze you over the years. My neighbor cut down a row of cedars that blocked the SW wind coming off lake a few summers ago due to the view. He was latter amazed to find how cold the cottage was that next winter, a better view though. I have a partner too that gets 1 more vote than I do.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Old Ironmaker

[Gerritt]

By reading the amount of wood some have you gone through it tells me this winter has been colder than last year. Last year was the coldest down south here that I can remember. There were a few nights that I stayed up and filled every container, jug, mug, glass, did every piece of laundry and wasted a load of water to run the pump every 25 minutes. We had 60 knot winds blowing off the lake. If I waited 30 minutes there was slush in the line from the cistern. It was the coldest night in my life save for a few crazy nights at E Blast Furnace keeping every known fluid known to man from freezing, including Hot Metal at 2700F, freezing is 2300F. This year has been a walk in the park, a warm park compared to last winter, so far. I have insulated this place to the max. That in a nutshell is the key to thermal efficiency. Creating a thermal break is paramount to fuel efficiency. Without a true thermal break you would be surprised at the heat loss. I have been thinking about pulling off the siding and spraying the perimeter 100% with closed cell isostyrene insulation. I walk around here with a smoke flare checking for leaks as this place moves up and down back and forth during the crazy high winds here on the point.

A good heat loss survey could save you folks thousands in the long run knowing where to tighten up and insulate. 30% of heat loss is through the floor. If you don't need shoes or slippers in the winter and bare feet are cool in the summer you are almost half way to energy efficiency.

 

I heat 1200 sqft of ground floor with around $130.00 per month in Natural Gas including stove, hot water, dryer and BBQ, and supplement cold nights with 2 oil filled electric portables at 600W during the night, 900 to 1200 on -20c plus wind, and there are nights 1500W is a must. Those nights we sleep in the loft where it's 75F. If it were not for the spiral staircase and my weak bladder we would be up there every night like 5 years ago. We know when to head up there, when the cat does we do. Then I turn the electrics to the lowest settings.

 

I don't read where or what you guys do to insulate or provide wind protection at your properties. A few strategically planted pines, dense cedar and spruce can do amazing things to break down wind flow that will result in energy savings that would amaze you over the years. My neighbor cut down a row of cedars that blocked the SW wind coming off lake a few summers ago due to the view. He was latter amazed to find how cold the cottage was that next winter, a better view though. I have a partner too that gets 1 more vote than I do.

That sounds a bit extreme to heat your place in the winter.... I am curious about its construction and why you need electric to supplement your furnace

 

G

[Old Ironmaker]

We don't have a furnace. The primary heat source is a 45,000 BTU gas fireplace. No duct work. I just can't get the heat to the back rooms. Is $130.00 a month in NG considering all appliances except the fridge extreme? It's very , very cold here on the shoreline of Erie with that wind blowing hard, constantly. The lakeside gable end is more windows than walls. That's a killer but why look over the lake if you can't see it? Hydro is around $90.00 a month in winter and less than $90.00 in summer with 1 old window unit and a portable A/C unit. Gas in summer is less than $30.00. Seldom are the 2 electric units cranked, I often shut them off when we get up in the AM. I would have had to tear out new exterior and interior walls to put in forced air as code calls for 4" ductwork and the walls are only 4" thick (true dimensional 2X4). It was a tough decision but we would have lost valuable space for the furnace, trunkline and returns upstairs. I never ever thought we move here full time. Some nights and hot humid days I question the why didn't I but can live with it. It is a storey and a half balloon construction and I blew in isostyrene between the 2X4 studs and in the 2X6 ceiling but can do better by furring out the exterior walls with 2X4's , spraying the walls and creating a full thermal break. .

 

edit, I just asked my wife how much the last bill was and she said Decembers was $115.00. She said if I paid a bill once and a while I would know, smarty pants. So Januarys would be close at 130. I don't dare ask her exactly what Hydro is.

 

Edit again, 07:00 AM. I always say if you don't know what the price of tatters are don't go into the French Fry biz.

Yea Hydro is $90.00 a month, in October, Try $255.00 for the bill I just looked at for January. Can anyone tell me what a "clean energy credit" is and why there is a 10% credit for it? Does it apply to everyone?

Edited February 6, 2015 by Old Ironmaker

[Rod Caster]

By reading the amount of wood some have you gone through it tells me this winter has been colder than last year. Last year was the coldest down south here that I can remember.

Most of the posts on this thread are from last year. It's quite apparent that last year was colder than our current winter.

 

The 10% clean energy credit applies to the first 3,000kw's used in a month. After 3000kw, you don't get the credit

[Raf]

We don't have a furnace. The primary heat source is a 45,000 BTU gas fireplace. No duct work. I just can't get the heat to the back rooms. Is $130.00 a month in NG considering all appliances except the fridge extreme? It's very , very cold here on the shoreline of Erie with that wind blowing hard, constantly. The lakeside gable end is more windows than walls. That's a killer but why look over the lake if you can't see it? Hydro is around $90.00 a month in winter and less than $90.00 in summer with 1 old window unit and a portable A/C unit. Gas in summer is less than $30.00. Seldom are the 2 electric units cranked, I often shut them off when we get up in the AM. I would have had to tear out new exterior and interior walls to put in forced air as code calls for 4" ductwork and the walls are only 4" thick (true dimensional 2X4). It was a tough decision but we would have lost valuable space for the furnace, trunkline and returns upstairs. I never ever thought we move here full time. Some nights and hot humid days I question the why didn't I but can live with it. It is a storey and a half balloon construction and I blew in isostyrene between the 2X4 studs and in the 2X6 ceiling but can do better by furring out the exterior walls with 2X4's , spraying the walls and creating a full thermal break. .

 

edit, I just asked my wife how much the last bill was and she said Decembers was $115.00. She said if I paid a bill once and a while I would know, smarty pants. So Januarys would be close at 130. I don't dare ask her exactly what Hydro is.

 

Edit again, 07:00 AM. I always say if you don't know what the price of tatters are don't go into the French Fry biz.

Yea Hydro is $90.00 a month, in October, Try $255.00 for the bill I just looked at for January. Can anyone tell me what a "clean energy credit" is and why there is a 10% credit for it? Does it apply to everyone?

Ours is about an 1600 ft backsplit, we have a NG furnace that's about 9-10 years old and supplement with wood stove (bush cord per winter) for heat, NG stove. We keep it at 69/73 night/day, she jumps to 75+ when the wood stove is firing. Water heater is electric as is the dryer. Our gas bill is $60/month (equal billing) hydro is about 130 a little more in the summer when the AC is on hydro also includes our water/sewer. I will be replacing the water heater and maybe the dryer with NG units if retrofitting them in will be cost effective (lines are already in basement so it should be).

 

Windy days definately make a big difference in our place too.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Raf

[wormdunker]

Very good info here. Thanx for sharing. Please explain "thermal break". I have 2200 square feet of living space not including the basement. My NG bill is $135.00 per month year round. My furnace (5 year old Carrier high efficiency), dryer, hot water tank & BBQ are on NG. Electricity bill is $85.00 per month. Our house is well insulated (I installed it), attic has 12" blown in. I feel my gas & electricity bills are OK. For 25 years I burned 12 - 15 face cord of wood per season. I was fortunate to get most of my wood for free - except for the labor which was OK while I was younger. I haven't burned wood for 3 years & find the basement floor very cold. OH - airtight was in the basement family room. So it was very cozy while burning wood. Another question - Is the "dry core" sub floor worth the expense? That's the 2' x 2' squares with the plastic dimples against the concrete. I want to finally finish off the lower basement (laundry & mechanical room). Is dry core the solution or should I use 1 1/2" styro SM in between 2x4s laid flat for a sub floor? Please comment.

[bigbuck]

Dunker, you can use the plastic dimpled membrane they use to protect foundations on new homes. It comes in a big roll, roll it out to size, cover with tongue and groove plywood and nail down with concrete nails. Cheaper and same thing pretty much. We did that in my basement and the floor is nice and warm.

[wormdunker]

big buck - thanx, I'll definitely look into that. I priced out the styro SM, 2x4s & 9/16" T & G & believe it or not the drycore was a little cheaper. I'll crunch some numbers & let you know. Your idea sounds better due to buying the waterproof membrane in bulk.

[Old Ironmaker]

wormdunker I have used Dri-Core with good results. It will not give you an R value of any great degree but if your floor is below the frost line it is not imperative to insulate that floor. It will save your flooring from damage due to minor basement leaks, not floods, because it allows the water to drain between the dimples to the drain below. No hardwood or ceramics should be laid on Dri Core. I have never used the basement foundation membrane, make sure it is safe for indoor application, not all materials are.

 

A fantastic explanation for Thermal break is in Wikipedia under Thermal break. (sorry this site won't allow me to cut and paste).

 

Simply a break is where any substance or material that isolates the building envelope and the elements. Inert gas between 2 panes of glass is a Thermal break. Caulking between the window frame and the window itself is a Thermal break. Insulation of any kind between dimensional lumber does not create a Thermal break. Think of this, I have a wall constructed of 2X6's, there is no insulation on either side of the interior or exterior of the 2X6 when we traditionally insulate in this fashion. Add up all the 2X6's that have zero insulation on either side of the interior or exterior of the 2X6. Now put all the 2X6's that are on all 4 or more exterior walls side by side. Depending on the length of the walls imagine how much linear space has only house wrap, vapour barrier, 5.5" of softwood and sheathing between you and the exterior weather. zero insulation. Same goes for Cathedral ceilings where trusses are 16" on centre. That's a lot of uninsulated home. Spray insulation on the entire exterior wall and you have a thermal break.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Old Ironmaker

[ch312]

You can most definitely put tile or hardwood over Dricore, assuming you follow their instructions for fastening the panels properly and using the proper underlay. With tile you'd use normal tile backer board of your choice and for hardwood you'd lay plywood first.

[wormdunker]

Excellent info here - thanx for your input. Ironmaker - You explained the thermal break very well. Thanx. I can definitely see where there is no insulation value if you were to push all the framing members tight to one another. I'll investigate the use of foundation material for interior use as well. I don't agree with your statement 'below the frost line is not imperative to insulate that floor." Right now that part of the basement floor is very cold. To demonstrate to wifey - I placed a piece of styro SM on the floor. Instructed her to stand on the concrete with bare feet for a minute or so - Now stand on the piece of styro. I think you know the answer. Now add a layer of T & G plywood & lets say laminate flooring - even better! I've read a lot as you spread your "words of wisdom" to the OFC members. LOL!

ch312 - I did read where it is acceptable to lay laminate, hardwood or tile on drycore. Thanx for your input. Now stop typing & go catch some fish!! That goes for you as well Ironmaker!

[Old Ironmaker]

I had and my former partness still does a business where we did only basement reno's. Not one or two, over a 100. PM me if you would like. Now lets go fishin' first.