home furnace and central air question, NF

[chris.brock]

we are considering replacing our AC, it's really weak and when the hot weather comes it runs steady but we're still roasting

 

for the guys with some knowledge

 

-should we replace the furnace and AC together? furnace is 27 years old but works fine

-what brands are recommended?

-any installers in the GTA that would be recommended?

 

thanks in advance

Chris

[ccmtcanada]

When you say it's weak, do you mean it's not cold air or the flow of air is weak? It could be your blower motor needs replaced. When I had central air installed, I also replaced the 20 year old furnace as well because they gave me a deal if I got both at the same time. I used "aire one" for the job...I didn't get the most expensive models....but 10 years later both are still going strong. The salesman I spoke to said even the lowest brand names will have much better efficiency (furnace) than anything 20 years old.

[chris.brock]

When you say it's weak, do you mean it's not cold air or the flow of air is weak? It could be your blower motor needs replaced. When I had central air installed, I also replaced the 20 year old furnace as well because they gave me a deal if I got both at the same time. I used "aire one" for the job...I didn't get the most expensive models....but 10 years later both are still going strong. The salesman I spoke to said even the lowest brand names will have much better efficiency (furnace) than anything 20 years old.

air flow (blower) is fine, the air isn't very cold

 

thanks for the reply ccmt

[Roe Bag]

air flow (blower) is fine, the air isn't very cold

 

thanks for the reply ccmt

Could just require a top up or recharge. Over time the refrigerant within the system can be gradually compressed.

Guages will be required to asses the current levels.

If it's an old system the refrigerant will very expensive. It will be freon and as it is being phased out the price has gone sky high.

 

As for a 27 year old furnace, my biggest concern would be not if it will die, but when. You don't want to be stuck without heat in the dead of Winter.

 

Currently there are grants available for upgrading to high efficiency equipment. They apply to both heating and air conditioning.

I'd be taking a serious look if my unit was that old.

Hope this helps.

[woodenboater]

If you can afford it I'd suggest upgrading your furnace to a hi efficiency unit and instead of central air, I'd go ductless. Makes sense if you think about it, cold air is denser so instead of pushing it up 2 or 3 floors, let it drop down.

 

or get a portable a/c unit for the time being as these seem to be really affordable now.

Edited June 17, 2013 by woodenboater

[craigdritchie]

Chris,

 

It is almost always more cost-effective to replace both the AC and furnace at the same time. Most (but not all) AC units have at least some of their major components located inside the house, physically attached to the furnace. Replace the AC and furnace separately, and you'll be paying twice for a big chunk of labour cost. You save a lot of money by doing them together.

 

As kwikfish notes, you may be able to get by simply by recharging the refrigerant in your current unit. But consider that a short-term solution to get you through this year. By spring, you will likely find yourself in exactly the same position as you are now.

 

If both units are 20+ years old, the best scenario would be to replace them both with new, high-efficiency units. We did this in our house two years ago. Total cost was a bit over $11,000. However, the new stuff works so well that our utility bills are now a fraction of what they were before. Those savings, along with some rebate cash we got from the government as part of a home energy rebate program, will cover the entire cost of the new AC and furnace within six years.

 

Strongly suggest you look into rebate programs from both the federal and provincial governments. I don't know what's available right now, but when we did ours there were pretty good incentives available from both.

 

Feel free to PM if you want more details.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Craig_Ritchie

[aplumma]

Chris,

 

It is almost always more cost-effective to replace both the AC and furnace at the same time. Most (but not all) AC units have at least some of their major components located inside the house, physically attached to the furnace. Replace the AC and furnace separately, and you'll be paying twice for a big chunk of labour cost. You save a lot of money by doing them together.

 

As kwikfish notes, you may be able to get by simply by recharging the refrigerant in your current unit. But consider that a short-term solution to get you through this year. By spring, you will likely find yourself in exactly the same position as you are now.

 

If both units are 20+ years old, the best scenario would be to replace them both with new, high-efficiency units. We did this in our house two years ago. Total cost was a bit over $11,000. However, the new stuff works so well that our utility bills are now a fraction of what they were before. Those savings, along with some rebate cash we got from the government as part of a home energy rebate program, will cover the entire cost of the new AC and furnace within six years.

 

Strongly suggest you look into rebate programs from both the federal and provincial governments. I don't know what's available right now, but when we did ours there were pretty good incentives available from both.

 

Feel free to PM if you want more details.

X2

 

 

Art

[grimsbylander]

I just replaced my 4 year old mid-effiency furnace and A/C with a high effiency package. I did it because I have a friend who owns a HVAC company and only that made it cost effective. For someone looking to upgrade and not spend big bucks, picking up a good used unit is another option.

[bassmaster4]

As was already stated it works out better financially to get both at once, and your A/C will cool better and run more efficiently teamed up with a high efficiency furnace.

[lookinforwalleye]

Depending on your situation you may want to look into a air source heatpump (ductless) cools in the summer and bonus heat in the winter and shoulder seasons.

[Tomcat]

The first furnace in the house I purchased 31 years ago was 65% efficient (so 35% of the energy went up the chimney). The furnace I have now is a high efficiency model running at about 93% efficiency. Consequently, when you can achieve energy savings of approximately 30% and the government is prepared to provide you a financial incentive to make the change, IMHO, its a no-brainer. I'm aware that natural gas is and has been cheap for a while now but that is not going to last forever.

 

Natural Resources Canada has published a brochure (PDF) - see http://publications.gc.ca/collections/Collection/M91-23-7-2003E.pdf that discusses air conditioning and provides a formula to be able to compare annual operating costs of various air conditioners. If your central air conditioner is an older model, it probably has a Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio (SEER) of approximately 6. Its been illegal to sell central air conditioners with less than a SEER rating of 10 for several years now. And depending on your cost of electricity, you might want to consider purchasing an air conditioner with a higher SEER rating (e.g. 12, 13, 14 etc). The formula provided by the brochure allows anyone to calculate their annual operating costs for air conditioning and thus compare annual energy costs for various SEER rated air conditioners.

 

I presently have a central air conditioner rated at 10 SEER. Since the government is offering financial incentives to upgrade to higher SEER rated air conditioners, I did the calculations to determine whether or not I should spend the dollars to upgrade. In my area, Eastern Ontario, my annual savings from a 14.5 SEER unit over a 10 SEER unit would amount to $55 (cost of electricity used was $0.11 per kWh). At that rate of savings, my pay back period is 65 years. Consequently, a no go. Even at $0.15 per kWh, my pay back period would be 49 years.

 

Suffice to say that there are government resources out there to facilitate your calculations.

 

[vance]

You might want to go outside and check to make sure the unit is not blocked with weeds or debris.Hose the cooling fins with a wide pattern spray(not a jet).you will be surprised by how much dirt and what ever comes out limiting the cooling ability of the condenser.If that doesnt work refer to previous posts.

 

vance

[NANUK]

You mentioned the furnace is 27 years old, How old is the A.C ?

Right now is prime time for any good HVAC technician, Most are busy and you will probably pay a premium for a new install.

If you just want to buy some time, get the A.C checked, chances are its low on charge, (contrary to the popular myth, the refrigerant inside the system does not get consumed or get "depressed"). It means there IS a leak !

By law the technician will have to find and fix the leak before he can top it up, Depending on the location of leak, it might get costly. it might be as simple as a leaking access fitting, or as major as a leaking evaporator coil.

like mentioned above, check the condensing unit outside, it might be plugged with weeds/debris, If it is dirty/plugged, turn the power to the outside unit OFF before washing with water, keep the water spray away from the fan motor and electrical panel, wait a few hours before you turn it ON.

Better not to mix electricity and water, best to call a certified tech.

As for replacement, Always more cost-effective to replace both furnace and AC at the same time, better deals in early spring or fall.

Stick with forced air system like you currently have, simple and better air distribution,

Ductless splits are for places with no ducts and involves running pipes and wires through the walls, not to mention condensate drains.

I would stay away from Heat pumps as well.

[chris.brock]

You mentioned the furnace is 27 years old, How old is the A.C ?

 

the AC is original also, 27 years old

thanks for all the great replies, that helps out huge Edited June 18, 2013 by chris.brock

[leaf4]

Look into a DC furnace, it costs more up front but the savings down the road are amazing, over 10 years the savings per month add up and it's paid for itself in those savings

 

I'm a sheet metal apprentice so if you have any questions PM me and I can talk to one of the refrigeration guys I work with and get back to you.

[kickingfrog]

My A/C unit is outside. Why would I have to let it dry before turning it back on? I don't have to worry about rain. Gentle water spray, not jet as mentiond. No different then a regular rain.

[NANUK]

My A/C unit is outside. Why would I have to let it dry before turning it back on? I don't have to worry about rain. Gentle water spray, not jet as mentiond. No different then a regular rain.

 

Simply to allow for human error, unit is designed to withstand rain from the top, there is usually a rain guard on top of the condenser fan motor, a side spray might get water in to places you don't want.

A gentle water spray is not going to clean much out of a plugged coil, you need to see water come out the other side of coil, might get some spray on the motor or electrical, thats why best to call some one qualified.