If I can paddle it, can I fish it?

[passthepitonspete]

Hey guys,

 

Today I am going to take a paddle down a Lake Ontario trib called Bronte Creek. Parts of the river are open to fishing, most of it is not. I'm not even taking a fishing rod. I just want to go canoeing. At least until opening day. {wink}

 

There are a few great fishing holes along the way that are easily accessed by canoe. I remember fishing one years ago after opening day with my dad, and the landowner walked a quarter-mile across the field to kick us out. "It's a family fishing hole," he said. "We don't let anyone else fish it."

 

At the time the landowner kicked us out, we were sitting in canoe, floating in a pool and anchored to the bottom with a rock on a rope. We weren't tied to a tree. If you are going to fish from a canoe in a river, you probably need to be held in place, so how you do this is relevant. We also could have gotten out of the canoe, stood on the bottom of the stream, and fished that way. But we didn't want to push our luck. We left without arguing and went to the next hole. It's pretty easy in a canoe.

 

The creek is definitely navigable by canoe, and this is important in deciding whether you have legal access to the waters, and can fish it or not. But if you can paddle it, it is definitely considered to be "navigable."

 

Now I read of several Ontario legal rulings that state that the streambed is usually Crown Land, and accordingly you have access to the legally fish the river. But there can be exceptions which I don't fully understand.

 

Here are some interesting links I have found:

 

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/stdprodconsume/groups/lr/@mnr/@crownland/documents/document/mnr_e000115.pdf

 

http://www.ontariofishingforums.com/forum/topic/17522-who-owns-rivers-in-canada/

 

http://www.greybruceoutdoors.com/guestwriters/ChrisHutton-navigablewaters.shtml

 

 

So my questions are this:

 

1. If I can paddle it, can I fish it?

 

2. Do I have to stay in the canoe, or could I stand on the bed of the stream?

 

3. I guess if I'm standing on the bed of the stream, I can't beach the canoe, right? Because the landowner owns the banks, right? Do I have to tie a rope around my waist and attach that to the canoe?

 

4. I see in some of the writings above that the "high water mark" doesn't really mean much. Thoughts?

 

5. What is stopping anyone who wants to fish the creek from parking their car at a bridge, and walking along the bed of the stream to fish it. This is assuming that the creek is indeed navigable, like Bronte Creek, so that you could paddle a canoe down it, but it is also small and shallow enough that you could also wade it if you chose to. So basically, you would be walking through someone's land and fishing, but always standing on the streambed. You would think that if there is a no trespassing sign, that would have to keep people out, wouldn't it?

 

6. There is no sixth question.

 

 

I am looking for two kinds of answers:

 

- practical experience answers from guys like us who wade streams and/or fish from a canoe. What do you say when you're fishing from a canoe, and a landowner asks you to leave? What do you do? Have you had "run-ins" with landowners?

 

- legal interpretations from people who actually understand the law and how it applies to these situations

 

 

I don't post here very often, but if you look you will find a really nice photo essay I made of a trip in Algonquin Park with my dad a few years ago. That post took about twenty or thirty hours to make, incidentally.

 

If this question has already been answered on the forum, could you please provide a link? But some of these rulings seem to be new, so I am looking for the most up-to-date info.

 

Thanks for your help.

Cheers, eh?

Pete

[BillM]

I'm fairly certain there aren't any parts of Bronte with have been granted streambed rights... Even if there were, you could fish it from a canoe as long as you weren't touching bottom (ie anchored)

 

As far as landowners are concerned, I try to be friendly and open a conversation.. If they aren't having it and just want me to leave, I oblige. Nothing to get in a huff over. However, if I'm within my legal right to fish if standing in the stream itself, that's what I'll do.

[Rich]

Yeah, pretty common ruling.

 

If it's navigable, you can fish it in your canoe. Or get out and wade. Your canoe can never touch bottom.

[chessy]

Don't know about the river your talking about but the ganny you must look into the patan deed held at the mnr offic and get a ruling on the way the interpret it. Here just because you can paddle it don't mean you can access it

[Jon]

Good questions and not the first time they have been asked. (although I can't find the thread). Here is a link to a legal ruling on the Credit. The dam is in Norval. In short, the river was navigable and the defendants did not own the bed, but the plaintiffs did not have a right of portage.

 

Full link is here:

http://www.interlog.com/~erhard/credit.htm

 

 

Jon

[Dave Bailey]

Politely apprise the landowner of the fact that they cannot own the water. If they persist, enlighten them about the law. I carry two copies of this with me at all times, just in case the person tears up the first one after I hand it to them (which hasn't happened yet):

 

 

Fish & Wildlife Act 1997

Obstruction of hunting, trapping or fishing

13. (1) A person shall not interfere with lawful hunting, trapping or fishing by,

a) tampering with traps, nets, bait, firearms or any other thing used for hunting, trapping or fishing;

b ) placing himself or herself in a position, for the purpose of interfering, that hinders or prevents hunting, trapping or fishing; or

c) engaging in an activity, for the purpose of interfering, that disturbs or is likely to disturb wildlife or fish.

Notice without authority

(2) A person shall not purport to give notice that entry to premises is prohibited for the purpose of hunting or fishing or that hunting or fishing is prohibited on premises unless the person has authority to give the notice. 1997, c. 41, s. 13.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Dave Bailey

[pics]

Has the omnibus bill not changed all this??

[Dave Bailey]

Has the omnibus bill not changed all this??

 

As far as I know it changed the definition of 'navigable waterway', but I don't think it has anything to do with fishing.

[cisco]

Really poor judgement on that Credit River ruling. Useless really. These rulings don't seem to take into account that folks used the rivers before and after the new landowner bought in. IMHO anyone buying land with a river flowing through should be aware or aught to be aware that people float down through the property. 'Buyer beware' in that a landowner can't change use of the river since purchase price took into account or aught to have taken into account (been raised or lowered) the use of the river by others. Useless decision to have th judge say folks can float down it but can't portage around the dam. Any evidence of a portage would demonstrate that folks had been using a path around the obstruction and again, just my opinion, that a right of way had been established... this based on recollection that if a person had been cutting through your property for...7 years I recall.. then they had a right of way and can't be prevented. That's why landowners send the neighbour a letter each year saying they can't use a laneway for a specific day (usually when they wouldn't anyways like middle of winter) just to keep this right-of-way thing from happening.

 

If a portage trail has been found and no track of letters/public announcements had gone out to anyone since 1886 or whenever the dam was built, then the portage route really should be a right-of-way. IMO building of the dam a coupla hundred years ago would legally imply doing so in consideration of maintaining the river passage.

 

Oh and say a landowner bought beside a stinky chicken farm or an airport......... good luck getting it closed because the landowner doesn't like the smell or noise. Same kinda issue here really, no?

 

Really think the judges dropped the ball on this one. Didn't look deep enough taking local/provincial and federal regs all into account.

[beagle dad]

trespassing is a big issue

before you paddle it make 100% sure have copy of mnr and land office decision with you to show police

have been involved with this issue in the past can be very time consuming and expensive

 

 

not really worth the fight imo

[kemper]

If you haven't been there is a while the water levels might surprise you. Most of the year, you couldn't paddle a canoe through much of that creek.

[d_paluch]

I live on Bronte Creek.

 

Let me tell you, you'll have a hard time canoeing past the Rebecca St. Bridge. Never tried fishing south of the bridge, but I know its considered a sanctuary (maybe only certain times of the year?). Don't really know the specifics but I am sure someone here can help you more

[passthepitonspete]

Thanks everyone for your answers. These are indeed interesting and relevant concerns that we all ought to understand. The ruling regarding the inability to portage around a dam on the Credit River is perplexing. Is this dam on the main part of the Credit, or a side stream? I paddled from Terra Cotta to Highway 5 last year, so wondering if I crossed this dam?

 

Bronte Creek was most assuredly paddleable and hence navigable yesterday, easily and happily from Lowville Park all the way down to the QEW, and presumably beyond to Rebecca Street, Bronte Harbour, Lake Ontario, and the St. Lawrence River all the way to the 'lantic Ocean. {wink} There were plenty of 'bows in evidence, too, most often startled in swift-flowing gravel-bedded sections about a foot deep. Probably lots in the pools, too. While Bronte Creek could never be paddled in the summer due to low water, it's in decent shape now, and will be superb for paddling this week with the coming rains which are forecast. We had a bit of "bump and grind" here and there, and there are numerous obstacles consisting of fallen trees across the narrow river. Suffice it to say, all three of us spent plenty of time falling out of our canoes, getting soaked and halfways hypothermic. It was what you might call "Class 2 Fun" - it was definitely an Adventure, but fortunately did not make the progression to an Epic.

 

Here and there, you will see "No Trespassing" and "No Fishing" signs. O'Really? So once again I ask, what is stopping anyone from jumping into the water under a bridge, and wading along the river bottom, whilst fishing one's way along?

 

Great advice about printing out appropriate paperwork, and handing it to the landowner if challenged. It's hard to believe a cop could catch you, or would bother to catch you, if called, merely to write you a ticket for trespassing. Wouldn't it be fun to see a pair of Halton's Finest standing in the river under a bridge, ready to capture you as you paddled beneath? Hmm, they wouldn't shoot, would they? Actually, they might, because the SIU charges hundreds of cops every year, and only convicts two, so odds are in their favour.

 

There are any number of remote places you could stop to fish at will, and never be seen by anyone. It's a beautiful stream, for sure, with some fabulous remote pools. I bet with the late spring, there will still be fish present after opening day. If I weren't heading up to Algonquin, I might give it a go.

 

Anyone ever been written a trespassing ticket for wading a stream? Did you fight it? Did you win? Aren't there any Lie-yers here who fish, and who could interpret some of these rulings?

 

Concur on it not being worth the fight. I would jump in my boat and run. There is always another great pool around the next corner!

[beagle dad]

have been physically removed by the authorities on more than 1 river for trespassing

simple ticket NOT!!!!! VERY EXPENSIVE....KNOW BEFORE YOU GO IS THE JUDGES ANSWER...

depending on who owns property..you would not be able to afford it..

case in point EMILY LAKE...off sturgeon lake,,,,actually deeded to hunt club...doctors lawyers judges police all members...good luck with that fight

and it can be accessed by boat and motor

[Dave Bailey]

Concur on it not being worth the fight. I would jump in my boat and run. There is always another great pool around the next corner!

 

Oh, let's not be so hasty about not standing up for our rights. Otherwise they may be lost. If someone tells you that you cannot fish where you plainly can, and they have no authority to tell you, don't just give in.

[passthepitonspete]

A couple other places come to mind, sounding similar to Emily Lake mentioned above.

 

In Long Point Bay in Lake Erie, there is a large area of water roped off with buoys that is owned or leased by a private group, I believe they are Merricans. Heaven help you if you are caught in there! Clearly navigable. But no rite of passage? It's not like you "have" to pass through their waters if you want to boat from Canada to the States. But you *do* have to pass through buddy's land on Bronte Creek if you want to boat from Lowville to Lake Ontario.

 

Another place is up west of Minden, east of Couchaching. It is the Longford Reserve, and this township of Longford has been leased by the same Merricans since 1899. Different rules than Long Point? Perhaps. Canoeists are allowed to paddle and portage through, and go fishing as well. Hell, you can even land a float plane there if you want to. You just can't camp on the shore. And I don't know if you can anchor to the bottom, either. And travelling between lakes, you have to follow the portages. I was once told by the MNR that Longford is "vigorously and aggressively patrolled" by its caretaker. Well, bully for him. I would like to paddle through sometime, just because I can. And catch a big fish. And then let him go.

 

Beagle Dad and Dave Bailey - I would love to hear your stories. You have to pick and choose your battles, because it sure is pointless fighting something you know you can't win. Three thousand years ago [probably] Solomon made this clear when he wrote, "there is a time to fish, and a time to run like hell." Or something like that.

 

Anyone been busted for wading a stream? How did you make out?

 

Incidentally, I'm not trying to be a pain or a troublemaker. I am merely out to have fun, enjoy the river, and catch and release a fish or two. I would always respect a landowner's land, and keep the place neat and tidy. We left no trace of our passage yesterday, except a few elbow-shaped divots in the streambed here and there when we were falling out.

 

But if it's our right as Canadians to paddle, wade and fish a river, then we really ought to take advantage of our heritage and our opportunity. Beauty, eh?

Edited April 7, 2013 by passthepitonspete

[Roy]

With the hundreds of thousand waterways and many more areas to fish, I'm happy to fish where it's quiet and where I know I won't be hassled. My fishing days are too few to be spending them arguing with people about rights, permissions etc...

[beagle dad]

if every would be conscious of the land keeping it clean tidy etc..then there would not be as much of an issue

however have you not been along these rivers where the public has access most are just trash collections...

if I was a landowner not sure i'd have any different attitude...

you know it doesn't cost anything to ask permission

have acquired some sweet rights to fishing holes by cleaning them up for the landowners..

[ketchenany]

With the hundreds of thousand waterways and many more areas to fish, I'm happy to fish where it's quiet and where I know I won't be hassled. My fishing days are too few to be spending them arguing with people about rights, permissions etc...

.

I have property with a stream that divides the property. I'm not allowed to devide it or even build on it because it "may be" a spawning ground off of the Notty. The only thing in there is muskrat and chub! I have never seen trout or salmon, then I've never checked it out close.

It may not be big enough to canoe, but I have never seen anyone trying it. Please respect private property and just ask if you want to access it. If you blink you will miss it anyway.

 

I have been asked by an OFC member to use the property to hunt and if it was not for a partner, he was most welcome to use it, I have never met him but trust him to use it properly.

 

people are very protective of their land and use, please respect it as if it was yours. If ther are laws that are In a grey are for use please check before you enter.

 

With many years of fishing years behind me I've never been on private property. Ontario has 250,000 lakes and 160,000 km of rivers I'm sure we can find one that is not private.

 

There is nothing worse to make a good day out into a disaster or even ending up witha charge.

[Jon]

Sort of related but the mention of Long Point reminded me of some Federal boating restrictions that I read when I took my Toronto Harbour licence years ago. Googled it and quickly found the Canadian Boating restrictions, which are part of the Canadian Shipping Act.

 

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._1407/20070531/P1TT3xt3.html

 

Lengthy, but interesting restrictions on boat motors, and in some cases, complete bans on boating, including an area of Long Point (That part of Long Point Bay of Lake Erie in front of lot 13 of the Twp. of Delhi (Charlotteville) in the Regional Municipality of Haldimand-Norfolk enclosed by the following positions: beginning at a point on shore at approximately 42°41′30.7″N, 80°19′37.2″W, to 42°41′30.2″N, 80°19′35.8″W, to 42°41′21.1″N, 80°19′39.4″W, to another point on shore at approximately 42°41′21.6″N, 80°19′40.8″W - WATERS ON WHICH POWER-DRIVEN VESSELS OR VESSELS DRIVEN BY ELECTRICAL PROPULSION ARE PROHIBITED EXCEPT WITH THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE MINISTER).

 

I'm assuming these are still in force. I would be interested to have someone confirm.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

 

[passthepitonspete]

Hmmm. Does that mean I can paddle my canoe through the Long Point Reserve, and catch all those largemouth bass that nobody else fishes?

[Rich]

Or just dont get caught.

 

It sounds bad, but.. if you show up, disturb nothing, leave nothing, and have a great time... Sounds pretty harmless?

[c10]

I know this is a late post, however, I am from the Burlington/Oakville area and have fished Bronte before. From what I understand the only places you can't fish are the various sanctuaries like Lowville and Bronte Creek P.P, and a few other spots up around the Freelton area during spawning the season and they all have No-Fishing signs posted.

 

Here and there, you will see "No Trespassing" and "No Fishing" signs. O'Really? So once again I ask, what is stopping anyone from jumping into the water under a bridge, and wading along the river bottom, whilst fishing one's way along?

For fishing in posted no-fishing zones - nothing is stopping you other than your morals and the odd MNR officer lol, but we need to be responsible about our resources. I know this probably isn't what you meant, but still worth noting I think lol.

Also from what I understand a landowner cannot kick you off Bronte in a canoe, unless you are fishing from shore or wadding from shore on their property posted with signs and without permission.
Again I know its late, but I have a couple friends who work at Bronte If you are still interested, I can see if they can dig up some documents on land and water rights on the river. Another place to go to check out this information would be the Centre for Inland waters by the lift bridge on theBurlington side off Birdgeport!

[fishindevil]

landowners also can own the creek bed,and both sides of the bank,they cannot own the water or the fish,you can be still charged for tresspassing if you are wading ...if they own the creek bottom,if they do you cannot put down an anchor or wade there is various meanings to the term "navigatable waterway"

[BillM]

landowners also can own the creek bed,and both sides of the bank,they cannot own the water or the fish,you can be still charged for tresspassing if you are wading ...if they own the creek bottom,if they do you cannot put down an anchor or wade there is various meanings to the term "navigatable waterway"

 

You can count on one hand the number of land owners that have streambed rights in this province...