Land Claim Proposal Is Public

[Muskieman]

4

[jedimaster]

Its no different that the NHL negotiation. Start with something ridiculas expecting you will get less. They have asked for what looks like almost half of algonquin park.

[Muskieman]

3....

[Rich Nelson]

Ill tell u what ticks me off more than this land claim issue. Its guys that do "countdowns" to threads being locked. It seems to me that certain mods see that at times, and instanly lock it, even though no rules were broken.

Things can be discussed civily, but Ive seen too many threads locked lately just because a mod didnt share the same opinion, or saw someone prodding to lock it. Lets stop acting like children, and let people voice thier opinions. If rules are broken, then the mods will lock it... If not, then hopefully they will let people speak thier minds...

[Muskieman]

Sorry dude , just being myself , I'm not a MOD . The finger is again pointing in the wrong direction. .

 

2 ....

[aplumma]

Ill tell u what ticks me off more than this land claim issue. Its guys that do "countdowns" to threads being locked. It seems to me that certain mods see that at times, and instanly lock it, even though no rules were broken.

Things can be discussed civily, but Ive seen too many threads locked lately just because a mod didnt share the same opinion, or saw someone prodding to lock it. Lets stop acting like children, and let people voice thier opinions. If rules are broken, then the mods will lock it... If not, then hopefully they will let people speak thier minds...

 

Actually the countdown of a level headed person should BE a warning. The reason most threads get locked is because of the report button which we encourage everyone to use. Pushing it does not mean we will lock it it means we will review it and make the decision. This thread is still going because it still has some FACTS to be presented the opinions expressed are allowed only if they 1. do not bash an individual person and 2. do not attack a group of people without a base of facts. Politics and religion are two subjects that bring out passion and stupidity and are the quickest to go wrong and locked.

 

Now back to the thread.

 

 

 

Art

[torco]

LMAO!!!! I don't know any facts but I think I'll just label them" Racists". You can have those two cents back if you like.

 

Perhaps racist was the wrong wording. I suppose more to my point is trying to discuss, debate, and inform in a more reasonable/respectful tone. The tone of many of the posts was just a little unsettling to me is all.

 

That is all I will say on that, and now I will listen to the discussion as it unfolds on the issue.

[Rod Caster]

If everyone actually reads and reviews the information posted, you will see that this is good public transparency and gives everyone a chance to voice their opinions to the people who will (should) actuallly use your opinions to make changes. This is the step that everyone says in hindsight they should have spoken up.

 

I'm neither for it or against it, I believe I could actually register as an Algonquin. I don't think half of what you see or read will actually make it to law

[jedimaster]

This is a lasting and broad sweeping topic that has the ability to affect every outdoorsman even if your favorite honey hole is not one of those currently splotched with red or pink. As everyone knows the way the law works is by precident. The Algonquins are trying to set a precident here. There motiviation as they say is that they owned the land and that Canada as a government stole it from them. They have marked a section that stretches from North Bay to the Quebec border and from North Bay along the algoniquin park border, then around Smoke Lake down the edge of th epan handle through haliburton encompassing bancroft down towards frontenac island and up to the quebec border.

 

They are contesting that this stretch of land was theres and should still be there's. They have come up with a first proposal of what they are willing to accept as land given back to them. These are outlined in more detail according to all of the little maps.

This includes both Crown Land and Private Land. Much of the crown land is currently within but not limited to Algonquin park.

 

Here is what I have objection to on this matter.

 

The land was not stolen from tha Algonquins, they were not tricked out of it. Battle lines were drawn and the land was take under act of war. Good or bad right or wrong. That is how the world works. That is how nations are created. If that did not happen neither you nor I would be here living in ontario today. Any non native would all be back in Eurorpe, or Asia, or Australia, or the carribean or Africa or wherever else you came from, or of course as I will point out living in the united states. I was born here, my parents were born here, but go back far enough and they were born elswhere.

 

Here is a little history on canada in case you were sleeping in grade 11 history. just the higlights of course

 

1497 on June 24th John Cabot landed on Cape Breton and claimed the land for King Henry the 7th

1508 a colony established in Labradors

1520 Portuguese mapped the Gulf of the St.Lawrence

1534 Jacque Cartier "re-discovered" the St.Lawrence and called the land kanata, later called it Canada

1605 The first permanent settlement in canada was established

1608 Champlain claimed Quebec was claimed by france with the aid of Huronia Indians

1615 Catholic missionaries were sent to Canada to convert the natives, held the first mass in Ontario

1629 The english overthrew France and took over quebece

1632 a treaty was signed and Quebec was returned to france, for the next 25 or 30 years Quebec/New France was under constant attack by the Iroquis and France declared war against the iroquois

1745 British took control of New France

1807 Slavery abolished in Canada

1812 We should all know about this US versus Canada, Toronto(formeerly known as york was burned down by the Yanks) on Christmas eve in 1814 a peace treaty was signed that ended the war.

1818 The 49th parallel was established as the border

 

Of course lots happened in between and here is thing to understand. If the British did NOT take over Quebec and seize control over Canada from the natives, this land would all be part of the United States. If the war of 1812 was not won than we would all very likely be part of the United States or not here at all.

 

So what does that have to do with the Algonquin Land claim? Well I just don't see where they have any right to the lands that were taken, maintained, governed, protected and ruled for the last 500 some odd years. The british colonizing what is now ontario and defending it from the French/new france/quebec, and later the Americans is land that is encompassed within the Algonquin land claim.

To say that the algonquins should have this or any of that land back is like saying France has rights to quebec and it should be given back as well.

 

It purely makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

What is the motivation? Purely its about pride and money. It is most certainly expected that much of the land will just be resold/leased out to cottagers.

 

Now what would you do if you actually though land was yours and was taken by some governemnt that you do not recognize. Well all around the world this is what starts a war. Will there be a war? Most certainly, the war will start out with talks and attempted legislation, this is where we are now. If the land is not given back you can almost be certain that blood will be spilled once again over the very same land where is was spilled many times before. Of course if the land is given back the Candian's will just accept it and move on. The question is should we?

 

What do I think should happen? I don't think the government should set a legal precident for giving back land that was already taken, claimed, defended and ruled. Right or wrong, good or bad, this land is canadian land. The Algonquin's live within canada and should have the same rights to that land as you or I. Extra rights are even granted that already cause great harm to the fisheries as we all know. To expand this is just insane in my humble opinion.

 

If you ask me? I say give nothing, and fight for it if needed. I would stand a fight for it. Would you? Many I guess will disagree and say we should just give some back, or pay them off or whatever. but I think its just wrong.

 

Thats my piece on this matter.

Edited December 18, 2012 by jedimaster

[Terry]

your flaw is

 

we never conquered the natives...we made treaties with them to stop hostilities

now they are holding us to promises that were made

 

[jedimaster]

What treaty was signed that stated they would be given land some 500 years later? The treaty's were allready agreed upon, signed and paid out. This is about the algonquins wanting to back in time and re make the treaty and emend what they are claiming should have been in that. Well it wasn't in it then or it would currently be so now.

Edited December 18, 2012 by jedimaster

[Moosebunk]

My understanding was that this land claim (and wherever it stands now with its considerations by both the Algonquins and Parliament) has been floating about since sometime in the early 80's. That's 30 years of going nowhere if be the case.

 

It's like somebody said though, you go into negotiations asking for the galaxy, you still might just get a planet or two. But I bet this claim is still light years away from really going anywhere.

 

 

You look at a Treaty Map, you will see there is a country which was signed, sealed and delivered through our history.

 

http://manitobawildlands.org/maps/HistTreatyMapCan_lg.jpg

 

If you can find a decent map which shows our Countries Reservations you will see there is a National community living with us.

 

http://www.pgic-iogc.gc.ca/DAM/DAM-INTER-IOGC/STAGING/images-images/ai_pubs_ar0809_2_1301074557452_eng.jpg

 

 

It is noted that many people live, economies grow and businesses can and do thrive on lands around Reservations and upon Treatied lands. Albeit, as old and tired as the agreed upon documents of which Natives and Settlers negotiated upon to found this country and define their futures, this history does exist and there is legal right which does give ground for Natives to safeguard their treatied lands and/or seek land claims by order to do so. There is very much and always has been concern amongst Natives to protect, and see to it that the Treatied terms agreed upon are being upheld. The Non-Native populace has grown so far beyond their own today, that everyday the world can't help but encroach more and more upon what Native's feel is either theirs, theirs to protect, or that to be shared equally. There is no equal measure at 99 to 1, even though some would oppose that math over the smaller scale issues of say, fishing, hunting, or tax dollars given to this minority. They are losing the land (and what it means to them) on many fronts, but they stand up for themselves, and even try to fight however they can. I'll admit to admiring that tenacity. Native plight is understandable with regards to this issue, and many others.

 

That said, land claims, Aboriginal funding, living conditions, hunting/fishing rights and every other consideration under the Indian Act of Canada is what the Government and Natives truly need to address. It is in truth the Indian Act itself; (and there does exist some support by Native peoples, but not Councils) which needs to be completely reviewed and modernly restored, or just abolished entirely by anything that can supercede it; such as Human Rights. The only way there is any hope in heck of any proposed change to become reality is, for those to get talking and to get working on it. Like this particular claim itself, again my bet is that will take another long while.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Moosebunk

[bushart]

One may really need to wait on this before it gets any more carried away

 

Ask Yourself how this will affect you directly and personally?

 

If you accessed that land for fishing or hunting---will it blocked?

 

Will the new landowners pay tax on these parcels?

 

Is this more about not affecting you directly and somebody's getting something and your not

 

If You do not have the definite answers on these----maybe waiting or asking authorities would be a more "TOLERANT" approach than drawing lines in the internet sand.

 

And Yes to what Terry said

[jedimaster]

Specific to what Terry said. The treaties were all signed and honoured long ago. This is not about land that was not paid paid out or a treaty that was not already signed, sealed and honoured. This is about a new claim to what the Algonquins are now saying should have been included in a claim a that was already signed ages ago. Actually they contested in court that there was no such claim. It was stated in court that there was no legal liability on the part of Ontario or Canada to forfeit this land through the court process. In an attempt for peacefull exchange the Ontario government said that they would be willing to negotiate some sort of settlement out of court settlement to make the Algonquins happy.

 

I would argue that this land was actually taken by force and claimed legally and it was forfeited over the course of the 500 years from when Canad was established and defended.

 

The reality is that a deal was struck to come up with some form of payout. The current proposal for land is in insane. What I think will end up happening is that anythin on crown will be given away and anything private will not. There will be native revolts as there were in caledonia and people will be hurt. Hopefully this does come to a peaceful end. However I can tell you that this will not likely be the last of it even when this has been agreed upon. There will be further disputes and claims resulting of whatever comes of this. That is just my opnion though.

[dickie]

Specific to what Terry said. The treaties were all signed and honoured long ago. This is not about land that was not paid paid out or a treaty that was not already signed, sealed and honoured. This is about a new claim to what the Algonquins are now saying should have been included in a claim a that was already signed ages ago. Actually they contested in court that there was no such claim. It was stated in court that there was no legal liability on the part of Ontario or Canada to forfeit this land through the court process. In an attempt for peacefull exchange the Ontario government said that they would be willing to negotiate some sort of settlement out of court settlement to make the Algonquins happy.

 

I would argue that this land was actually taken by force and claimed legally and it was forfeited over the course of the 500 years from when Canad was established and defended.

 

The reality is that a deal was struck to come up with some form of payout. The current proposal for land is in insane. What I think will end up happening is that anythin on crown will be given away and anything private will not. There will be native revolts as there were in caledonia and people will be hurt. Hopefully this does come to a peaceful end. However I can tell you that this will not likely be the last of it even when this has been agreed upon. There will be further disputes and claims resulting of whatever comes of this. That is just my opnion though.

One thing I agree with.IT WILL NEVER END and I will make another WE WILL ALWAYS GET THE SHORT END OF THE STICK

[Oggie]

Well greater legal minds than mine have studied this issue. If they feel there is an outstanding landclaim then I'm willing to go along with their decision. I'd hope by settling and with the passage of time some of the tensions around this issue would disippate. we're too far down the negotiating road to begin to question whether we should negotiate. By starting to negotiate we've validated the landclaim so let's getter done!

 

I would hope that the First Nations develop some self-sufficiency once they are given a modest landbase and a start-up investment. Hopefully they don't cut a cheque for everyone on the list and then lapse back into the same sad state they're in now (reserve living conditions).

 

Once treatied some of the issues related to Native priviledges/rights must get tightened up so that there is one set of rules on crown land. Hopefully the MNR can go back to enforcing those rules evenly on the EAstern side of Ontario. Court rulings on First Nations rights have made it impossible to enforce the Fish and Game laws in this area.

 

On a different note, the Algonquins did use both sides of the Ottawa. Do they not have a landclaim in Western Quebec?

 

Dan O.

[Terry]

Specific to what Terry said. The treaties were all signed and honoured long ago.

 

then we have nothing to worry about the courts will read the treaty and say all treaties have been fulfilled..

can you show me anything that states treaties were honored, paper work from courts. anything..this is the first that I have heard that all treaties have been honoured......

 

think I will google the word honoured.

[jedimaster]

The area being claimed as Algonquin land has never been officially recognized as having ever been part of the Algonquin territory at any time. As to where the lines actually orignially were I am not sure anyone including the algonquins themselves really know.

[jedimaster]

then we have nothing to worry about the courts will read the treaty and say all treaties have been fulfilled..

can you show me anything that states treaties were honored, paper work from courts. anything..this is the first that I have heard that all treaties have been honoured......

 

think I will google the word honoured.

 

 

Do you actually think it took the algonquins 400 years to realize that they were never paid for or the land was never taken from them? To think this is nothing other than give us more because we want it is a bit nieve. If they in fact were never paid for than the court case in the early 90's would have ruled in favour of the original algonquin claim. It was realized that through back door dealings that its better to just do this out of court for fear of a violent end.

[Rich Nelson]

I dont think we owe them anything. I think billions of dollars a year is good enough no? Canada is made up of many backgrounds and nationalities. They all have an equal opportunity to work hatd, be successful, and pay for what they want. Why is it still different for natives? To me, the solution is to pay them off, once and for all ( wich will cost billions, but it cost that every year anyway) and be done with it. They can become tax paying citizens, and follow the same rules as everyone else. The double standard is just not working. Or, they can do what they want on their reservations, but on public land, abide by the same rules as everyone else.

I am not classifying all natives in one category, because there are plenty that are hard working, honest people that arent mooching off the rest of society.

Keep working hard and paying your taxes boys. Millions on welfare and collecting handouts are depending on you!

[fishindevil]

I dont think we owe them anything. I think billions of dollars a year is good enough no? Canada is made up of many backgrounds and nationalities. They all have an equal opportunity to work hatd, be successful, and pay for what they want. Why is it still different for natives? To me, the solution is to pay them off, once and for all ( wich will cost billions, but it cost that every year anyway) and be done with it. They can become tax paying citizens, and follow the same rules as everyone else. The double standard is just not working. Or, they can do what they want on their reservations, but on public land, abide by the same rules as everyone else.

I am not classifying all natives in one category, because there are plenty that are hard working, honest people that arent mooching off the rest of society.

Keep working hard and paying your taxes boys. Millions on welfare and collecting handouts are depending on you!

very well said !!! conform to todays society period !!!

[Headhunter]

Can we keep this on topic guys... I know many of us are frustrated, but in order to keep threads like these open, we need to stay calm and rational.

I don't want to see yet another thread closed because we can't keep some things under control.

HH

[Roy]

Joe has that right.

[Cookslav]

we never conquered the natives...we made treaties with them to stop hostilities

now they are holding us to promises that were made

 

I guess that’s the fundamental issue I have with this claim.

I didn't sign or agree to any treaties...neither did my Dad, nor my Grandfather, nor did his father. Nor did any member of the Current Algonquin band.

In fact with regards to this particular claim there is no treaty....there never was.

Its a claim...a simple rudimentary claim and petition getting some current press.

 

 

If this claim is even given consideration We're opening Pandora’s Box with regards to claiming indigenous rights for land "historically" inhabited and land that was simply assumed into Canada when conceived.

There is ALOT more land in Canadian jurisdiction that could fall under that precedent....Virtually all of Canada actually.

 

Under these arguments any particular claim with no previous treaty now is open for debate....

[fishindevil]

Well lets just put it to a vote on a poll just for the heck of it and see what the results would be ??? Lol