Lake Ontario Atlantic Salmon

[Musky or Specks]

I know that this is a fishing forum and people's concerns here are that of the sport. But I'd like to bring up a point that doesn't get a lot of attention.

 

The Atlantic Salmon was a Lake Ontario native, a part of our natural heritage. I know that the original strain of fish is officially extinct, but the species still exists elsewhere. Now we as a species have done a lot to degrade the environment and this is an opportunity to correct it. Reintroduction of a lot of animals from all over the world are underway. Species that are almost identical can in fact differ enough genetically to be considered a distinct population (Cryptic species). Even though these cryptic species have gone extinct and genetic diversity has been lost, we still attempt to reintroduce them to their native habitats.

 

What my point is, if we give up trying to fix what we have broken what is the future going to entail for our children's children? Should we even try to save/restore our natural heritage or just let it be and end up having a bunch of non-indigenous species conquering our water because some fishermen are disgruntled over what kinds of fish they can catch?

I like the sentiment but there is also this thing called evolution and environmental factors are part of it and mankind, we suck as ecological partners. If the program was being successful then I'd have no problem funding it with tax dollars. But as its been mentioned the program is a colossal failure. Three fish??? That's not success by any definition. Were not even talking about creating a fishery which would at least have some intrinsic value. The thing that kills me is the headwaters of these streams are under intense urban pressure and I don't see the cold water resource surviving another 50 years particularly the Credit and the Oakridge moraine. In my lifetime I've watched population after population of wild native trout wiped out in the name of revenue and I expect nothing less from our governing bodies in the future.

[craigdritchie]

Well the new strains have only been stocked in very recent years; within the last five years.

Thing is John, five years is in itself too long without some signs of success. It doesn't take five years to produce significant results with any others species of salmonid - even lake trout, which grow far more slowly than Atlantic salmon.

 

Said it before and I will repeat it here - stock 500,000 coho or rainbows, and you'll see amazing results in 18 months - not five years. Why are we still waiting? Why do I feel like Linus waiting for the Great Pumpkin to show up?

 

The numbers stocked are well into the millions ..... and nothing!

 

On the basis of the sheer numbers stocked, we should all be catching dozens of small Atlantics each year, and that just isn't happening. I know a charter operator in Port Credit who has boated six of them in his entire life. Six! How does he make a living on that?

 

Believe me - I would love to see Atlantic salmon succeed. But it has been 25 years of excuses. We have stocked millions of fish. And, they're sending out press releases celebrating the fact they saw three fish in the Credit River. If that doesn't constitute complete and total failure, then what does?

Edited November 3, 2011 by Craig_Ritchie

[landry]

Craig is dead right!!!

Good idea initially but it is time to throw in the towel and spend the $ on fish that will succeed.

Supporting/revitalizing wild fisheries is a great idea if the habitat can sustain or support it.

It can't - so pack it in!

The focus on wild/indigenous stocking is like a religious cult in the MNR nowadays.

Not saying we should have cookie cutter steelhead in the thousands in our rivers like the U.S. Erie tribs BUT at least open your eyes to reality = HABITAT DEGRADATION.

 

 

 

[BillM]

I did! No response... There are tons of very small ones up in the headwaters, but it certainly doesn't seem to be translating into any real #'s. That said, I have seen more this year than ever before, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

No wonder the resident browns I catch keep getting bigger and bigger Great feed!

 

I'd love to see just 1 or 2 stocking seasons of cohos or steelhead. People would crap their pants at the return.

Edited November 3, 2011 by BillM

[Aaron Shirley]

Craig, you are making a statement that is misleading. There are more and more Atlantics caught recently. A friend of mine (Justin Elia from this board) caught a bunch of Atlantics from the Credit this year, let alone the other anglers that had success. Justin caught and released six Atlantics one morning alone this year himself! That was unheard of even in the past couple years. Rome was not built in a day, and other species took a long time to naturalize from scratch in Lake Ontario that are much less sensitive than Atlantics. Stream restoration will be a big part of any Atlantic naturalization success. That is currently being worked on now thanks to the OMNR, OFAH, Trout Unlimited, CRAA, HRCA etc.

 

To be honest, I used to be opposed to the Atlantic program before I saw the whole picture. All that I saw before was a lot of $$ going into a program that didn't work. Like many, I thought it was ridiculous to spend so much time and money on something that wasn't working and would displace non-indiginous thriving salmonid species that we all love.

 

After opening my mind and looking at the whole picture, I see things much differently now. Kings, browns and bows are not being displaced, the fishery is still healthy despite heavy Atlantic efforts.

 

Stream rehab is being done in much larger scales to benefit our natural resources, protect what we have and help our Lake Ontario fishery as a whole. An extinct Atlantic salmon has special powers to protect and enhance the streams, rivers and spawning grounds for all Lake Ontario fish, including bass. Aquatic insects, the food chain and wildlife will also benefit from the re-introduction of an extinct Atlantic salmon. Builders may also be forced to take special care while building up around our tributaries. No other fish species have the ability to help in this magnitude, and mostly from funding that would not be there otherwise.

 

And now a lot more people are catching Atlantic salmon. Heck, I even saw my first Atlabntic this year hahaha. It took many years for steelhead, browns and Chinook to naturalize into Lake Ontario, it will take Atlantics a while as well, all the while benefiting Lake Ontario, its tributaries and other fish, aquatic life and wildlife as a whole.

 

People are opposed to the Atlantic program that have not opened their mind, and do not see the full picture. Fear mongering with ignorance is the culprit.

 

As long as our beloved Chinook, browns and steelhead continue to thrive in Lake Ontario, what harm can the Atlantic program do? It's a good thing for Lake Ontario, the tribs and anglers, even if some don't see it yet.

 

I am convinced the Atlantic program is a good thing after opening my eyes.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Aaron Shirley

[craigdritchie]

Thanks for your thoughts Aaron, and I appreciate your views. But accusing me of misleading anyone is something I take very seriously, so please allow me to respond. I'll apologize right now for the long post.

 

First off, what exactly have I mislead people about?

 

I wrote that Ontario has been stocking Atlantic salmon for 25 years, and to date have poured several million of them into Lake Ontario. Click on this link and you can see for yourself that the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission fish stocking database shows Ontario stocking Atlantic salmon every single year from 1986 to 2004. You can add it up for yourself and see that over that 18 year span, the Ontario government poured a grand total of 2,546,391 Atlantic salmon in Ontario streams. Divide that total by 18 years and you have an average of 141,466 Atlantic salmon stocked each and every year, for 18 solid years. That’s a lot of fish! Sadly, the database has no record for 2005, but there is no reason to believe the number of fish stocked that year would have been any different.

 

When the program entered its “current” phase in 2006, annual plants increased to 500,000 fish per year. If you read this MNR news announcement from 2008, it proudly notes that between 2006 and 2008 MNR stocked more than one million Atlantic salmon in Ontario streams. That’s 500,000 fish per year, and stocking levels have remained consistent at 500,000 per year ever since. This gives us an additional 2.5 million Atlantics stocked since 2006. Add the 2.5 million stocked between 1986 and 2004, and we have a grand total in excess of 5 million Atlantic salmon stocked into Lake Ontario over the past 25 years. So I clearly didn’t mislead anyone on the numbers of fish stocked, or the amount of time this program has been dragging on.

 

I also wrote that the results of this stocking program have been disappointing, to say the least.

 

Is that how I misled people? From the CRAA's own website: "CRAA monitored for returns, although they were very rare throughout the 1993 to 2007 era." Over a period of 14 years, CRAA volunteers could count the total number of Atlantics they saw on one hand.

 

Also from CRAA's website: "Returns of adult salmon to the Credit River have been growing, with 49 in 2008, 75 in 2009 and possibly over 200 in 2010." Add in a handful of others that wandered up other creeks or were caught by anglers, and you might come up with another 100 or 150 fish in total. A generous estimate might peg the total number at about 500 salmon, in total, over a three-year span. That’s a generous average of 167 fish per year.

 

Stock 500,000 fish per year, and have maybe 167 come back to be caught by anglers or show up at your fishway. I wrote that I felt this was a lousy return on investment, and I don’t feel I misled anyone there either.

 

Now let’s look at what you had to say.

 

You wrote that Justin Elia caught a bunch of Atlantics in the Credit this year. By catching six fish in one morning, Justin has had more success than a professional charter boat operator I know who, for the past several years, has been on the lake four or five days a week for most of the summer. Quite an accomplishment, to be sure, but it would certainly be misleading to suggest this happens on any kind of regular basis.

 

By the way, was Justin fishing in the fish sanctuary with the special permit that a number of the CRAA members have? If so, then I’m a lot less impressed. Because let’s face it, the average guy just doesn’t have that opportunity.

 

I also find your comment “It took many years for steelhead, browns and chinook to naturalize into Lake Ontario…” to be a bit misleading, for it is simply incorrect. Check MNR’s stocking records and you’ll see that coho were stocked into the Credit River in 1968. Read any fishing magazine from that period and you’ll also see that the first significant coho runs into the Credit occurred in the fall of 1969. That isn’t a very long time at all, certainly not "many years."

 

MNR’s records further show that chinook were introduced to Bronte Creek in 1974. By 1978 Darryl Choronzy was writing in Ontario Out Of Doors magazine about the fantastic chinook fishing off Bronte. That isn’t “many years” either. By the way Aaron, we’re not talking about establishing wild populations - just surviving long enough to contribute to a fishery or at the very least, make it back to a fishway.

 

And how many years have we been waiting for the Atlantics? Oh yes, since 1986. Hmmm.

 

There are a lot of misleading statements about the Atlantic salmon program, and coming from all sides. Some may come from people who are critical of the program, to be sure. Others might come from biologists who are simply trying to protect their jobs. And others still could come from angling groups that benefit by using the salmon program as a way to generate revenue. And sure, there are probably one or two guys who only support it because it lets them go fish in the sanctuary every now and then.

 

But the numbers don't lie. More than five million fish stocked. A return rate measured in the thousandths of a percent. No room in the hatchery for coho, rainbows and browns that will contribute to the fishery, because all the space is occupied by Atlantic salmon that for all intents and purposes only exist on paper.

 

My eyes have been open a long time, which is all the more reason I remain convinced this program is a complete and total sham. I have a lot of respect for your opinion Aaron, but this is one topic upon which we will have to agree to disagree.

 

 

 

Edit - fixed a typo. It's 2:00 in the morning and I'm tired!

Edited November 3, 2011 by Craig_Ritchie

[Aaron Shirley]

this August three Atlantic salmon were observed in the Credit River. Three. From a stocking of more than 500,000 fish each year.

 

This is what I meant by misleading. My apologies for offending you, that was not my intention. There are a lot more Atlantics entering the Credit than three. There are actual signs that an Atlantic fishery may be possible with growing numbers annually. Keep in mind that Atlantic salmon are much more sensitive to the environment and habitat degradation than kings, browns and steelies, and it will take more effort and a longer period of time to have a naturalized population of Atlantic salmon. Of course nobody can predict the future, but things are finally looking up at least.

 

Also, keep in mind that charter guys are not targeting Atlantic salmon. They are a unique fish that people will have to figure out. How long did it take for people to figure out the blue zone for bows and hos?

 

As far as I know Justin was not fishing in a sanctuary, just average Joe fishing.

 

I got your PM, thanks. I'd love to chat with you more about this.

 

All the best,

 

Aaron

[Gregoire]

This is what I meant by misleading. My apologies for offending you, that was not my intention. There are a lot more Atlantics entering the Credit than three. There are actual signs that an Atlantic fishery may be possible with growing numbers annually. Keep in mind that Atlantic salmon are much more sensitive to the environment and habitat degradation than kings, browns and steelies, and it will take more effort and a longer period of time to have a naturalized population of Atlantic salmon. Of course nobody can predict the future, but things are finally looking up at least.

 

Also, keep in mind that charter guys are not targeting Atlantic salmon. They are a unique fish that people will have to figure out. How long did it take for people to figure out the blue zone for bows and hos?

 

As far as I know Justin was not fishing in a sanctuary, just average Joe fishing.

 

I got your PM, thanks. I'd love to chat with you more about this.

 

All the best,

 

Aaron

 

I believe that you fish a lot of the slamon tournaments every year. What do you think would happen to the King population is the stocking programs for them where stopped in favour of stocking Atlantics, which I believe is a possibility right now. Others may be able to provide more information on this, but I believe one of the stocking programs for Kings is being threatened with closure right now.

[Musky or Specks]

The Atlantic salmon has no special designation as a species and has no power to protect the environment. If you are being told this you are being mislead. Builders will pay lip service only to any habitat and the OMB will overrule any attempt to stop building in sensitive habitats. Remember that cold water habitat is formed by recharge areas. Recharge areas are large tracts of land which slowly absorb rainwater back into the aquifer. You may protect the riparian zone but you won't save the recharge areas.

 

That's not fear mongering or misleading people that's the cold hard truth. I've participated in a program that had an entire large city council on board. An environmental watershed wide assessment in place before any development could proceed to protect the last trout stream in the city of Waterloo. That's last, no more, extinct. OMB used the environmental watershed assessment to wipe its collective ass with as they paved over the entire area with houses and driveways. Needless to say NO MORE COLDWATER and no more trout. The Upper Credit is headed the same way and the Atlantic Salmon will not save it.

[Garnet]

I was part of the groups that started the Atlantic program (Bowmnaville Creek Anglers, Durham Region Anglers). We went in person to MNR Minister Newmans office looking for stocking. His statement was Atlantic's were a Heritage Species and part of his mandate.

 

We also got some brown trout stocking in Bowmanville Creek, Oshawa Creek and a couple others.

 

This lead to a trip for MNR and Club members to New Brunswick, New Hampshire. I didn't get to go but 1 guy was diligent at picking up every piece of paper, every study. I diffidently was the only one to read every scrap of paper.

 

Over and over in this materiel it states how easy Atlantic's are caught with flashy, spinning metal. And we are dumping them into Lake O.

 

I heard reports this year of Atlantics being caught off Oshawa pier. These were most likely Pink Salmon. And any reports of Atlantic catches not professionally verified are most likely Pink's.

 

A few years later we took the MNR on! Yes it was a fight to have chinnooks stock east of the Rouge River. Close door strategy meetings throwing out MNR staff. Press releases. Newspaper articles, late night phone calls from the most senior MNR staff. We had professional Dale Carnegie speakers presenting our information. And eventually we had this policy dropped.

 

Good memories and lot's more Bowmanville Fishway, helping Metro East Steelheaders and Credit River Steelheaders get going, starting live release steelhead tourneys ending catch and kill derby's.

[BillM]

Out in the lake, people confuse browns with atlantics more then any other species. How many times have we had a threads here asking us to identify fish, lol.

[John Bacon]

Thing is John, five years is in itself too long without some signs of success. It doesn't take five years to produce significant results with any others species of salmonid - even lake trout, which grow far more slowly than Atlantic salmon.

 

No, five years is not enough because the first hatchlings will be used to create a brood stock, which is then used to produce large quantities of fish for stocking. Eggs can be harvested from three year old fish but they are small and don't have very good survival rates. It takes at least a four year old female to produce quality eggs for hatching. Then it would take another three or four years before the offspring of the those fish return to rivers. So you would be looking at a minimum of seven years before you begin to see significant results from a new strain. The 10 year point would be a good time to access the success of a new strain.

 

Unfortunately the MNR continues to stock the lahav's which we already know are not successful. The lehav numbers should not be included in the totals when accessing the returns versus numbers stocked.

 

The most promising strain is the Restigouche which the MNR hasn't even worked with at all.

Edited November 3, 2011 by JohnBacon

[BillM]

No, five years is not enough because the first hatchlings will be used to create a brood stock, which is then used to produce large quantities of fish for stocking. Eggs can be harvested from three year old fish but they are small and don't have very good survival rates. It takes at least a four year old female to produce quality eggs for hatching. Then it would take another three or four years before the offspring of the those fish return to rivers. So you would be looking at a minimum of seven years before you see significant results from a new strain.

 

Why not use broad stock from out east?

[aniceguy]

... And now that Streetsville is open during the earlier months, a self-sustaining population is more and more likely..

 

 

Look outside the box on this fish, the returns are dismal no doubt there, the money is from the private sector, the MNR still has to spend I ll wager double what comes from the private sector in inkind work and actual staff and salary so our money is being spent. Yes the money could have gone to lots of other fish, maybe or it could have gone to a mole in Quebec, a frog in BC or a salamander in Newfoundland from the wine folks and MNR money could have been spent on other things, it didn’t and it went right here locally in our backyards and thats a point no one has bothered to make that when a corporate entity looks to spend marketing money on a cause it can go anywhere again it came here be very thankful of it as.

I assure you other corporates look at this sort of push back on salar and decide why invest in Ontario and its fisheries, outside the box and big picture stuff wouldnt we want say Mercedes Benz to donate 2 million to elk restoration etc...push back kils this sort of thing, trust me I have heard it right to my face

 

Sorry musky and Specks while most of your post was dead on some is polar opposites, outside of the box this fish is leading to less water taking permits in some watersheds,( I believe the Bronte watershed will have a 20% plus decrease in its new FMP)due to primarily to redside dace but the salar had an impact as its the next stream for re introduction, a developer was stopped from building in streetsville due to his land in a recharge area, and it was ruled he needed to be top of bank, from my understanding it didnt even go to OMB due to a viewed potential negative outcome, even though laws are not in place the optics still lead some to walk away and this benefits our watersheds

 

A more stringent review of Environmental assessments, if you look at the guidelines to recharge areas it has changed in the last few years, granted its only wording and the fines associated to a builder as squat change that and now its a huge step in the right dirrection. Stronger enforcement of development, on the Credit an incident was noted within two days it was dealt with via MOE and DFO/MNR the developer was advised and he from my understanding changed his discharge methods, small step but fish habitat has come a lot higher on the table due to redside dace and the salar within the credit watershed and while its not all hope and good news it moves in the right direction, its not a finite process but one with a lot of baby steps

 

 

A new fish ladder in Norval was built both from private funds and MNR funding, its a shame politics isnt allowing jumping and non jumping species access above Norval, I could cite about 50 other outside of the box programs or enhancements that came from the awareness this fish brought. I am meeting with a large corporate entity today to discuss their proposal for a Quarry in the lower watershed, 20 yrs. ago wouldn’t even be a blip in terms of the permits, yet now requires the permit requester to meet with Non-Governmental agencies to work through the issues, while it might only be optics and the OMB could very well side with a proponant its all a step in the right direction, that corporate knows that the optics of being a good corporate citizen is valuable to its branding ( I think Craig knows this one).

 

The fish has provided less than dismal angling opportunities and if any of us look at it from that one single perspective it was an utter complete waste in every regard as it has not provided a measurable angling opportunity, but once you look outside the box and can grasp the peripheral benefits, and can "ride the coat tails" to improve opportunities for other fish and wild life species you see that this program has a very measurable effect on the fishery you and I love.

As to Streetsville, yes it can now be on full flow through and all the fish can access Norval and once past that to heaven, sadly due to groups such as Trout Unlimited, Isaac Walton fly fishing, rainbows Chinooks Coho’s etc., are not allowed above the Norval dam, while the Atlantic program got it built (although CRAA kicked in 60k from a US funding source) it sits right now as a rotting structure due to social matters, personally if I was an angler I would be calling the MNR daily to ask why rainbows coho's chinooks and every other single fish isnt allowed above Norval to spawn and do the best thing for the river create naturally self sustaining fish species because right there that single call, email or letter has more impact then any internet thread

Edited November 3, 2011 by aniceguy

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

every time a thread like this comes it's amazing the amount of experts that come out when they read something somewhere. and for some reason i always feel like i'm being lectured in my own area of specialization.

 

i won't engage in this never ending debate but i will say that i'm educated in and have 8 years in fisheries management and i support the reintroduction of the atlantic salmon. sound fisheries management does not base it's decisions on recreational angling alone and this is one of those cases.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Dr. Salvelinus

[dave524]

 

I wrote that Ontario has been stocking Atlantic salmon for 25 years, and to date have poured several million of them into Lake Ontario. Click on this link and you can see for yourself that the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission fish stocking database shows Ontario stocking Atlantic salmon every single year from 1986 to 2004. You can add it up for yourself and see that over that 18 year span, the Ontario government poured a grand total of 2,546,391 Atlantic salmon in Ontario streams. Divide that total by 18 years and you have an average of 141,466 Atlantic salmon stocked each and every year, for 18 solid years. That’s a lot of fish! Sadly, the database has no record for 2005, but there is no reason to believe the number of fish stocked that year would have been any different.

 

When the program entered its “current” phase in 2006, annual plants increased to 500,000 fish per year. If you read this MNR news announcement from 2008, it proudly notes that between 2006 and 2008 MNR stocked more than one million Atlantic salmon in Ontario streams. That’s 500,000 fish per year, and stocking levels have remained consistent at 500,000 per year ever since. This gives us an additional 2.5 million Atlantics stocked since 2006. Add the 2.5 million stocked between 1986 and 2004, and we have a grand total in excess of 5 million Atlantic salmon stocked into Lake Ontario over the past 25 years. So I clearly didn’t mislead anyone on the numbers of fish stocked, or the amount of time this program has been dragging on.

 

I also wrote that the results of this stocking program have been disappointing, to say the least.

 

 

Also this is not the first time that there has been a majour effort to reintroduce the Atlantics to Lake Ontario, the start of the hatchery programs in Ontario were mostly to reintroduce Atlantics , check the stocking figures on page 155 of this document.

 

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/stdprodconsume/groups/lr/@mnr/@letsfish/documents/document/mnr_e001346.pdf

 

edit: page 164 , seems the adobe page numbers don't match the document page numbers

Edited November 3, 2011 by dave524

[bucktail]

I have to agree that the Atlantic stocking is a huge dissapointment.

The one thing we can't do is compare the introductiion of coho's and chinooks to Lake Ontario

At that time Lake O had probably 20x as much alewives and smelt that it does now. The pacific salmon were itroduced into a complete ecologiical void with no predators and a almost endless supply of food.

The Atlantics are being introduced into a Lake that has had its biatfish numbers crash and also they have millions of other salmon and trout to compete against.

 

Just something to consider.

 

darren

[justin elia]

Great discussion everyone. Its always a hot topic on most chat boards. Sounds like we have some very passionate anglers in Ontario wanting to make a change for the better no matter how we all view things.

 

As per Craigs comment: Not that I have to justify anything to anyone, but I noticed one comment asking if I was fishing in a sanctuary while catching Atlantics this fall. Just because CRAA, OFAH and MNR had sanctuary permits to capture and transfer Atlantic Salmon, Rainbow and Brown Trout a few years back does mean we have a free run of the sanctuary every year. FYI Craig, I would have much rather landed and released fish at my feet opposed to humping sometimes up to 500 yards with 60lbs bags of water and fish, truck them 20 miles up stream just so they have an opportunity to spawn. Its the everyday angler on the Credit and Lake Ontario that benefits from our work. I choose to give back to a resource I use quite a bit. You may want to reconsider your thoughts on the whole sanc process and what CRAA has done.

 

As for the Atlantics this year, the Credit has seen very high levels of returns for Atlantic Salmon. Aaron is correct in mentioning that one morning in early September after a rain I had landed 6 Atlantics between THE 403 AND THE LAKE. There have been countless reports of Atlantics in the Credit since the Summer, in fact anglers are still catching them to date in the lower stretches.

 

To those that are opposed to the Atlantic Program, all I can say it is working! The north shore of Lake Ontario and its watersheds will benefit substantially from this program. Every river will eventually benefit from this and your steelhead numbers will increase, brown trout numbers will increase, habitat will improve etc etc. I have seen it first hand and before anyone makes a snap judgement simply based on what a few 'nay' sayers think, I encourage them to spend a little more time on the Credit River to see what's really happening.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2011 by justin elia

[J-M]

Hi Justin, you mention the Credit has seen a high level of atlantic salmon returns. Just curious if you have any hard numbers to back this up, I'm a numbers person and high levels can mean quite a few different things.

 

If the MNR can produce accurate numbers on atlantic returns which amount to something significant, you won't have a problem convincing us that its working.

[justin elia]

J-M, you're right and I should address what I meant.

 

The only hard evidence I have are my own reports and pictures from various anglers on the river. John gets emailed frequently with angler catch reports for Atlantic Salmon in the river. I am not saying that we have 1000 Atlantic Salmon running the Credit, but they have become quite common, my guess would be around 500 this year.

 

How they are managed by the MNR and OFAH is out of our control and sometimes the best resource of information is by anglers fishing the river itself and not necessarily based on one capturing area in Streestville. Those that know the river well, know that fish do get over Streetsville. There is a huge gap between Streetsville and Norval and south of the Dam in Streetsville to the Lake. We have had numerous reports of spawning Atlantic Salmon in the lower river and based on the catch numbers, I have no idea where these fish are. Between the guys in our club, we have probably put 100 Atlantic Salmon to the bank this fall. Unfortunately, a lot of Atlantic Salmon do not get accounted for in the MNR's numbers.

 

I do not benefit from the program personally, I just agree with it and have seen over the past 4 years the increase in reported catches outside from what MNR numbers show. Those who choose not to believe me, its really no sweat off my back.

 

The Credit RIver is thriving, the watershed is changing for the better, more anglers are starting to fish the river and benefitting from the work being done by various groups. Catch rates are up for all species. Thats what matters to me most.

 

 

[Jon]

I was hoping to spend some time writing a response to two of Craig's comments in particular, but that likely wouldn't be for a few days and I would like to respond while the topic is popular so here goes. I am hoping that these numbers provide a bit more context on the discussion. And before I begin, I do know Craig, and although we haven't spoken in a while, I appreciate his background and concern.

 

First of all, the three adults fish were captured, not observed. Put into perspective, that was from only sampling about 700 metres of stream on two days in August. Based on the numbers of fish reported by MNR staff, anglers, CRAA members and others, I am pretty confident in saying we caught only a small number of the adult fish returning to the Credit this year. And by a similar argument, since we didn't catch a single Chinook Salmon at any sites where Chinooks should be found in the Credit in 2011 and only three juveniles in 2010, the Chinook program must not be working either.

 

Secondly, stocking numbers for Chinooks are also available from the same database that Craig mentioned. I would like to break down the numbers in more detail (i.e. American vs. Canadian stocking numbers and stocking numbers by year) but haven't had the time. Very simply then, according to the GLFC database, since 1969 and excluding the years for which there is no data, for whatever reason, there have been just under 76 million Chinooks stocked in Lake Ontario. Yes, 76 million!!! And that doesn't include the number reproducing on their own. Compare that to the over 5 million Atlantics stocked in the lake since 1986 (for some reason the database doesn't include the recent ramped-up stocking numbers in Ontario that equates to over 2 million additional fish), and I am not surprised we see Chinooks returning in large numbers while the Atlantic returns are low so far.

 

I do have additional comments on the benefits of the restoration associated with the Atlantic Salmon program, the economics of raising 76 million fish and a bunch of the other points but they will have to wait for another day - I have to get back to work.

 

 

Jon

[john from craa]

Great passion. It would be awesome to see that much energy put into rehabilitation, access, sustainable harvest and public education.

 

I have a biology degree, did my thesis on the Credit's cold water fishery and have volunteered an estimated 20,000 hours to making many of the north shore tribs a better place for fish and anglers so I would argue I am up to speed on the program more than most. I am also the only person to serve on both the original Atlantic salmon committee and two of the present day committees. And I am 100% supportive of the reintroduction of Atlantic salmon. I love steelies, chinooks, coho, browns, brookies and lakers, but Atlantic's are a great addition to our fishery. As a game fish, for expanding angling opportunities and the fact they are a native specie. The program is not perfect and has had many hurdles, some placed by MNR themselves. The lack of huge returns to keep anglers happy is no doubt the biggest hurdle. However the program has good goals and the new program (2006 to present) has better design, planning and real effort behind it for the first time.

 

I would argue there is some common mis-information or half truths posted in this thread that I hear often. I hope you enjoy my take on the matter. I appologize up front for being long winded.

 

First, the 14" Atlantic mentioned above was most likely a 3 year old smolt, not a fish from the lake. However, it is possible for a fry to hit the lake and return at that size with one summer in the lake. We see this with steelhead, where some stay for 3 years in the river and some leave after 1 year and after a year in the lake are 12-14". But my bet is 3 years in the stream by a long shot.

 

The most common age we have seen thus far for returning Atlantic salmon locally is 2 stream years and 1 lake year, so age 3 and averaging 22-25" in length and 4 to 5.8 pounds.

 

I have to say if we are going to discuss stocking and numbers it is neccisary to inform all readers what each age means and how they compare. To say the MNR stocked 500,000 Atlantic fry and 500,000 chinook fingerlings and call that equal is like comparing apples and oranges. One must also look at the size (weight) and strain of the fish for the discussion. A 1 gram Atlantic fry is not the same as a 30 gram steelhead smolt. Atlantic salmon, coho and steelhead seem to follow a similar juvenile life patterns (stream life). 18-24 months in the stream, then smolt to the lake. Chinook only spend 1-2 months in the stream. They have adapted to produce large eggs and large fry that leave the river fast. The river has the most predators and the greatest threat of all, high temps in summer and freezing in winter. By avoiding these two extremes chinook have adapted well to maximize the most stable habitat, the lake (or ocean originally). The hatchery process greatly accelerates this process for chinook too, by hatching eggs in December and extending feeding prior to lake life to as much as 6 months. Chinook fry in the wild are 1gram in May, whereas hatchery chinook ate 5-7 grams in early may and average 4-5 grams at stocking in mate April. A 7 gram chinook can eat a 1 gram chinook.

 

The majority of Atlantic stocking has been 1 gram Atlantic fry, and even the larger fish have to spend 2-18 months in the river that the chinook do not.

 

Look at numbers: These are for the Credit specifically: 2006 to 2009 (grilse return years of 2008-2011).

 

Year, Fry, Fingerling, Yearling, First adult year, Return estimate

2006, 124000, 50500, 28200, (grilse age 2008), Estimate 49 (only grilse (3-6 pound fish)

2007, 148000, 500, 0, (grilse age 2009), Estimate 75 (mostly grilse, some 2 lake year fish to 8-9 pounds)

2008, 94800, 31600, 31900, (grilse age 2010), Estimate 200 (grilse, more 7-9 lb fish and a few 10-13 pound fish)

2009, 233000, 150216, 43140, (grilse age 2011), Ongoing this fall. Best guess will be 400-500. (Up to 17 lbs seen)

 

Totals 590100 232816 103240

 

926156 total over 4 years.

 

Expressed as a yearling equivelent, (I have used 1:15 for fry and 1:5 for fingerlings), this gives us a total of 188,400 over 4 years. These yearling fish (or equivelents) will still spend 2-18 months in the stream after this point. But this gives us a better comparsion to stocking of other species. 100% of these fish are LaHave River strain, from 4th-5th generation Ontario MNR hatchery brood stock. New strains only begin stocking 2011-2012 and will show any returns in 2013-2014 or later.

 

The program is not producing adults like the chinook (40+ years adaption), coho (40+ years adaption) or steelhead (110 years adaption). However, the returns have increased with more stocking and so have the returns of adult Atlantic salmon. This clearly shows success and an upward trend of returns.

 

Lets talk about fish sightings/catches. 2008 about 10 were reported to me from anglers, plus ones we collected from the fishway or sanctuary by fishing, electroshocking and siene netting. In 2009 about 15 were reported from anglers. In 2008 I personally saw 4 Atlantics the entire fall in the fishway channel. In 2009 I saw about 8 the entre fall. In 2010 I had over 50 angler reports (verified from pictures from sources I don't trust on ID). In one morning I counted over 30 pass through the ladder and saw them 1 out of 2-3 checks on the fishway channel. This fall today is the first day I have not seen an Atlantic in the fishway channel since early September. Some days I saw 10-15, other days 1-5, but every time I looked, they were there. Yes, there were 50-200 chinooks and some bows and the odd brown and coho. But the point is they are far, far more common in 2011 than even last year or 2009. The largest lifed from the ladder was 90 cm and 14.4 lbs, but many others in this size range were seen. I also know at least 10 anglers that hooked close to or over 20 each on the Credit this fall (Justin and myself included). And to clarify, all in the regular open sections since we are not collecting from the sanctuary at all.

 

The 3 grilse Craig noted were not found at Streetsville. They were found by CVC in early August 77 km from Lake Ontario. One of them above 5 dams! The other two above 3 dams. CVC shocked roughly 700m of stream for these (thanks Jon), yet we have roughly 30 km of suitable summer habitat. There may not have been thousands, but one hundred in the upper river by early August is very reasonable. I also had two in the lake out of 5 trips. Sure I had 20 chinooks, a couple coho and a few dozen bows too. But that is the highest lake average I have had.

 

The key will be seeing these fish start to spawn and adapt. As stated before, we are dealing with 20 years of hatchery inbreeding. Yet the returning fish are sweet, chrome and strong. Using the adults to build higher return rates and develop a Lake Ontario strain is what will move towards better return rates and a fishery that might make most anglers happy. Allowing fish to access prime spawning grounds will also achieve this.

 

This is where NY is ahead of Ontario. The have better resoruces and less red tape. We have a lot of good people in MNR, but they are tied up in red tape. The start of this article speaks to 3 years of wild Atlantic salmon in the Salmon River. NY until last year was paying lip service to the program, stocking 30-50,000 low quality Atlantic yearlings into the Salmon River. Thier strain is mainly Grand Lake I beleive. The fish suprised all and started reproducing. Now the USGS has re-tooled a small hatchery to collect and hold returning adult Atlantic salmon to the SR hatchery and use those eggs to raise and stock additional yearlings. So for the first time since 1886 adult Atlantic salmon that survived Lake Ontario will be used to produce more hatchery fish rather than fish from another lake or ocean. I would be willing to bet NY has higher returns by 2020 because of this. And this is the one major thing I would like Ontario to change. But to do this takes time, effort and a quarentine area at the MNR hatchery.

 

To address other issues: Atlantic salmon are not replacing chinooks. They are in addition too. Secondly, MNR and NY cannot stock 500,000 more chinook, coho or steelhead into the lake over fears of ruining the predator-prey balance. They can stock that many Atlantic's because they know there is a lower survival rate and it is not enough to mess with the balance. And now they are dealing with proof the chinooks and coho are producing far more wild fish than most managers ever though possible.

 

In the end, as Louis noted, even if the fish never return, the funding brought forth by outside sources (not government) and matched funding has added far more funding the rehab and help our local rivers than ever before. Even if someone hates Atlantic salmon they should be thankful the program is benefiting all the other species we have and enjoy.

 

As Aaron said, Rome was not built in a day.

 

NY lake fishing creel data also shows the highest lake catch and harvest of Atlantic salmon in the past two years. Not a coincidence. The present MNR program that was ramped up in 2006 has stocked about 3 million Atlantics in 6 years. But over 50% have been in the past 2 years and are still in the streams as juveniles. The new strains are just reaching maturity in the hatchery to produce eggs. So this fall will be the first year MNR can produce a substancial amount of eggs from the two new strains for stocking fry in 2012 and yearlings in 2013 to contribute to the fishery in 2014-2017. Will they be better than LaHave...who knows. But LaHave fish are producing growing returns.

 

MNR has not been able to get other strains yet. This is due to lack of places with surplus eggs, disease concerns/regulations and hatchery quarantine space. It would be great to get our hands on Restigouche or Cascapedia salmon eggs. But that will not happen unless we see continued and growing success and ANGLER SUPPORT!

 

It would be great to see anglers publically thank sponsors and staff for doing their best and trying. Some do. But far too many choose to trash the programs and this only hurts us all. Why would any company donate or invest in a hornets nest like this. CRAA has been refused grants several times in the past few years over this issue. Why donate to a cause to get pissed on?

 

Far more productive to find the positive and build on it. I for one would like my children to inherit more than I did, not less.

 

I could go on and on and on, but have much work to do and my tree stand is calling.

 

I have dozens of pics sent to me this fall, but no time to post.

 

Tightlines,

 

John

Edited November 3, 2011 by john from craa

[vance]

WAY to many numbers and to much info for me to comprehend!!! BUT one thing is for sure EVERYBODY is doing their BEST.Just think what things would be like if everyone did NOTHING. Keep up the good work!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

vance

[craigdritchie]

Headed to the airport and I don't have much time to reply to any of this, but I do want to clarify that Jon's chinook figure includes US plants (my Atlantic salmon numbers don't). It's also important to note that not all those fish were ever in the system at one time - they were spread over a 42 year span.

 

Bottom line is, however, that right now, and for the past several years, Ontario has stocked roughly the same number of chinook and Atlantic salmon each year (approx 500,000 fish). The half-million chinook produce a viable sport fishery, while the Atlantics do not. The truth hurts, but there it is.

 

No question Atlantic salmon add value in other ways, as John, Louis, Justin, Aaron and others have outlined. And I need to emphasize that I would be thrilled to see this program succeed. But so far, the results have not materialized and I still feel we need to do more to provide a balanced fishery. We cannot rely on the Atlantic salmon program as the future of fishing in Lake Ontario.

 

Vance is right on the money - there are way too many numbers in this conversation, and there is clearly no shortage of passion. Wouldn't it be great to focus all of this energy together and build a fishery we can all be proud of?

Edited November 3, 2011 by Craig_Ritchie

[John Bacon]

Why not use broad stock from out east?

 

That would speed the process up; but there are other factors to consider.

 

Hatcheries who are willing to provide eggs may not be willing to part with their brood stock.

 

The MNR takes several samples during the development of the fish from the egg to adult stage. Long before a fish reaches adulthood, several of its syblings will have been tested for various deseases. If their syblings don't have the deseases then they probably don't either. This wouldn't be practical if you were starting with adults.

 

It is most likely against MNR policy to use adults to create a brood stock. There are valid reasons for these policies.