I need the name of a good lawyer Sudbury area

[Dara]

My hunting group bought a piece of land a few years ago and had the property surveyed. It showed that a neighbor had a building on our property. We told him he had to move it or it would be ours. He moved it. I think we could have just put up no trespassing signs and it would have been ours. If you bought the property, whats on it is yours, isn't it?

 

I like to keep it simple

[Jen]

If that was for me I'm a Realtor in Ontario and have been registered and working for 35 years. Nowadays I don't sell so much as my time is pretty well taken up with running an office, developing training and mentoring programs for our company and teaching aspiring realtors their pre-registration courses along with some continuing ed for the industry. That's why I asked Cliff for a little time on this. I'm kinda tied up teaching a course in Hamilton right now. Oh yeah, and I know quite a few lawyers. I've worked with some of them building the legal forms we use throughout Ontario as well as doing research for a few for real estate litigation. I may be fooling myself but I like to think I know more than the average Joe about real estate in Ontario. Any questions?

 

And I've bought a house or two in my day.

 

JF

 

Having been involved in real estate for my entire life, first through my family and then joining the industry as a realtor myself, I am aware of the amount of education it takes to make comments like the ones John has posted here. I would be thrilled to have an eight of his knowledge and experience.

 

Well said...

 

I hope the kids make out ok in this Cliff... Hard on anyone doing renovations not to mention adding the stress of horrible neighbors...

 

Good Luck.

[HTHM]

I wasn't sure, but I've had a long day in class followed by a 90 minute drive home in the rain. Maybe I'm a little testy tonite.

 

JF

Aren't you supposed to be GIVING the tests????? (groan)

[Twocoda]

this really puts a damper on ONE of the happiest moments in a persons life....

 

find the monuments ...string a line .....fire up the chainsaw if needed to remove obstructions for your new fence

 

Cliff...hope it works out well for the kids...

 

"good lawyer" "jumbo shrimp" "military intelligence"

 

oxymoron

 

 

John F -

[kerr]

no john that wasnt directed at you i was just kiddin around about the banter back and forth near the beginning of the thread, no bad intentions, just jokin around, seriously though good luck with the situation dude

[Cudz]

If that was for me I'm a Realtor in Ontario and have been registered and working for 35 years. Nowadays I don't sell so much as my time is pretty well taken up with running an office, developing training and mentoring programs for our company and teaching aspiring realtors their pre-registration courses along with some continuing ed for the industry. That's why I asked Cliff for a little time on this. I'm kinda tied up teaching a course in Hamilton right now. Oh yeah, and I know quite a few lawyers. I've worked with some of them building the legal forms we use throughout Ontario as well as doing research for a few for real estate litigation. I may be fooling myself but I like to think I know more than the average Joe about real estate in Ontario. Any questions?

 

And I've bought a house or two in my day.

 

 

JF

And you went to Waterloo!

 

My wife is a lawyer. I will try to remember to ask her when I get up in the morning.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Cudz

[Roy]

And you went to Waterloo!

 

My wife is a lawyer. I will try to remember to ask her when I get up in the morning.

 

But will she still be a lawyer in the morning?

[Twocoda]

But will she still be a lawyer in the morning?

 

 

doubtful.....i would think she would first be "Russian" (to the bathroom) then "wakin up" (with a cup of coffee)

[JohnF]

Having been involved in real estate for my entire life, first through my family and then joining the industry as a realtor myself, I am aware of the amount of education it takes to make comments like the ones John has posted here. I would be thrilled to have an eight of his knowledge and experience.

 

Well said...

 

Thanks Jen

 

I appreciate that coming from another realtor.

 

JF

[JohnF]

no john that wasnt directed at you i was just kiddin around about the banter back and forth near the beginning of the thread, no bad intentions, just jokin around, seriously though good luck with the situation dude

 

No problem. I was perhaps a little tired. Today I probably wouldn't even have noted it.

 

JF

[JohnF]

And you went to Waterloo!

 

My wife is a lawyer. I will try to remember to ask her when I get up in the morning.

 

I went there cuz Waterloo guys were better partiers, and the girls prettier. Of course I didn't tell my new wife any of that back then.

 

JF

[Billy Bob]

So what have we all learned here.....Search and SURVEY is IMPORTANT....much more than title insurance.

 

Good Luck Cliff, hope it all washes out in the kids favor but I think they will have many sleepless nights until it's over.

 

Bob

[JohnF]

So what have we all learned here.....Search and SURVEY is IMPORTANT....much more than title insurance.

 

Bob

 

I'll put on my teacher hat here because I have the weekend off and I'm relaxing with my second cup of coffee out of a mug instead of a cardboard container.

 

You're right BB. The survey is often a key ingredient in rural properties. As always, hindsight is 20/20 and in this case would have headed off the problem, or at least informed the kids that the problem existed before they had the title conveyed. In most urban transactions the property lines are generally more obvious and these situations tend not to occur or at least not with problems of the same magnitude.

 

A Realtor with access to MPAC/Teranet might have been able to help here by looking up the aerial photos of the property if they're even posted and comparing the building positions to the lot outline.

 

The title search wouldn't likely show anything about this if neither owner knew about it. The reason I asked about Land Titles registration (which is coming to the southerly part of Ontario but was a more common thing in the north) is that properties registered under Land Titles are less susceptible to claims by adverse possession because of the way they are recorded, guaranteed and assured. That being said I'm afraid this may be one of the rare exceptions but it would take lawyers to sort that out.

 

Finally the Title Insurance may or may not give some relief here. At first glance I'd say possibly not but it may come down more to what damage this does to the encroaching neighbour than to the kids. How's that for confusing. It may help to mitigate the problem or it may not. I don't know for sure. Once in a while I see a settlement by the insurer that confuses me.

 

But that doesn't mean Title Insurance isn't a good thing. Besides boundary disputes it protects in other ways. Title fraud has become a big deal now with crooks and sometimes crooked lawyers in collusion to register fraudulent mortgages and titles. It's really hard to defend yourself against it so the insurance is a blessing if you are victimized.

 

If I've explained anything incorrectly here I'd be happy to here from realtors or lawyers who can show me the error of my ways. I'm always willing to learn.

 

One thing I suggest though is to be very careful in acting on gratuitous advice you receive here or on other similar forums when dealing with significant issues like money, health and property ownership. All the advice is well-intended, but frankly some of it is incorrect or at best only partially correct or even applicable. I get a kick out of watching all the "AHA moments" as my real estate licence students figure something out in class or recognize a situation they've encountered as I tell my real life stories to them. "Is that how that happened?" is a common response to my explanations as we work through the material. It's obvious that they often didn't understand what they thought they understood as it was happening. There's a lot of work and due diligence done behind the scenes by lawyers & Realtors that the buyers and sellers in the transaction simply aren't aware of and probably wouldn't understand even if it was explained to them. Lawyers spend a long time in school learning some pretty arcane and convoluted stuff that you and I can only wish we actually understood. To a lesser extent we Realtors also spend time learning how to navigate the pitfalls inherent in real property trading. I even have a short course for my own salespeople called "Red Flags". It's all about anticipating where the problems are likely to arise for the consumer and how we can head the problems off before our clients get hurt by them.

 

I'll give you an example that will sound a little obscure but Fish_F should relate after all his studying. Depending on how old the properties involved are the title may include an old metes & bounds description of the property. I just finished teaching my students how to read a M&B description and the prospect of having to know this stuff worries them but they soldier on. It's confusing to say the least because south becomes north etc etc. But if a Realtor knows how he/she can actually pace off the property boundaries from the description and get at least a rough idea of just where the property boundaries are located. I'm kinda anal about this stuff so if I was dealing with a buyer interested in a property that the sellers claimed didn't have a survey or any clear and mutually acknowledged boundary lines I'd probably pull the deed to see what it said.

 

Fish, there'll be a test later.

 

End of lesson.

 

JF

[Big Cliff]

I guess one of the biggest problems is the cost of a survey especially for first time buyers, I know that in my kids case they had been working and saving for years to be able to buy a place of their own. When this place became available they had two choices, put their money up or miss out on it and wait for another year or two while prices kept going up.

 

It took every penny they had saved (well mom and dad might have helped a bit with a "wedding present") but they managed to scrape enough together to get the place. A survey would have cost them a few thousand more that they just didn't have although in hind sight it probably would have been money well spent but the choice was; get the place or don't.

 

Fences don't mean anything either, when we bought this place we got a survey done just to be sure. Turns out the fence is actually 2" inside of our property line and 8" inside down at the water. Doesn't sound like much if you have a good neighbour but remember water front property is assessed at $1200.00 extra per linear foot. so if you are paying taxes on something your neighbour is using and enjoying?????

 

 

I don't think anyone has done anything knowingly wrong here, I find it hard to believe that the neighbour would have knowingly built on their property had he realized it was but wouldn't he have had to get a building permit? I know when I built my boat house I had to show where it was going to be with respect to lot lines and everything, I had to insure it was a minimum 48" from the lot line. The kids neighbour only built his house about 6 years ago.

 

Questions aplenty, answers will come in due time!

Edited June 5, 2010 by Big Cliff

[JohnF]

I guess one of the biggest problems is the cost of a survey especially for first time buyers, I know that in my kids case they had been working and saving for years to be able to buy a place of their own. When this place became available they had two choices, put their money up or miss out on it and wait for another year or two while prices kept going up.

 

It took every penny they had saved (well mom and dad might have helped a bit with a "wedding present") but they managed to scrape enough together to get the place. A survey would have cost them a few thousand more that they just didn't have although in hind sight it probably would have been money well spent but the choice was; get the place or don't.

 

Fences don't mean anything either, when we bought this place we got a survey done just to be sure. Turns out the fence is actually 2" inside of our property line and 8" inside down at the water. Doesn't sound like much if you have a good neighbour but remember water front property is assessed at $1200.00 extra per linear foot. so if you are paying taxes on something your neighbour is using and enjoying?????

 

 

I don't think anyone has done anything knowingly wrong here, I find it hard to believe that the neighbour would have knowingly built on their property had he realized it was but wouldn't he have had to get a building permit? I know when I built my boat house I had to show where it was going to be with respect to lot lines and everything, I had to insure it was a minimum 48" from the lot line. The kids neighbour only built his house about 6 years ago.

 

Questions aplenty, answers will come in due time!

 

You're right about the fences, but the more people there are who think the property line is in a particular place the better the chance that it's close. Even one in disagreement waves the red flag and suggests that further investigation is in order.

 

And yes, it's surprising the neighbour got away with building so far off the mark assuming he got municipal permits etc. It raises a lot of questions about municipal inspections and construction without proper permits etc. The neighbour may well find himself with lots of problems if he didn't get municipal permission when he built.

 

It's a crappy situation for the kids but from a purely professional perspective it's a pretty interesting case study. I really hope it works out well for the kids. I'm happy to help however I can.

 

JF

[ScugogBoy]

You're right about the fences, but the more people there are who think the property line is in a particular place the better the chance that it's close. Even one in disagreement waves the red flag and suggests that further investigation is in order.

 

And yes, it's surprising the neighbour got away with building so far off the mark assuming he got municipal permits etc. It raises a lot of questions about municipal inspections and construction without proper permits etc. The neighbour may well find himself with lots of problems if he didn't get municipal permission when he built.

 

It's a crappy situation for the kids but from a purely professional perspective it's a pretty interesting case study. I really hope it works out well for the kids. I'm happy to help however I can.

 

JF

[ScugogBoy]

Mr john (teacher)....why not add into your advice that the Buyer should file a complaint with RECO about the Agent they used to represent them....is it not their duty along with the Selling agent to have verified this type of info? I would file a complaint and have the lawyer sue both Agents and Brokerages involved as they have not done their homework on this property....unfotunately the Agents/Brokerages will have to pay their deductible fee, but "Errors and Omissions insurance" will $$$$$ satisfy the Buyer.......what do you think?

[JohnF]

Mr john (teacher)....why not add into your advice that the Buyer should file a complaint with RECO about the Agent they used to represent them....is it not their duty along with the Selling agent to have verified this type of info? I would file a complaint and have the lawyer sue both Agents and Brokerages involved as they have not done their homework on this property....unfotunately the Agents/Brokerages will have to pay their deductible fee, but "Errors and Omissions insurance" will $$$$$ satisfy the Buyer.......what do you think?

 

I think I know more facts than you about this deal. You'll have to ask Big Cliff why they aren't starting an action against their agent but they have legitimate reasons that are really their business only.

 

However, you are correct in general. Any time a consumer feels they have been mistreated by a RECO registrant they have the right to lodge a complaint. It will be investigated thoroughly and if the RECO people feel there's grounds to go further they will assign the case to a tribunal to have a discipline hearing. We are mandated by law to carry very good E&O as well as insurance to protect consumer deposits held in trust and even our own commissions when owed by other brokerages. The great E&O is a blessing and a curse. Even when we aren't absolutely responsible there's a tendency to try to drag us into the action because we have "deep pockets".

 

There are a lot of consumers who refuse to accept their own responsibility or simple bad luck when a deal makes a left turn so they listen when their friends start screaming "SUE". For the most part their lawyers help them to see reason and that cuts off a lot of unfounded complaints from going further. Of those that make it to RECO there are quite a number that don't merit discipline and stop there.

 

By a funny coincidence I'm one of the Ontario registrants currently appointed to the pool from which these panels are chosen. I didn't bother mentioning it before. I think there are about 90 of us across the province. And before you make some comment about how that should guarantee that no one ever gets punished check out the public list of registrants who have received penalties from our panels. Some of them are pretty significant. Look under the Complaints & Enforcement tab on the RECO site.

 

More details here http://www.reco.on.ca/

 

Our industry really has little patience with our own members who don't follow the rules. It's a great system for the consumers' protection.

 

If you really feel you've been abused criminally by a Realtor you may want to go direct to the courts for civil litigation or to get them punished for some kind of malfeasance (or whatever the legal word is).

 

If you are having a legal problem with a real estate deal I would hope that your first thought is to get legal advice from a professional. Lawyers are well aware of the various means of recourse available to the consumer. If going to RECO is one of your options I would think your lawyer will point you that way. But in our defence we spend a lot of time in courses learning to do our work legally and ethically, perhaps as much as any kind of business in Ontario and more than most.

 

Any questions Mr Scugog(Boy)?

 

JF

[Terry]

why is it when great members of this board try to help people..some others have to jump all over them.....

 

if you have a different opinion or more information give it..but trying to put down someone else while giving your tidbit makes you look bad

 

 

 

John..a large majority of members really do appreciate you taking the time to help

[danbouck]

John..a large majority of members really do appreciate you taking the time to help

 

[Billy Bob]

It may very well be different in Canada but here in the states the real estate agent legally represents the SELLER of the property even though you may of hand pick someone to help find you a home...after all the SELLER pays the commission to the agent not the buyer...again it may be different up north......but many here think just the opposite.

[JohnF]

 

John..a large majority of members really do appreciate you taking the time to help

 

I know that, Terry, but thanks. I'm just dickin' around. Sometimes it's just hard to resist.

 

JF

[Dara]

How bout this view.

 

The kids bought the place looking towards the neighbor and figuring that their property ended just before his place. they were happy with that much land and bought the place. Now they find that their land may go past where they thought. Why get all upset about it. Find out the real deal, possibly get some compensation from the guy, have the taxes adjusted and be happy with their pretty little farm. Possibly having the neighbor under the gun and giving him an out would make him be a bit nicer too.

 

I don't know the details but this is just a thought on it.

[JohnF]

It may very well be different in Canada but here in the states the real estate agent legally represents the SELLER of the property even though you may of hand pick someone to help find you a home...after all the SELLER pays the commission to the agent not the buyer...again it may be different up north......but many here think just the opposite.

 

I'm not familiar with the laws in every state but generally agency law comes down to a fairly standard code. The different states and provinces have imposed some twists and turns in it by way of their respective legislation pertaining to real estate trading. In Ontario we have both seller and buyer representation and either can pay for the Realtor's services. In most cases, however, the commission paid to the listing brokerage is split between the buyer and seller brokerages. In the case where a brokerage puts together a deal for their client on an unlisted property the buyer may pay the brokerage that provided the services.

 

I believe that I've heard of some states that preclude one brokerage acting as agent for both the buyer and the seller so there are offices that specialize in buyer brokerage only.

 

JF

[JohnF]

How bout this view.

 

.... figuring that their property ended just before his place. they were happy with that much land and bought the place.

 

That's exactly the way one of our town's better lawyers always explained things to his clients (while he was alive) when this kind of thing happened. "What did you think you were buying?" and I tend to agree.

 

The problem though (and I don't have enuf details yet) may be that the property line on the other side may also not be where they thought it was and they end up effectively losing a lot of land here, not just a few feet of frontage.

 

The other and perhaps more serious issue is over liability for injuries, damages etc that may occur at the neighbour's house but are technically happening on their property. Why should they be responsible for that? There's also now the issue of ever trying to sell the property. The situation needs to be resolved and perhaps (probably) the kids are entitled to some form of damages or restitution here.

 

JF

Edited June 6, 2010 by JohnF