Governator Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 I would think the neighbour actually has squatters rights in this case. Basically wern't aware of their property over the line and since it's been there for so long it would remain as is. Of course if it's a portable building like a shed, that should be removed off the property but a fence, deck, foundation etc. I think is all squatters rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pikeguy Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Kids bought a farm in the Sudbury area. Next door neighbor turned out to be a real jerk, has been giving them a hard time for a while now about anything and everything. The kids didn't get a survey done when the bought the place, they couldn't afford it but they suspected that some of the neighbor's buildings were actually on their property. They just had a "building location survey done". Turns out the neighbor's house, septic system, deck, and a couple of out buildings are actually on their property. The kids want to know exactly what their legal rights are and how they should proceed from here. I have a feeling the neighbor isn't going to like what I think might be going to happen! Can someone give me the name of a good lawyer in the Sudbury area who should be able to stear them in the right direction. JohnF ever run into anything like this before? Any advice anyone? Like some other have said.Sudbury can be tight knit community. Here is a friend of mine out of Sudbury, He is in Verner with no ties to anybody in Sudbury think he might be a good way to go in this situation Alain Michel (705)594-1212 hope this can help you out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish_fishburn Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Jeez Wayne, I hope you went and had a talk to your Realtor. He or she should of recommended a condition to at least an inspection of the sewage system. Municipalities now maintain septic system records. Historical records must be accessed from the public health unit. These records usually consist of design drawings,and field reports completed at the time of the installation. Buyers should have existing systems inspected to ensure that they meet standards and are functioning properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Kids bought a farm in the Sudbury area. Next door neighbor turned out to be a real jerk, has been giving them a hard time for a while now about anything and everything. The kids didn't get a survey done when the bought the place, they couldn't afford it but they suspected that some of the neighbor's buildings were actually on their property. They just had a "building location survey done". Turns out the neighbor's house, septic system, deck, and a couple of out buildings are actually on their property. The kids want to know exactly what their legal rights are and how they should proceed from here. I have a feeling the neighbor isn't going to like what I think might be going to happen! Can someone give me the name of a good lawyer in the Sudbury area who should be able to stear them in the right direction. JohnF ever run into anything like this before? Any advice anyone? The first thing to do is find out if the property is registered under Land Titles or Registry System. Hopefully and probably it's Land Titles. This would perhaps be good. The next thing is to reconsider hiring a local lawyer. Sometimes local lawyers don't like to tackle old time locals, particularly while representing a newcomer, in nasty issues like this. Didn't they use a local lawyer to buy it? Other than that I have to give this some thought. A lot of things come to mind such as did the sellers know this and not disclose it? Was there an SPIS provided? Was the deal done thru a real estate brokerage? Did they buy Title Insurance as there's a possibility of some help there but I'm not certain. Perhaps best if I PM you later. I'm right in the middle of teaching a class out of town right now and just got home an hour ago with lots of prep to work on. Okay if I answer you tomorrow or is there some time issue? JF J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Everything is handled by the Title Insurance (if its covered). You call the place who holds the insurance, give them your information, they will ask for more details, bobs your uncle. If they don't have coverage under insurance, hit up the yellow pages. My situation was not covered by my title insurance so I had to get a lawyer, but your case is 100% covered (if they got the right insurance). I have the "gold package" which is standard as per my lawyer. Actually I doubt there is insurance coverage because the encroachment is the neighbour's buildings on your property. There would be insurance if it was the other way around. But I would want to get an opinion from a good real estate lawyer. Hope I'm wrong or there are other facts that apply here. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Sudbury is a smaller community with a lot of brother inlaws and second cousins. Think I might hire outside of the area. I agree. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 good luck Big Cliff. This could get Bigugli (sorry Bigugli -- I just couldn't resist) as depending on the length of time those buidings have been there, squatters rights may apply. Used to be a lawyer in the Toronto Star Homes section that had all kinds of info on this. I'm sure if you searched the star home section you could find a few columns and get his name. He would likely know someone up there. Other way is to contact the real estate board and ask for a real estate specialist - you are going to want one who specialises in this field. Case law is all based on precedent - and you will want one who knows the right precedents for this. hope it all turns out the way it SHOULD. Adverse possession (squatter's rights) may not apply if the property is registered under Land Titles but that is just a general rule and those kind are always open to interpretation as any good lawyer will tell you. I suspect this is a long time encroachment and that could affect a legal ruling here. The lawyer/columnist your taling about is probably Bob Aaron. I'll tell you about him in my PM Cliff. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Obviously your kids neighbour is in violation of the approved setbacks concerning septic systems and all buildings if there on your kids property. I would also do some homework at city hall on this matter. You've been reading your workbook again. But this isn't the right time for going down that particular road, at least not yet. There are much better issues to address first. Besides if the neighbour's house has been there long enough it may predate the creation of the local zoning bylaw and be viewed by the municipality as a legal non-conforming use, but as I said this is a minor detail in the big picture. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 I wish my lawsuit was as simple as someone having their structures built on my property. If the city says its not their property and its off their property line, then they have nothing to complain about. If it is their property, then title insurance WILL cover them. That's what its there for. Feel free to take me off your invite list. Title Insurance is a general term and I know you didn't read their policy, nor do I think you've actually read any title insurance document. Now you do understand what a title search is, I'll give you that. I don't offer my opinion when I don't know something... Sorry. Sorry Wayne! When a home purchase goes bad and you have to learn all these rules its not fun. I speak from first hand experience, just wanted to make sure people weren't misled. http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/english/pubs/consumerbrochures/undstitins.pdf Here's some bedtime reading for you. As I've already said I'm inclined to think the insurance won't help here but I'll try to track down a lawyer friend of mine who used to work for one of the Title Ins companies. He'll probably have a better idea than any of us. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 I believe you are just talking about Irish only. But I appreciate your input, it is more through than Irish's information. My lawyer told me face to face he does the basic search with the city and if nothing comes back red they purchase the insurance and sign it over. But no one ever said lawyers are honest... Hopefully yer lawyer meant he did the search at the local Registry office. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC1OZ Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Hopefully yer lawyer meant he did the search at the local Registry office. JF registry office is in the city building, all the same to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctdd2006 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Actually I doubt there is insurance coverage because the encroachment is the neighbour's buildings on your property. There would be insurance if it was the other way around. But I would want to get an opinion from a good real estate lawyer. Hope I'm wrong or there are other facts that apply here. JF \\ That's how I understood title insurance worked!!! When I bought my house, if down the road my neighbour or a new neighbour (neighbour sells) contests my garage, retaining wall, fence etc..my insurance would cover my ass to fix or settle in the case of encroachment!? At least that's how my lawyer justified me buying the insurance vs. a survey and seeing as I only had a close neighbour to the one side and it would be only me with walls and out buildings that could/would be in the wrong I chose the "cheap" option. Regardless Cliff...good luck to you and your family...not gonna be nice, easy or cheap I reckon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 registry office is in the city building, all the same to me. As long as your lawyer knows the difference. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daplumma Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Tell the kids to cut the grass on thier property,using a dozer or big rubber tired loader,make sure of the property lines.Hope there is nothing hiding in the grass....like a house or something. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 \\ That's how I understood title insurance worked!!! When I bought my house, if down the road my neighbour or a new neighbour (neighbour sells) contests my garage, retaining wall, fence etc..my insurance would cover my ass to fix or settle in the case of encroachment!? At least that's how my lawyer justified me buying the insurance vs. a survey and seeing as I only had a close neighbour to the one side and it would be only me with walls and out buildings that could/would be in the wrong I chose the "cheap" option. Regardless Cliff...good luck to you and your family...not gonna be nice, easy or cheap I reckon! Your lawyer explained it pretty well. In general it pays to fix problems caused by your property for abutting properties. But that being said I've heard of some payouts that didn't make sense to me based on my understanding of Title Insurance. There are a lot of things to be considered here. I've messaged Cliff with a few thoughts that I'd rather not share publically. http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/english/pubs/consumerbrochures/undstitins.pdf This explains it quite nicely. Be careful reading it fast because there are a few somewhat convoluted sentences that deserve very careful reading with an open mind. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctdd2006 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Your lawyer explained it pretty well. In general it pays to fix problems caused by your property for abutting properties. But that being said I've heard of some payouts that didn't make sense to me based on my understanding of Title Insurance. There are a lot of things to be considered here. I've messaged Cliff with a few thoughts that I'd rather not share publically. http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/english/pubs/consumerbrochures/undstitins.pdf This explains it quite nicely. Be careful reading it fast because there are a few somewhat convoluted sentences that deserve very careful reading with an open mind. JF ...good to know! Your professionalism and unbiased approach to which you share your vast "acquired" knowledge is to be commended! Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchy Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 A lot of things come to mind such as did the sellers know this and not disclose it? That was the first thing that came into my mind as well John. If they knew and didn't disclose it you have them over a barrel. Something to bear in mind Cliff. Not an easy thing to prove unless they were long term occupants prior to you kids moving in such that they would have to have known. Also, not sure that a local Sudbury lawyer is what you need. You need someone who specializes in this and knows what they are doing. You might be better looking in TO. Just a thought. I bought title insurance when I got my property and I was told it would cover things like a mortgage on the property you didn't know about, outstanding work orders against the property, unpaid bills against the property. Basically anything involving the property prior to you being the owner is not your problem. Whether that covers encroachment I don't know. Good luck Cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerr Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 look at how smart i am, ive bought a house or two and dealt with lawyers. good luck man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Cliff Posted June 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Boy, I really appreciate all the replies, opinions, and help with this. JohnF I will wait until you have a chance to talk to your lawyer friend. The kids don't have a lot of money, and they wouldn't have even pursued this if the neighbour hadn't been such a jerk lately. They bought this older farm and have been working hard at fixing it up so they are always broke and tired. I have sent my daughter an email with a link to this site/thread (and a copy of your PM JohnF) (partially edidted to remove the personal note you put in it for me). From the sound of it this isn't going to be quite as easy as going to the neighbour and telling him he either has to buy the portion of their land that his buildings and such are on or remove them. Thanks again for all the help and replies, I'll keep you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerritt Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 Tough situation you're offspring are in Cliff... I wish them all the best and hope they receive the outcome they deserve. If they are anything like you they certainly deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 4, 2010 Report Share Posted June 4, 2010 look at how smart i am, ive bought a house or two and dealt with lawyers. good luck man If that was for me I'm a Realtor in Ontario and have been registered and working for 35 years. Nowadays I don't sell so much as my time is pretty well taken up with running an office, developing training and mentoring programs for our company and teaching aspiring realtors their pre-registration courses along with some continuing ed for the industry. That's why I asked Cliff for a little time on this. I'm kinda tied up teaching a course in Hamilton right now. Oh yeah, and I know quite a few lawyers. I've worked with some of them building the legal forms we use throughout Ontario as well as doing research for a few for real estate litigation. I may be fooling myself but I like to think I know more than the average Joe about real estate in Ontario. Any questions? And I've bought a house or two in my day. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Posted June 4, 2010 Report Share Posted June 4, 2010 Don't worry about it John, you're well respected here. Some folks have problems dealing with alcohol or drugs.....sometimes the problem with them is as simple as finding someone to listen to them while they rant about the problems they've had to put up with in the mailroom today. All is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted June 4, 2010 Report Share Posted June 4, 2010 do you really think he was talking to you or was he just howling at the moon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted June 4, 2010 Report Share Posted June 4, 2010 do you really think he was talking to you or was he just howling at the moon I wasn't sure, but I've had a long day in class followed by a 90 minute drive home in the rain. Maybe I'm a little testy tonite. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skud Posted June 4, 2010 Report Share Posted June 4, 2010 It's nothing that an accidental brush fire can't fix when the wind is blowing in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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