More Brownies

[craigdritchie]

TDunn

 

MNR began stocking Atlantic salmon in the Credit River and Wilmot Creek in the mid-1980s, and the results were absolutely dismal. A handful of adults did show up in the Credit river, far fewer in Wilmot. By the early 1990s MNR knew they had a problem, so they shifted focus and tried to understand why the results were so poor. That research phase started in about 1992 or 1993. They tried stocking Atlantics in a number of locations and from a variety of sources, including both sea-run and landlocked strains.

 

After 10 years of this, they still had no results, and concluded that neither Lake Ontario nor its tributaries are suitable for Atlantic salmon reintroduction. In the lake, the fish suffer from thiamine deficiencies (as MJL noted in an earlier post) which lead to very low survival rates. In the streams, MNR concluded that Atlantics are unlikely to reproduce, as the juveniles simply cannot compete against juvenile rainbow trout, coho salmon or chinook salmon for either food or living space. They can spawn alright, but fry survival is the pits. MNR found that Atlantic salmon cannot adapt to the physical structure of most Lake Ontario tributaries, specifically the sandy/silty bottoms and sunken wood providing the primary form of cover. MNR said Atlantics need open streams with no silt and rocks or boulders as the primary form of cover - which was the way Lake Ontario tributaries might have been 300 years ago, but not today.

 

New York also had an Atlantic salmon program in the late 80s and early 90s. They poured hundreds of thousands of the things into the Salmon River and a few other streams, but the results were so disappointing they discontinued the program altogether after a few years.

 

The current Lake Ontario Atlantic salmon stocking program is a complete sham - it's partially funded by an Australian winery that uses it as a marketing ploy. No joke. And, sadly, still no results.

 

On a more positive note, MNR has stocked lake trout into Lake Ontario since the 1970s, and there are all kinds of them out there. Not sure if they're reproducing on their own or not ... if so, it's not in big numbers.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Craig_Ritchie

[tonyb]

Great info Craig, I would also add that I don't think the Lakers contribute as much to the overall fishing generated economy as much as Chinooks, Steelhead and Coho.

 

They do grow very large and are numerous, but they just aren't as popular a target.

[fish_finder]

TDunn

 

MNR began stocking Atlantic salmon in the Credit River and Wilmot Creek in the mid-1980s, and the results were absolutely dismal. A handful of adults did show up in the Credit river, far fewer in Wilmot. By the early 1990s MNR knew they had a problem, so they shifted focus and tried to understand why the results were so poor. That research phase started in about 1992 or 1993. They tried stocking Atlantics in a number of locations and from a variety of sources, including both sea-run and landlocked strains.

 

After 10 years of this, they still had no results, and concluded that neither Lake Ontario nor its tributaries are suitable for Atlantic salmon reintroduction. In the lake, the fish suffer from thiamine deficiencies (as MJL noted in an earlier post) which lead to very low survival rates. In the streams, MNR concluded that Atlantics are unlikely to reproduce, as the juveniles simply cannot compete against juvenile rainbow trout, coho salmon or chinook salmon for either food or living space. They can spawn alright, but fry survival is the pits. MNR found that Atlantic salmon cannot adapt to the physical structure of most Lake Ontario tributaries, specifically the sandy/silty bottoms and sunken wood providing the primary form of cover. MNR said Atlantics need open streams with no silt and rocks or boulders as the primary form of cover - which was the way Lake Ontario tributaries might have been 300 years ago, but not today.

 

New York also had an Atlantic salmon program in the late 80s and early 90s. They poured hundreds of thousands of the things into the Salmon River and a few other streams, but the results were so disappointing they discontinued the program altogether after a few years.

 

The current Lake Ontario Atlantic salmon stocking program is a complete sham - it's partially funded by an Australian winery that uses it as a marketing ploy. No joke. And, sadly, still no results.

 

On a more positive note, MNR has stocked lake trout into Lake Ontario since the 1970s, and there are all kinds of them out there. Not sure if they're reproducing on their own or not ... if so, it's not in big numbers.

 

I don't want to start anything here....but some of this information just doesn't add up.

 

I can say myself that I have alot of respect for that Australian winery. I mean really, a donation of 1.25 million dollars to help restore a species half a world away is quite admirable...regardles of them using it as a marketing ploy. The LCBO also tossed $200000 into the pot as well and continues to assist.....that I find a little upsetting as the LCBO can probably afford quite a bit more than that.

 

Tremendous work has been done to restore those streams that have seen stocking as well, and last year there were atlantics captured at fish ladders. On top of that, one stream also saw a massive coaster brooktrout captured in the process as well.

 

Again, I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but the restoration of a native species here is something we should all be approaching with open minds and giving our assistance wherever we can.

[kemper]

I don't want to start anything here....but some of this information just doesn't add up.

 

I can say myself that I have alot of respect for that Australian winery. I mean really, a donation of 1.25 million dollars to help restore a species half a world away is quite admirable...regardles of them using it as a marketing ploy. The LCBO also tossed $200000 into the pot as well and continues to assist.....that I find a little upsetting as the LCBO can probably afford quite a bit more than that.

 

Tremendous work has been done to restore those streams that have seen stocking as well, and last year there were atlantics captured at fish ladders. On top of that, one stream also saw a massive coaster brooktrout captured in the process as well.

 

Again, I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but the restoration of a native species here is something we should all be approaching with open minds and giving our assistance wherever we can.

 

Marketing ploy or not, its great that they are sending money but we have to be realistic. We stocked a million Atlantics and what...37 came back? When do we cut our losses and start stocking species that we KNOW are going to thrive. I really wish that we could get the Atlantics back, but it just doesnt seem possible and its sucking up a whole lot of money that could be used elsewhere.

 

Im no pro on the subject, but it just doesnt seem to make sense to pour millions into a program that has a success rate that is so low?

[fish_finder]

Marketing ploy or not, its great that they are sending money but we have to be realistic. We stocked a million Atlantics and what...37 came back? When do we cut our losses and start stocking species that we KNOW are going to thrive. I really wish that we could get the Atlantics back, but it just doesnt seem possible and its sucking up a whole lot of money that could be used elsewhere.

 

Im no pro on the subject, but it just doesnt seem to make sense to pour millions into a program that has a success rate that is so low?

 

Thats a very good point Kemper, but how many millions of steelies, coho and chinook were and still are stocked in order to keep up with the fishing pressure here. The fact that atlantics are now being found during their migration shows that something positive is occuring in our waterways!

[River Rat]

Lake O tribs will not support the Atlanitic Salmon. Period. The entire aquifer of the Lake O basin has changed and the Atlantics will not make a comeback no matter how many they stock, pen raised, adults or smolts. Period.

 

Stream rehab projects, scale samples, lamprey extermination, log jam removals, fish ladder installations and massive stocking efforts can not stop the oak ridges moraine from being drained to feed water to the North Toronto Communities like Aurora via pipelines and pump houses......or the bottled water companies from processing over a million gallons per day directly out of the Oak ridges and Lake O basin aquifer......

 

Water volumes decrease, silt levels increase....spawning grounds are choked and holding water disappears.....water temps rise and the whole time, countless anglers are stomping on redds, keeping maiden spawners for roe and smokers and

 

then, you have tons of guys posting "look at what a superior angler I am" pics and write ups on websites that get anywhere from 3000 to 8000 hits per day with backgrounds, baits and pretty much directions to the spot where a concentrated pod of fish are located so they can be pounded and harvested by 100's of guys you don't even know. Lake O tribs will not support the Atlanitic Salmon. Period. The entire aquifer of the Lake O basin has changed and the Atlantics will not make a comeback no matter how many they stock, pen raised, adults or smolts. Period.

 

Stream rehab projects, scale samples, lamprey extermination, log jam removals, fish ladder installations and massive stocking efforts can not stop the oak ridges moraine from being drained to feed water to the North Toronto Communities like Aurora via pipelines and pump houses......or the bottled water companies from processing over a million gallons per day directly out of the Oak ridges and Lake O basin aquifer......

 

Water volumes decrease, silt levels increase....spawning grounds are choked and holding water disappears.....water temps rise and the whole time, countless anglers are stomping on redds, keeping maiden spawners for roe and smokers and

 

then, you have tons of guys posting "look at what a superior angler I am" pics and write ups on websites that get anywhere from 3000 to 8000 hits per day with backgrounds, baits and pretty much directions to the spot where a concentrated pod of fish are located so they can be pounded and harvested by 100's of guys you don't even know. Lake O tribs will not support the Atlanitic Salmon. Period. The entire aquifer of the Lake O basin has changed and the Atlantics will not make a comeback no matter how many they stock, pen raised, adults or smolts. Period.

 

Stream rehab projects, scale samples, lamprey extermination, log jam removals, fish ladder installations and massive stocking efforts can not stop the oak ridges moraine from being drained to feed water to the North Toronto Communities like Aurora via pipelines and pump houses......or the bottled water companies from processing over a million gallons per day directly out of the Oak ridges and Lake O basin aquifer......

 

Water volumes decrease, silt levels increase....spawning grounds are choked and holding water disappears.....water temps rise and the whole time, countless anglers are stomping on redds, keeping maiden spawners for roe and smokers and

 

then, you have tons of guys posting "look at what a superior angler I am" pics and write ups on websites that get anywhere from 3000 to 8000 hits per day with backgrounds, baits and pretty much directions to the spot where a concentrated pod of fish are located so they can be pounded and harvested by 100's of guys you don't even know. But at least thousands of complete strangers know you are the best steelheader around right ?

 

I dunno, the Atlantic program seems doomed to me. What do you think ?

 

Sorry guys, little rant there.....

 

RR

[irishfield]

What do I think... I think there's a skip in your record! lol

 

I still think it's great publicity to sell Australian wine... and nothing more.

Edited March 27, 2009 by irishfield

[highdrifter]

On top of that, one stream also saw a massive coaster brooktrout captured in the process as well.

 

This the one?

 

 

link..

 

coaster

 

I think that's a drop back.. The forks have some suitable habitat for a fish like that. I've been told browns do well up river too. And isn't the term coaster particular to a lake Superior strain? I dunno.. I houve trouble picturing a brook trout finning around in the port!! Oh and they mentioned 3.2lbs for 18in..

 

this one's just under 21in, and it was just over 3lbs.

 

 

 

Back on track.. I remember being told that Atlantic parr have less water quality requirements than chinnie parr, and that their survival rate is higher. Is this correct?!

[Roger_Dodger]

the current Atlantic restoration program is a joke... a shame to see all that time, $$$ and resources pretty much wasted

[Jon]

Craig:

 

It's been a while since we've chatted. The last time we spoke was when we walked the Humber to check out the fishways. I hope things are well.

 

I will start by saying that I am a supporter of the Atlantic salmon program and have been involved over the last couple of years. I am also a steelhead, chinook, bass, muskie, crappie and perch fisherman. I am not expecting this post to convince people that don't support the Atlantic salmon program to buy in. I just want to put some perspective on the numbers of fish stocked in Lake Ontario.

 

I did a quick search on the Great Lakes Fishery Commission website, which has a fish stocking database for the Great Lakes (GLFC stocking database). The other information came from the Lake Ontario Management Unit Annual Report (Lake Ontario Management Unit). I don't think their numbers are completely accurate or up to date, but they are the best numbers that I know of. As of the writing of this post, the MNR page doesn't seem to be working.

 

The numbers show that in 2006, there were 644,650 rainbow trout stocked on the US side of Lake Ontario (GLFC database). The 2006 LOMU Annual Report indicates that 251,545 rainbows were stocked in the Ontario waters of Lake Ontario. The total is 896,195 or just 100,000 shy of 1 million. The GLFC database also states that 1,826,900 Chinooks were stocked in 2006 on the US side, with an additional 406,806 stocked on the Ontario side. A search of both web pages indicates that a total of 374,255 Atlantics were stocked in 2006 on both sides of the lake (345,455 in Ontario). Last year's confirmed returns of Atlantics were just under 50 fish in the Credit, with a few others in Duffins and Cobourg. All of these are believed to be the same year class (grilse). It will be interesting to see how many return this year with a second year class to add to last year's returns. How many 2 year old Chinooks would have returned from a 2006 stocking? Probably pretty low numbers as well.

 

Chinook salmon typically return to spawn in their 4th year. Therefore, fish returning in 2008 were largely a result of stocking in 2004. In that year, a total of 2,384,761 Chinooks were stocked in Lake Ontario (GLFC database). In the same year, 948,807 rainbows were stocked on both sides of the lake (GLFC database). 305,569 Altantics were stocked in Lake Ontaro in 2004, of which 35,865 were on the Canadian side. While certainly low, there were reports of a few larger Atlantics in the Credit last fall.

 

According to the GLFC database, Atlantics were stocked starting in 1986, rainbows in 1975 and Chinooks in 1969. Totals stocked over the years are 5,152,378 Atlantics, 26,453,636 rainbow trout, and 71,620,356 Chinooks. By the way, the GLFC database reports that lake trout were first stocked in 1963, on top of an admittedly low population, and continues to this day, with more than 400,000 stocked in 2007. I have no idea what the cost to raise these fish is but it is easily into the millions.

 

The runs of trout and salmon we see every year are made up of a number of year classes established over numerous years of stocking and wild production. The numbers haven't been there for the Atlantics and time, not me, will obviously tell if the Atlantic salmon reintroduction program is a success. While this assessment is by no means the be all and end all to this debate, I hope that it makes some people rethink this program.

 

 

Jon

[aniceguy]

trying to figure out who you are Jon Pm so we can chat Craig I ll buy you a few beers and explain exactly how the program is of benefit. Come by the ladder and we can chat

[Sinker]

Craig:

 

It's been a while since we've chatted. The last time we spoke was when we walked the Humber to check out the fishways. I hope things are well.

 

I will start by saying that I am a supporter of the Atlantic salmon program and have been involved over the last couple of years. I am also a steelhead, chinook, bass, muskie, crappie and perch fisherman. I am not expecting this post to convince people that don't support the Atlantic salmon program to buy in. I just want to put some perspective on the numbers of fish stocked in Lake Ontario.

 

I did a quick search on the Great Lakes Fishery Commission website, which has a fish stocking database for the Great Lakes (GLFC stocking database). The other information came from the Lake Ontario Management Unit Annual Report (Lake Ontario Management Unit). I don't think their numbers are completely accurate or up to date, but they are the best numbers that I know of. As of the writing of this post, the MNR page doesn't seem to be working.

 

The numbers show that in 2006, there were 644,650 rainbow trout stocked on the US side of Lake Ontario (GLFC database). The 2006 LOMU Annual Report indicates that 251,545 rainbows were stocked in the Ontario waters of Lake Ontario. The total is 896,195 or just 100,000 shy of 1 million. The GLFC database also states that 1,826,900 Chinooks were stocked in 2006 on the US side, with an additional 406,806 stocked on the Ontario side. A search of both web pages indicates that a total of 374,255 Atlantics were stocked in 2006 on both sides of the lake (345,455 in Ontario). Last year's confirmed returns of Atlantics were just under 50 fish in the Credit, with a few others in Duffins and Cobourg. All of these are believed to be the same year class (grilse). It will be interesting to see how many return this year with a second year class to add to last year's returns. How many 2 year old Chinooks would have returned from a 2006 stocking? Probably pretty low numbers as well.

 

Chinook salmon typically return to spawn in their 4th year. Therefore, fish returning in 2008 were largely a result of stocking in 2004. In that year, a total of 2,384,761 Chinooks were stocked in Lake Ontario (GLFC database). In the same year, 948,807 rainbows were stocked on both sides of the lake (GLFC database). 305,569 Altantics were stocked in Lake Ontaro in 2004, of which 35,865 were on the Canadian side. While certainly low, there were reports of a few larger Atlantics in the Credit last fall.

 

According to the GLFC database, Atlantics were stocked starting in 1986, rainbows in 1975 and Chinooks in 1969. Totals stocked over the years are 5,152,378 Atlantics, 26,453,636 rainbow trout, and 71,620,356 Chinooks. By the way, the GLFC database reports that lake trout were first stocked in 1963, on top of an admittedly low population, and continues to this day, with more than 400,000 stocked in 2007. I have no idea what the cost to raise these fish is but it is easily into the millions.

 

The runs of trout and salmon we see every year are made up of a number of year classes established over numerous years of stocking and wild production. The numbers haven't been there for the Atlantics and time, not me, will obviously tell if the Atlantic salmon reintroduction program is a success. While this assessment is by no means the be all and end all to this debate, I hope that it makes some people rethink this program.

 

 

Jon

 

I'm happy to see this thread has turned into an informative discussion.

 

Thanks,

Sinker

[craigdritchie]

Hi Jon,

 

Yes, it’s been a very long time indeed – several years and at least one wife ago! Things are awesome, thank you, and I hope they are for you too.

 

As your figures note, the State of New York stocks one heck of a lot of fish – which explains precisely why fishing on that side of the lake is so much more productive than it is here. I don’t know if you have ever had the pleasure of fishing in New York, but the numbers of fish are absolutely astounding. Compared to Ontario, it’s day and night, and that's why you see so many Ontario guys fishing in New York (and none of our American friends wasting their time up here). My only real beef is that a large proportion of the rainbows they stock come from hatchery brood stock – I would be happier if they were stripped from returning adults, but I appreciate the economics behind that decision.

 

As you note Jon, we stock approximately 250,000 steelhead on our side of Lake Ontario, and this (with help from natural reproduction) supports a sizable sport fishery. Yet in spite of the fact we stock even larger numbers of Atlantic salmon, we see very, very few of them survive. It is clear to anyone that steelhead survival is significantly greater – we all see steelhead and we all catch steelhead, as evidenced by repeated reports of someone going “8 for 12” on a given morning. When was the last time any of us went out and went 8 for 12 on Atlantic salmon? Apart from the CRAA guys working their fish ladder, have any of us even seen 12 Lake Ontario Atlantic salmon in our entire lifetime?

 

Not many people have, I assure you of that.

 

One has to question the value of any stocking program that produces such low returns that not even 50 individuals can be counted at a fishway. Why not put all this effort and money and hatchery capacity into managing steelhead, and provide tax-paying anglers with a fishery instead of a science experiment?

[craigdritchie]

trying to figure out who you are Jon Pm so we can chat Craig I ll buy you a few beers and explain exactly how the program is of benefit. Come by the ladder and we can chat

 

Hiya Louis

 

I'm definitely up for the suds, but that will have to be after the school year finishes (went back to university to complete a marketing degree). I'm sure we can find a nice sunny patio.

[kemper]

Just another point...

 

I personally would GLADLY pay an extra 40 or 50 bucks a year for a fishing license if it meant greater stocking in the great lakes of salmon and trout...and I wonder how many others would do that same?

[BillM]

Just another point...

 

I personally would GLADLY pay an extra 40 or 50 bucks a year for a fishing license if it meant greater stocking in the great lakes of salmon and trout...and I wonder how many others would do that same?

 

And you wonder why people travel to the US to catch steelhead..

 

Sure there is the whole quantity vs quality argument, but man.... It's fun to hook into 30 fish a day.. That would NEVER happen here with any type of frequency...

 

Some of the stories I've heard even make 30 fish days look like peanuts..

Edited March 30, 2009 by BillM

[Guest gbfisher]

donations work .............

 

and not the same fight there Bill......so a 30 fish day would kill anything more from the states!!.....

Edited March 30, 2009 by gbfisher

[Zebco]

What does our license money go to in the first place? They complain there aren't enough Mnr, they can't stock enough fish where is all this money going from our fishing license each year? Non- resident is like double our price so they should be raking in the money. NY non resident License cost about the same as our residents one do and they stock more fish, don't make since to me I see all the tourist heading to go fishing on the hwy in the summer, where does it go?

[CLofchik]

I'm happy to see this thread has turned into an informative discussion.

 

Thanks,

Sinker

 

The only information that's relevant is that Ontario has stocked the better part of a million Atlantics into Lake O, with captured returns measured only in the hundreds.

There's enough evidence now to safely say it's a dead end that should be abandoned. If an Australian wine company wasn't footing the bill we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

 

Just another point...

 

I personally would GLADLY pay an extra 40 or 50 bucks a year for a fishing license if it meant greater stocking in the great lakes of salmon and trout...and I wonder how many others would do that same?

 

It's become pretty obvious the only way to keep Lake O salmonid fishing going is to get out and get involved with volunteer groups that are keeping the fishery going. Ringwood, CRAA & St. Kitts fishing club are the volunteer grass roots people that will keep the fish around, not dumping more money into a ministry that gave up on Lake O a long time ago. CRAA is doing their steelhead lift, are you going to be there?

 

What does our license money go to in the first place?

 

General revenue. The MNR's priorities are logging & mining (i.e. where the $ is), recreational fishing fell off the radar a long time ago.

[bigfish1965]

General revenue. The MNR's priorities are logging & mining (i.e. where the $ is), recreational fishing fell off the radar a long time ago.

 

That is incorrect. All license fees and fines and fees attributed to angling and/or violations of angling go to the MNR Special Purpose Fund. The MNR is the only Ministry with such a fund.

[douG]

Special Purpose Accout

 

About $57 M annually.

[Paulus]

The only information that's relevant is that Ontario has stocked the better part of a million Atlantics into Lake O, with captured returns measured only in the hundreds.

There's enough evidence now to safely say it's a dead end that should be abandoned. If an Australian wine company wasn't footing the bill we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

It's become pretty obvious the only way to keep Lake O salmonid fishing going is to get out and get involved with volunteer groups that are keeping the fishery going. Ringwood, CRAA & St. Kitts fishing club are the volunteer grass roots people that will keep the fish around, not dumping more money into a ministry that gave up on Lake O a long time ago. CRAA is doing their steelhead lift, are you going to be there?

 

General revenue. The MNR's priorities are logging & mining (i.e. where the $ is), recreational fishing fell off the radar a long time ago.

 

I agree with every point except the atlantics. I share some of your skepticism, but the "hundreds" you're talking about are just a preliminary figure and comprised mostly of jacks, or "grilse." You won't see much more than that for at least a couple years, and wouldn't even if they stocked 4 million: most of the fish just haven't reached maturity yet.

 

If we planted 1,000,000 steelhead in the Don right now, just because there would be no fish next year or the year after doesn't mean the experiment failed. You'd be waiting til about 2012/2013 before there was a significant run.

 

So, to be fair, it's way too early to really be able to say that the Atlantic Salmon project failed. My own opinion is that it will work, BUT ( ) with a population that is not self-sustaining (such as steelhead) & will require stocking to be kept up. I hope I'm wrong!

 

p.-

[Grimace]

Just another point...

 

I personally would GLADLY pay an extra 40 or 50 bucks a year for a fishing license if it meant greater stocking in the great lakes of salmon and trout...and I wonder how many others would do that same?

 

 

Ontario is a big province. I do not think all of Ontario fisherman should have to pay 50 more dollars a year so Southern Ontario steelheaders can have a field day every time out.

 

I would pay more for my fishing license if it was evenly spread through the province.

[aniceguy]

good to see you went back to school Craig hope all is well you should come by the ladder at least once to re visit, Jon we can firm it up next monday night when we see each other but I ll gladly take you on a uS trip when you want.

 

I tried to stay out of this for a long long time but ohh well I guess I couldnt lol

 

We need to be careful on the stocking thing, before we stock or even over stock the lake there needs to be a series of questions answered, do we want a wild self sustaining fishery that will genetically diverge, or do we want a put delay and take fishery with no regard for the carrrying capacity of the N shore streams...thats the question.

While many OMNR models show the streams at carrying capacity, and lake wide recruitment being the real issue, and that harvest is at a 30% range I tend to thing the streams have more capacity but the reason they seem to have this recruitment issue still puzzles me and harvest is way more I have seen the modelling and IMO it was written without enough data to properly model it out, I have an opinion but its just that I do believe recruitment though is due to the phyto factor, god I love zebra mussels .

 

Rianbows, browns chinooks, coho's are all naturalized and hopefully are here to stay, slowly OMNR is turning a bright eye to them and thier importance, the Atlantics regardless of an opinion and Im not going to voice one here, have some major merit to them and the program, as some work is getting done on rivers much quicker then they would have for any other species. Yes they have moved hatchery capacity, yes they have had an inpact at the species at risk act ( SARA) the money is private money and let me make this point crystal clear.

 

Never ever ever in the distant past or even near future would any of the salmonids get that sort of money status or eyeballs on them, and as such its allowing other river projects to leap forward at an exponential rate. Without the Atlantics the Credit wouldnt have wild steelhead transfers in the fall, a fishway at Norval wouldnt be in the final stages of design and slated for construction this summer, SARA funding or many many other funding streams would'nt be open, cold water species benefit from this program.

 

Lets face another fact Zebra Mussels, and many more invasives have transformed how the lake is today, and short of dumping metric tonnes of phosphates in the lake its pretty much where it is a healthy and more importantly in balance eco system there certainly is more capacity for fish but why risk collapse or stunted fish

 

If one needs more proof on what can happen when predator is begining to come out of check and a bait fish collapse happens georgian bay is pretty close to home and shows that example.

 

More fish and bigger fish should be the goal of any sport fishery imo and to achieve that maximization of the ability to re catch a fish is what is needed, Imagine catching a 27lb chinook in the spring on flat lines releasing it to come in at PC or Bronte with another 10lb on its girth

 

Harvest needs to be in line with sustainable fisheries ontario while healthythe current fishery is not sustainable if managed for self sistaining fish populations

 

ohh to the fish ...... . . . who cares its silver it tugged the line and brought a smile beyond that who cares

[tonyb]

mmmmm phosphates