Water softener

[SirCranksalot]

I am fairly new to using a softener. We sometimes get a salty taste on the water the first thing in the AM. I think it's on the nights when it gets back flushed but I'm not sure. Is this normal?Is there some part of the instructions that I did not read? This has happened when the salt level has been fairly high as well as when it's been quite low. Any ideas?

 

thx

[aplumma]

Most likely you have a water source asking for water while it is regenerating. The unit does not actually close a solenoid valve and cutting off the water supply to the house.  This means a humidifier, toilet flapper or other action that water can initiate by itself is letting the water to flow into the lines. While this is not dangerous or a health concern it does mean you are losing water that you are paying for.  If you do not find anything running then your water softener may not be functioning correctly meaning the backwash cycle is restricted or the timer does not allow the correct amount of time to flush the bed on rejuvenation. 

Art

[Fisherman]

What Art said about something slowly running.  My Bro had a basement toilet that had a slow leak in the flapper, couldn't figure out why a single homeowner used that much water.  New flapper, no leak.  

[misfish]

22 minutes ago, aplumma said:

Most likely you have a water source asking for water while it is regenerating. The unit does not actually close a solenoid valve and cutting off the water supply to the house.  This means a humidifier, toilet flapper or other action that water can initiate by itself is letting the water to flow into the lines. While this is not dangerous or a health concern it does mean you are losing water that you are paying for.  If you do not find anything running then your water softener may not be functioning correctly meaning the backwash cycle is restricted or the timer does not allow the correct amount of time to flush the bed on rejuvenation. 

Art

Well this guy is a PLUMBER, so he knows .

[SirCranksalot]

Thx, Art.Nothing is leaking. I'm not sure what you mean by backwash cycle being restricted. You mean a line is somehow blocked?Would replacing the timer be the first way to fix?I have no idea of costs etc.

 

[aplumma]

1 hour ago, SirCranksalot said:

Thx, Art.Nothing is leaking. I'm not sure what you mean by backwash cycle being restricted. You mean a line is somehow blocked?Would replacing the timer be the first way to fix?I have no idea of costs etc.

 

If it is the timer assy or a restriction in the head assy. then it is time to call in a professional. It could be as simple as a port has debris in it or the head needs to be replaced. Since there are so many different styles of head assy. without a service manual specifically for the unit it is difficult for the untrained  to know the difference. With the cost of the head assy. if the unit is older than 8 years it would be a better approach to consider replacing the whole unit. The average life expectancy is around 10 years before the bed is fatigued and then you are dumping money into something that is not worth saving. The timer on some units can be replaced but it will not fix an internal issue in the head assy. The component they will replace is most likely will replace is everything on top of the tank reusing the bedded resin and the salt tank. The good news is we have made great advances in the technology and the new units use less water and salt to maintain themselves. I am in the US so prices are going to be wrong but an average price for replacement is $2000.00 USD so my guess of $2500.00 CDN should be close. I do recommend you place food coloring in the toilet tank for 1/2 hour without flushing it and if you see any coloring in the bowl then a flapper is leaking by before you call a Plumber. 

 

Art

 

[Fisherman]

Why are they sooo expensive in US, we can get them here for well under a $1000. 

[Rattletrap2]

I think the difference here Fisherman, is you are talking about purchasing a unit and I would assume, installing it yourself? I bought mine at Home Depot for around $600.

Art is likely referring to them as a plumbing contractor buying the unit, marking it up to some degree and charging for installation. They might also be dealing with a much higher end unit?

Just my thoughts.

[aplumma]

The base unit that we use is my cost $800.00 it  has programmable electronics, Brass gears, turbidity filters,  and actually measures the water so it only cleans itself when X amount of water is consumed.  I purchase nothing from big box stores because of the lack of support and the product make up is usually of a lesser quality. A mistake a lot of people make is that what the big box stores sell may have the same name tag on it but the plumbing industry has a pretty strong hold on making sure that the upgraded models are only sold through our warehouses. On average down here the plumbers are charging $125.00 to $175.00 an hour to offset the cost of doing business here which for me is $82.00 and hour. I do live in one of the more expensive places in the US which is good to do business in but tough to plan to retire in. 

Here is one of the units I install

https://www.water-right.com/sanitizer-plus/sanitizer-plus/

Art

[Fisherman]

Good info, thanks.

[SirCranksalot]

Thx y'all, esp Art

 

I think our unit is 8 or more years old so prob time to replace?

I thought that the electronics on top were merely 'bells and whistles' compared to the simpler timer that is quite similar to those used for light timers. Guess not, eh?

How do I know if the plumber I hire is just picking up a reg unit at Home Depot or similar? I can ask him if I know I can trust him, I guess.

Pretty sure I have no flapper leak because we are on a well and I hear the pump when it starts, at least when I am in the bsmt but sometimes upstairs as well.

[aplumma]

You can contact the local plumbing warehouses that are in the area and see which names they carry. The way to pick a good contractor in my opinion is let them come out for a water test and an evaluation. Ask them what system they use and ask questions as to how long they have been doing water treatment. How long have they used the systems and what exactly will it do for your water condition. If that person can answer your questions without making you feel like he is talking down to you and you are  comfortable that his answers are truthful  then he has passed the first hurdle. If the company is the type who does everything then find out how many technicians are factory trained and do they have access to the factory manuals. A company that specializes in water treatment is a better bet but may not be possible depending on the density of the population.  Find out if the person who is there is a sales guy or does he actually do the installs. I don't talk to sales guys because they are commission sales and that is an incentive for them to lie. (think Culligan) if you have those crooks up there. The price should be the middle one of three estimates. If it is to low pass and if it is to high pass. The way a contractor can make a price small is one of three ways. First cheap material, second cheaper labor, and third less profit. No contactor unless he has a really good reason will cut his profit. He can't tell his installer he will pay him less per hour so that leaves materials. Once you decide that the price is correct he should be comfortable with 50% down and balance on successful installation.  Finally remember contractors are only bound by what is written on the contract. Anything verbally said before, during and after is called fluffing and he has no obligation to fulfill his promises. 

 

Art

[Rattletrap2]

Art,

I have seen something similar to what you are describing about the quality of some brands of equipment in other industries. With welding machines, you can buy a Lincoln Electric 180 amp MIG machine at a big box store for about $300 less  than you can at a Local welding supply. However, they are not the same machine. If you look closely, the one from the welding supply has infinite adjustment of voltage and metal drive components. The Big box store version has switched or tapped voltage settings and plastic drive components. They look almost identical, but there is a big difference in quality.

I also know that a contractor has to stand behind what they sell, where with the DIY unit, you are on your own. Someone has to pay for expertise, knowledge, and service after the sale.

[KraTToR]

On 4/23/2020 at 7:49 PM, aplumma said:

The base unit that we use is my cost $800.00 it  has programmable electronics, Brass gears, turbidity filters,  and actually measures the water so it only cleans itself when X amount of water is consumed.  I purchase nothing from big box stores because of the lack of support and the product make up is usually of a lesser quality. A mistake a lot of people make is that what the big box stores sell may have the same name tag on it but the plumbing industry has a pretty strong hold on making sure that the upgraded models are only sold through our warehouses. On average down here the plumbers are charging $125.00 to $175.00 an hour to offset the cost of doing business here which for me is $82.00 and hour. I do live in one of the more expensive places in the US which is good to do business in but tough to plan to retire in. 

Here is one of the units I install

https://www.water-right.com/sanitizer-plus/sanitizer-plus/

Art

The water in KW is about 25 grains of hardess so I've been using a water softener since I moved there.  These are the guys I've always dealt with and as you can see, you can get a decent model for $1600 plus installation.

Watersmartsystems

 

 

[KraTToR]

On 4/24/2020 at 9:39 PM, Rattletrap2 said:

Art,

I have seen something similar to what you are describing about the quality of some brands of equipment in other industries. With welding machines, you can buy a Lincoln Electric 180 amp MIG machine at a big box store for about $300 less  than you can at a Local welding supply. However, they are not the same machine. If you look closely, the one from the welding supply has infinite adjustment of voltage and metal drive components. The Big box store version has switched or tapped voltage settings and plastic drive components. They look almost identical, but there is a big difference in quality.

I also know that a contractor has to stand behind what they sell, where with the DIY unit, you are on your own. Someone has to pay for expertise, knowledge, and service after the sale.

Exactly!  This happens all the time.  You have a retail outlet that sells enough volume to force the manufacturer get a special unit, at a discount.  The conversation goes "how can you build a similar version of your bestseller for less? most buyers going for the big box store version are weekend warriors so they don't need all the features and they'll never wear it out anyways"

I remember reading a detailed report on what Walmart does for a business class.  Its amazing what they'll go through to save pennies.

[Cast-Away]

Hey Art have you ever visited the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center?

[aplumma]

24 minutes ago, Cast-Away said:

Hey Art have you ever visited the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center?

As a matter of fact yes I have been there a few times. It happens to be about 15 miles away from my house and many of my visitors/ friends go there when they visit. It has an amazing amount of history for aviation from the smallest plane flown to the Space shuttle. If you get into the area it is well worth the trip. I am very luck being where I live with many of the big named pioneers in the political and science areas who I get to meet and talk to in my line of business. 

Art

[Cast-Away]

I have in fact been there and loved it. I have always been an aviation buff and fly RC planes so it is right in my wheelhouse. The SR-71 is my favourite all time plane and the way they displayed it is fantastic. 

For everyone in the GTA you can get there in 9 - 10 hours from our area as part of a visit to Washington DC.

 

[SirCranksalot]

Hi Art, 

Me again with another question.I have been quite lax in using the chemical called 'resin cleaning solution'. The brand I have is called Res Care. If I used that a few times----maybe make up for the times I missed?---would that possibly eliminate the salty water prob that I have-----Thx again.

 

[LeXXington]

Lot of great information here!  My Water softener  just past the 9 year mark and is due soon.

[aplumma]

The res-up is a fluid that we use down here. It is a super cleaner for the resin beads inside. It is used when a system does not remove all of the hardness from the water after it is rejuvenated. Think of it as super soap. The salt in the system is used simply as a cleaning agent for the beads inside. Think of them as sticky BBs that as the water passes through the minerals stick to them. Then the system sends water backwards through the resin to remove dirt particles. The system then sucks the salt solution into the tank and lets it soak just like a washer machine does. After it has soaked the system then runs water through the system to remove the salt solution. It then reverses the water flow inside and packs the resin back into place and puts the system back the way it started with a clean bed of beads ready to remove more hardness. So the only way salt can get into the drinking water is either the system while full of brine solution allowed that water to get into the water pipes meaning accidental or intentional water use at that specific point of the cycle. This is why we ask them rejuvenate at 2 am in the morning. The second reason would be that the water flow rate is to low to clear all of the brine out of the tank or that the time it takes to clear the brine tank is not long enough due to a malfunctioning timer. Third is that the flapper that controls inside of the head assy. is worn out and is not closing as it should and you are siphoning the salt solution into the unit when it should be sealed. Of those three the usual solution is to replace  the head assy. on units that are less than 5 years and the whole unit if it is over 5 years. There is nothing worse in my opinion than spending $1000.00 plus to repair a system and then throwing it away in a few years because the resin bed or internal passages are failing. That is just my personal rule some people feel like it is better to just keep throwing money at something because it is easier to afford $ 1000 bucks every few years It is your choice though. Remember though if you have any water movement during the time like a humidifier or a toilet or any other water movement that can let water through during the 2-3 hours while it is soaking a new system will not cure your issue you will be just wasting your money on a system that will not cure that issue. A good test is to turn the valve after the water conditioner that feeds the house off and force a rejuvenation  during the day. Let it run naturally through the process and then turn the valve back on and see if you still have a salty taste. If you don't then find your leak. If you do then the system is malfunctioning. 

Hope this helps

 

Art

[Rattletrap2]

I read somewhere when i was first looking into a softener that the amount of salt that would be added to your drinking water from the softener, was about the same amount of salt (sodium) in a slice of white bread. I was concerned about how our water would taste after passing through the softener. Well, I don't even eat white bread and decided to only run the softened water into my hot water tank. Thew cold water is left un-treated. Might be over reacting, but our water is not real hard (about 10 grains) and I didn't want to affect the taste.

[aplumma]

26 minutes ago, Rattletrap2 said:

I read somewhere when i was first looking into a softener that the amount of salt that would be added to your drinking water from the softener, was about the same amount of salt (sodium) in a slice of white bread. I was concerned about how our water would taste after passing through the softener. Well, I don't even eat white bread and decided to only run the softened water into my hot water tank. Thew cold water is left un-treated. Might be over reacting, but our water is not real hard (about 10 grains) and I didn't want to affect the taste.

With the newer units that is a true statement. The amount of salt remaining on a unit working correctly is dependent on what the hardness is and if you drink the 8 glasses of water a day that is standard. The exchange between the water softener is an ionic level meaning one grain of hardness is replacing one ion of saline.   I have never run it only on the hot water before but it will help save scale build up on the heater.  The  taste factor is when you strip out the minerals in the water it changes the taste. The only true tasteless water is after it passes through a reverse osmosis system or distillation. 

Art