NHL Hockey

[kickingfrog]

You used an image of a combat soldier for this discussion and I missed the point?

[ch312]

You used an image of a combat soldier for this discussion and I missed the point?

 

i believe you're fully aware of what i'm saying, but you're avoiding the truth at all costs.

 

hockey players are crying because they feel they're entitled to more money for playing a game while people that are serving our countries get paid peanuts to put their lives on the line and live in hell for months on end.

[Woodsman]

i believe you're fully aware of what i'm saying, but you're avoiding the truth at all costs.

 

hockey players are crying because they feel they're entitled to more money for playing a game while people that are serving our countries get paid peanuts to put their lives on the line and live in hell for months on end.

 

ch312 do you actually believe any Canadian soldier has redeployed to Afghanistan & only earns 20 grand a year.

Your so far off it makes your point completely useless.

Almost as useless as saying the players are on strike. The owners stopped the season instead of continuing negotiating to push their agenda.

A strike happens when the players stop the season instead of continuing negotiating to push their agenda which in this case did not happen.

[jedimaster]

I really hate to get into this fight here but a few ponts.

1) The soldier in that picture is american and not canadian, and although I do appreciate any allied solider, the picture would hold more meaning for me if it was of a canadian soldier, just the very same if it were a canadian soldier being shown to am american audience.

2)That picture if I recall was of bertuzi after dealing with the moore incident and not the strike. I doubt any hockey players are actually crying about this.

3)The salary as mentioned of the soldier is actually valid in Canada. I was in the reserves and could have deployed to a warzone but the timing wasn't there for me to do so as I was in school at the time, and I tell you this, I was making less that 20k at the time. You get paid roughly 44 dollars per day, of course rank and what not has an effect on the actual pay rate. Now for Reg force full time non officers, they start at about 33k per year for a private, and go up to 100k for a Chief Warrant Officer.

 

 

As for the complaining issue. Hell yah, of course they are complaigning. Would you? I mean should anyone making anything more than a private in the army be allowed to complaign? I complain and I do a hell of a lot less work than a Cheif Warrant Officer does. However I choose to be a civi and not in the Reg Force. Thats a choice. There is no conscription in Canada, although I think it would do some good.

 

I certainly don't mean to put down the army folks, as I have oodles of respect having put in 6.5 years in the reserves, its just that its a choice. Its not comparable. The two jobs are apples and oranges.

 

Are the Player's overpaid? I dunno, I guess that depends on your perspective. If you compare it against say a soldier, LEO, CO's, nurses etc... yes. But if you compare it against, basketball players, Baseball players, etc.. I think they are underpaid.

 

There work generates a certain ammount of revenue. Like it or not, Sidney Crosby generates more revenue than a Private in the canadian army. Due to economics the NHL player will get a bigger salary.

 

Thats like saying Stallone during the making of Rambo should have made about 3,000 dollars for shooting it. Its just not how the world works.

 

I mean lets all be a bit reasonable here and look at the facts.

 

The players said they would work during negotiations.

The Owners said no new deal, no hockey.

 

Who is to blame for there not being a deal?

Both, and the players and NHL has said that.

 

Who am I mad at?

The Owners and bettman.

Why?

They are CHOOOSING to cancel hockey without a new deal, when the current deal is the one they wanted when they locked the players out the last time, and its a deal where all but the teams that IMO should be folded are making oodles of money.

 

JMHO of course.

[jedimaster]

And the players actually said, no we don't like your offer, but we will continue to play under the current deal until we can work things out. its a chicken or the egg. In the end the Owners hav the final say if there is hockey or not. The owners say no. its my puck no hockey. The players are saying yes lets play and figure it out as we go.

 

Further to the complaigning issue as I really hate that argument... her eis another comparisoin for you guys with soldiers...

 

In the army I at IMP's for about 2 weeks at one point. It tasted like crap, but none of us complained. Does that mean noone in the world is allowed to complain about bad food? No thats just silly.

Edited September 21, 2012 by jedimaster

[tb4me]

And the players are refusing to accept the owners' offer, knowing it means hockey is cancelled.

Well with Tyler Seguin heading to sigh with a swiss team the players union is already showing a divide..It wont be long untill the players accept the owners offer..I hope....If more of OUR young stars head overseas the union will crumble eventually..Thats my opinion anyway. Today was opening day of preseason..Media day..THIS SUCKS.

[jedimaster]

Yah, in reality I don't care how much they make other than leaving salary cap room for the leafs to possibly improve. I hope one or both cave and a deal gets done. I love watching the Leafs. I will miss it for sure.

[Harrison]

It is not a union gents. It's an association.

 

 

 

 

Chris Lomon - NHLPA.com

September 21, 2012

 

 

For NHLPA member Dan Winnik, this summer has been all about one thing: communication.

 

A veteran of nearly 366 regular season big-league games, Winnik has been a busy man over the past few months, including his large involvement in the CBA process and a two-week trip to Asia.

 

“I’ve been fortunate to be part of a lot of meetings throughout the CBA negotiations,” said the 27-year-old. “I’ve had the opportunity to speak with a lot of my fellow players, some of whom I’m played with and some that I’d never met until recently.”

 

The level of contact, from NHLPA Director Don Fehr, to the interaction between the players, has been ‘unbelievable,’ according to Winnik.

 

“From young guys to the veterans, teammates or opponents, to Don, the communication is constant,” noted the 265th overall selection in the 2004 Entry Draft. “Everyone is engaged and aware of what is going on at every moment. I’ve talked to a number of guys, either in person, or on the phone, and every player has been brought up to speed. If you have any questions, they are answered immediately. The players are very comfortable in knowing they are aware of everything that is transpiring. Everyone is on the same page.”

 

There’s no disputing the players belief in Fehr.

 

“He has an open-door policy, where every player can call at any time and he’s available,” said Winnik, who appeared in 84 regular season games in 2011-12 between Colorado and San Jose. “We’ve been kept in the loop every step of the way…we have a great amount of respect for what he’s done coming to his role with the NHLPA. We were fortunate to get Don. He’s the best in the business.”

 

With the league-imposed lockout of the players now in effect, Winnik, who starred at the University of New Hampshire for three campaigns, understands the frustration of the fans.

 

“Before any of us played in this league, we were fans, too,” said Winnik, who signed as a free agent with Anaheim this July. “I was at university during the last lockout and it was disappointing to not watch hockey. We know it’s tough for them. They want to watch us play and we want to be out there playing.

 

“But in order for us to get back on the ice, there needs to be a fair deal for both sides,” he continued. “Our goal is to work with the owners to make the sure game is on solid ground, to grow the game and ensure stability. We understand the fans just want to see hockey. But this CBA will affect a majority of the careers of the players. We know the passion the fans have for the game. We want to play.”

Edited September 21, 2012 by Harrison

[Jigger]

My sister married a Swiss. Their home team is Bern. They signed Rick Nash and Jumbo Joe Thornton. Not everyone is depressed over this.

[BillM]

I love these comparison pictures, great for a laugh!

[Woodsman]

I really hate to get into this fight here but a few ponts.

 

3)The salary as mentioned of the soldier is actually valid in Canada. I was in the reserves and could have deployed to a warzone but the timing wasn't there for me to do so as I was in school at the time, and I tell you this, I was making less that 20k at the time. You get paid roughly 44 dollars per day, of course rank and what not has an effect on the actual pay rate. Now for Reg force full time non officers, they start at about 33k per year for a private, and go up to 100k for a Chief Warrant Officer.

 

Obviously you also have no clue on current pay rates and policies.

1. The lowest current pay rate for a reservist is $88.51 per day.

2. By the time anyone is trained to the standards to be able to deploy they will no longer be at the lowest rate. Basic training plus trades training plus work up training for the tour would take close to 1.5 years if everything happened bang, bang, bang.

3. All Reservist's deploying to Afghanistan are put on Class C service which uses Regular Forces pay scales.

4. As the photo that started this it said "redeploys" inferring a second deployment at least. With enforced time between deployments we are now talking a minimum of Corporal basic and even that is unlikely.

5. Corporal basic is minimum $4622 per month. To this add danger pay, separation pay ect. and you are well over $60,000 a year. Taking into account a great portion of the pay will overseas will not be taxed it will have a far higher value.

 

If someone is going to use figures to argue their point at least use the correct numbers.

Do not take this as a complaint about our troops being overpaid because I believe they fully deserve and earn their pay.

 

BTW: I spent 13 years in the Canadian Forces and did one overseas peacekeeping tour for just over 6 months in length.

 

Pro Patria: Rick

[jedimaster]

Considering that picture is about what 6 years old using the current rates is a little bit misleading anyway. And they were using yearly amount not rates during deployment. Not many resvists that I know of had a stay for longer than 6 months, so your basically getting half a year worth of reg force pay and and half a year at reservists pay. so its not going to be anywhere near 60k per year.

[jedimaster]

But just to use the current pay scales....

6 months as a corporal in the reservers, 2 weekends plus a half day for fridays, 4 half days per month at 129 per day comes out to... 903 per month, for 6 months... is

$5418.00

 

Now add 4622 per month a for 6 months at reg force pay... thats 27.7k plus the 5418 thats 33,150 for the year, plus danger and seperation pay. I believe in afghanistan a corp was getting about 1,900 in danger pay per month. Added to that it used to be about 11 dollar per day for seperation pay.. thats 1980 for 6 months.. so thats an additional $13,380 dollars in danger and separatation for a 6 month tour.

However we both know they won't be away for 6 months, maybe 5 months of that, but use the full 6 months anyway...

 

So 33.1k plus 13.4 is about 46k per year, for a reservist corporal, that has a 6 month tour in an actual danger zone. Far from 60k per year as you suggest. Yes you are granted an extra 6k or so in tax free income, but at that tax bracket it doesn't amount to a whole lot.

 

Eiter way the whol point is that yes even though someone in the army make a tiny amount of money compared to a Project Manager or a Hockey Player, or a Gas Station owner, the jobs are not comparable, and I don't see the validity in that comparision. Becuase some people choose to work harder for less in more danger it doesn't mean those that make more for doing less in less dangerous conditions shouldn't be paid that way.

 

Heck if that was ture I would make 10 times what my boss makes, but thats going to happen now is it.

 

and btw not everyone gets separation pay. Not everyone is married or common law. I know I wasn't when I was in.

Edited September 21, 2012 by jedimaster

[jedimaster]

Here is a new one...

from tsn

 

EDMONTON -- The NHL players' union says the argument is simple: Alberta labour laws apply to the Edmonton Oilers and Calgary Flames.
The NHL Players' Association is in Edmonton trying to get the Alberta Labour Relations Board to declare the current lockout illegal.
NHLPA lawyer Bob Blair says the teams are Alberta businesses, so provincial labour laws have to be followed.
A lawyer for the NHL has already argued that it's impossible for a 30-team league spanning two countries to operate under different laws for each franchise.
And Bill Daly, the league's deputy commissioner, told the labour relations panel there's never been any individual bargaining between players and their teams.
He said it's important that all teams operate under the same rules.
The lockout began last Saturday at midnight and several players have already signed with teams in Europe.

 

I find it interesting that the NHl would think that it should be allowed to operate a franchise in a jurisdiction without having to abide to local laws. Seems weird. I don't know of any companies that are allowed to pick and choose what law it has to abide by when operating in mulitple jurisdictions.

[Woodsman]

But just to use the current pay scales....

6 months as a corporal in the reservers, 2 weekends plus a half day for fridays, 4 half days per month at 129 per day comes out to... 903 per month, for 6 months... is

$5418.00

 

Now add 4622 per month a for 6 months at reg force pay... thats 27.7k plus the 5418 thats 33,150 for the year, plus danger and seperation pay. I believe in afghanistan a corp was getting about 1,900 in danger pay per month. Added to that it used to be about 11 dollar per day for seperation pay.. thats 1980 for 6 months.. so thats an additional $13,380 dollars in danger and separatation for a 6 month tour.

However we both know they won't be away for 6 months, maybe 5 months of that, but use the full 6 months anyway...

 

So 33.1k plus 13.4 is about 46k per year, for a reservist corporal, that has a 6 month tour in an actual danger zone. Far from 60k per year as you suggest. Yes you are granted an extra 6k or so in tax free income, but at that tax bracket it doesn't amount to a whole lot.

I guess letting the facts not confuse your point is not a strong point for you.

Your first big mistake is the work up training is 9 - 12 months full time at full time pay plus the 6-10 month tour. No reservist leaves their reserve unit to proceed directly overseas without the possible extremely rare exception & this would never be a reserve Corporal. Maybe a medical Doctor but this would also be rare without some pre-deployment work up.

You also forgot to add FOA (field operations allowance for the training periods out of posted location) plus separation allowance if the reservist has a spouse or dependent for the total time of the contract. I was actually underestimating the monetary compensation for a reserve Corporal for one year including the tour time. Total time required for tour would be a minimum of 15 months up to 20 months. Also you could add on free room & board for the total time as it is an attached posting.

If the single reservist has furniture & effects & a vehicle these would also be packed and stored at no cost to the member.

 

Back to my previous statement "Obviously you also have no clue on current pay rates and policies."

[ch312]

jeez, some of you (biased hockey fans?) are looking into that picture WAAAAY too much. it's NOT the actual picture i wanted you guys to think about, it's the message behind it. clearly some of you lack the intellect to put two and two together, eh bill?

 

 

i hope you guys put as much thought into issues that actually matter to society...

[ch312]

And the players are refusing to accept the owners' offer, knowing it means hockey is cancelled.

 

biased fans can't grasp the concept that if the players really "love the game and want to make the fans happy" they'd gladly accept cuts to keep on playing. but, they wouldn't accept it as they'd prefer to negotiate while continuing on with the season to get as much money as possible.

 

like i said before, both sides are equally at fault. it's much easier to see this when your opinion is 100% unbiased

[Roy]

In keeping with the original topic which is hockey, do the zamboni drivers get paid mileage? In the event of a full season lockout, will the zambonis need to be winterized? If so, who pays for that?

[ch312]

The taxpayers Roy....same people who will be paying for EI for the zamboni driver, arena ushers, concessions stand workers....

 

well, at least they'll have some time to play...

 

 

:P

 

 

 

seriously though, i don't think anyone has really thought about the rest of the people involved with the game that will be effected by the strike. anyone have some numbers on how many people in the "other" category are going to be jobless due to the strike?

[Woodsman]

The taxpayers Roy....same people who will be paying for EI for the zamboni driver, arena ushers, concessions stand workers....

Gee I was under the impression that EI was paid out of the EI fund which is paid into by both the workers & employers.

If the taxpayers are paying the benefits I'll have to find out why I'm paying almost $15 a week (plus my employers contribution goes there also) to a fund that's not used.

[Woodsman]

seriously though, i don't think anyone has really thought about the rest of the people involved with the game that will be effected by the strike. anyone have some numbers on how many people in the "other" category are going to be jobless due to the strike?

Again not letting the facts confuse your point.

Why call it a strike when it is a lockout?

A big difference due to who made the decision to halt the season.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Woodsman

[Woodsman]

The players made the decision to halt the season.

You must be wearing one heck of a set of blinders to have such a narrow view of the situation.

[Woodsman]

The state of things right now, you aren't banking money to be paid back to you.... Just like your pension. You're paying for people who need benefits NOW.... Actually, youre paying the interest on the debt of the money being given to those who need EI now.

 

Don't believe for a second there a bank account with your name on it containing you EI and pension payments, ready and waiting.

Actually there is a separate EI fund which is in access of what is being paid out on EI claims. It is not a fund in individuals names but like any insurance a large fund of the whole which pays out the claims.

The government has been known in the past to raid this fund for other reasons when the surplus gets larger.

There is no interest being charged on the the money due to lack of funds.

[Woodsman]

Our national debt is a fact which costs us big interest. This I agree with.

The EI fund is not part of our national debt though and it's surpluses have been siphoned off in the past to service the national debt.

[Woodsman]

Regarding the semantics of a strike versus a "lockout".

 

If you make a decision to refuse an offer, which you knowingly understand to precipitate a subsequent refusal of employment, did you not refuse employment?

Not at all.

Although I have not seen the actual contract the was in use before the lock out I have seen many in the past.

Every contract I've ever seen included a clause to the effect of "after the expiration date of this contract it will remain in effect unless either party notifies the other of their intention to cancel the existing contract".

This is what the NHL owners have done.

The players were abiding by their existing contract so in no why did they refuse to work.

The owners chose to stop the work (season).