Billionaire US Citizen blocking access to public lakes

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

retired at 48... taking trips to vegas... i don't want to hear ANY MORE about the new york state tax rates mister bubba! seems you've benefited just fine from the present system!

Edited April 5, 2012 by Dr. Salvelinus

[kickingfrog]

I believe you are incorrect......if I'm doing the speed limit where does it say I have to be in the far right lane so you can speed and drive recklessly because you didn't get up in time to get to work... ..PLEASE post this highway act not only for me but anyone else that drive responsibly in Ontario....if I'm wrong, I ride the curb if that makes you feel better....but if you're wrong and speeding is not allowed and lane jumping is not allowed....well then you must vow to drive the speed limit for 1 year....

 

I am not.

 

147. (1) Any vehicle travelling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 147 (1).

Exception

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a driver of a,

(a) vehicle while overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;

( vehicle while preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; or

© road service vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 147 (2).

 

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm#BK226

 

Don't let the facts get in the way of your arguments because you'd have very little to say.

[woodenboater]

I think you may have Kickingfrog on this point if you are indeed at the speed limit. There is however, the law and what is courteous. Taking up the middle lane, as I see it from my years on the road, forces drivers to either go inside or outside to pass and this can be unsafe if you have twitchy/nervous drivers around you. If the right lane is wiiiide open, I'll take it and set the cruise. As a rule, I don't take the middle and stay there the entire trip.

 

have fun in Sin City and make sure you hit Battistas Hole in the Wall

[workwear]

my opinion on this...is that the so called billionaire has done nothing wrong as to keep trespassers off of his land...who am i to tell him what to do with his money...im sure he pays taxes and hasn't murdered anyone to get his riches...if he can influences the so called powers at be...why should we begrudge him...he has the power and is able to do whatever he can within the laws..

 

 

regardless if the so called water is public is irrelevant here...he owns the property around the lake...

you have to trespass to get to the water....and thats illegal

 

the person to blame here is the goverment...they sold him the land

the government should be held accountable...not the billionaire

 

 

 

now having said that the government is to blame, we have to understand why would the government sell out to the rich...and here lies the problem we face in the world today..in my opnion the government is up for sale to the highest bidder....happens all the time

 

if we have a beef with this...damn the government not the billionaire

[irishfield]

my opinion on this...is that the so called billionaire has done nothing wrong as to keep trespassers off of his land...who am i to tell him what to do with his money...im sure he pays taxes and hasn't murdered anyone to get his riches...if he can influences the so called powers at be...why should we begrudge him...he has the power and is able to do whatever he can within the laws..

 

 

regardless if the so called water is public is irrelevant here...he owns the property around the lake...

you have to trespass to get to the water....and thats illegal

 

the person to blame here is the goverment...they sold him the land

the government should be held accountable...not the billionaire

 

 

 

now having said that the government is to blame, we have to understand why would the government sell out to the rich...and here lies the problem we face in the world today..in my opnion the government is up for sale to the highest bidder....happens all the time

 

if we have a beef with this...damn the government not the billionaire

 

 

Thanks for that Peter!!

 

Always a why him not me world it seems. My mother grew up on the West shore of Glamour Lake (Little Bear in her days), inlet dam to outlet dam. Her Uncle paid for that land with what little he had and also paid someone to build them a home cira 1900 or so. After a few days of walking, from where they were dropped from the train and a horse carrying their gear, they arrived to find that the guy that they paid to build a home had squandered the money and they arrived to find a hand dug footing.. nothing more.. in NOVEMBER. They survived in a make shift lean too and hand sawed all the boards to get a house started before they froze to death as winter was setting in. A couple decades later with my Grandmother and Grandfather living there, My mother was born in 1926. Her father left home to find work and never came back during the depression. She became the "father" of the family being the oldest to help Gramma raise her 5 siblings. Time goes on and even when I was a kid and going to Grammas in the summers (late 60's early 70's), there wasn't another single sole on that lake nor a boat that ever passed by to my remembrance. It was ours to play on. Years fly by and the crown sold off the entire East, North and South shores. My Uncle, now 85 years old would like to severe up some of that massive piece of property. Told he can't.. too many people already on the lake! The Government made their money selling off the land, but my uncle isn't allowed to. I suspect the next generation, that the land will be left to, may have some energy to attend OMB. I'm in a similar battle up North.. owing the oldest privately owned parcel of land on a lake (20 years before the first cottage) and told by all the "newbies" there's enough cottages already and I'm not allowed to develop.

Edited April 6, 2012 by irishfield

[workwear]

time to buy a few politicians and start playing the game!!!

 

i see it all the time with developers and Councilors....

 

its an unfortunate system....but thats how it works...wrong or right

[irishfield]

It's amazing how cheap some can be bought as well. All it takes is a private boat dock on some lakes...

[camillj]

Darn .. so I guess I am in trouble now that just bought some (family owned) waterfront property... guess now everyone should feel free to use the road I paid for, and the dock I built with my money and sweat .. and perhaps even nap in the Hammock which hangs between the two trees we planted over a generation ago. Heck ... why not feel entitled to sample the food in the fridge of the cottage which is never locked ... after all its right in the middle of a natural paradise.

 

Don't get me wrong folks, I have enjoyed public lands all my life and hope I will always be able to do so ... but when someone pays AFTER TAX DOLLARS ... especially to the government for crown land - they should have every right to expect their property rights be protected - and if someone is uttering threats about doing harm to them or their property they also have the right to expect to have protection from their government.

 

Any other attitude would require us all to arm ourselves to be able to provide our own protection .. and that is NOT what my Canada is all about.

Edited April 6, 2012 by camillj

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

i have no sympathy for ANYONE trying to claim a lake or a road built with public dollars (with historical access right).

 

i don't condone property damage but i fully condone fishing these contested areas whenever possible whether it be a marina in cobourg or a lake being blocked off by billionaires... same crap, different pile, and i'm glad most of you think this is crap.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Dr. Salvelinus

[workwear]

hey doc...while your passion for this topic is admirable....take your fight to the right ppl...ITS NOT THE OWNERS FAULT!!

[aplumma]

Why do you feel that because a man who works hard and has money needs sympathy? This is a legal issue not a wish fest for what people want that can't have. Talk to the government that allowed this man to purchase 100% of the land around this lake. Can a community up North buy all of the land around a lake and not have a public boat ramp on it? Does every body of water no matter how small need a public right of way? Complain all you want about the people that have worked hard to get a piece of land or even a whole lake it just smoke until you get off your butts and take action in the political arena.

Complaining is the easiest thing to do and a spirited discussion on a forum is still nothing more than entertainment for the masses here no matter what side you are on. On the same note the rash of political rabble raising lately has and will be allowed as long as it does not become full of personal attacks or break any of the other rules here. My parting though is from a quote I have forgotten the Author but here it is

 

Human nature compels most of use to watch a train wreck and given time to call a friend to watch it with.

 

 

Art

[Grimace]

The roads are public. He is dumping tree stumps on the public road to a public lake. He is wrong. He is breaking the law. Why the law is not being enforced is a fair question.

 

The fact that his power and money are allowing him to break the law is something to be concerned about. The people here are suggesting that the man is well within his rights to do this are just plain wrong.

[zamboniwaterboy]

Heres how i see it from the other side of the fence wearing the other guys shoes , i'am only writing this so ill know that every one here did take a look at the both sides of this story , i wont be sticking around to defend it either . I once worked for a guy like this and because of his wealth and for what all he owned i was never comfortable in letting any one know who i worked for , besides him not being to well liked by the less fortunates around . Some here will know who am talking about when i say Cold Spring Farms with Harvey Beatty as its owner . I did grow up on a small famiily farm and real enjoyed the oppertunity Cold Springs gave but i was still shy to say so till one day they did an interveiw with Harvey on national tv . Because of who he now was , they atacted him pretty good , and their main consern was how big he had become and how he might be hurting others . What they did'nt talk about was the four hundred or more people he employed and how he was considered to be a god send to his community . When Harvey was asked the question about weather or not he thought he was hurtting the smallers guys around who were trying to make a living doing the same things farming , his answer ........... Harvey said he did'nt think he was hurting any one because he had started off as just a small family farm him self . So for me when i put the shoe on the other foot so to speak and if i was either lucky or worked my butt off , in most case's its worked your butt off and some of us do that a bit better then others i'd have to say . Amagin if this was you and you managed to buy land up with your hard earn money like we all do because thats how we get to keep it ............ then have a group come one day and tell you they have rights to part of it ? When i read the above post i could'nt help but think how i might have aproched this land owner with a commity of buisness men with a buisness proposition that might have been a win win for every one on sharing this body of water ....... but first , dose any one know if the fishing is any good there ? Have fun with it gentlmen and thank you for letting me add my twist to it .

 

It is a PUBLIC LAKE!!!

 

 

 

[zamboniwaterboy]

Darn .. so I guess I am in trouble now that just bought some (family owned) waterfront property... guess now everyone should feel free to use the road I paid for, and the dock I built with my money and sweat .. and perhaps even nap in the Hammock which hangs between the two trees we planted over a generation ago. Heck ... why not feel entitled to sample the food in the fridge of the cottage which is never locked ... after all its right in the middle of a natural paradise.

 

Don't get me wrong folks, I have enjoyed public lands all my life and hope I will always be able to do so ... but when someone pays AFTER TAX DOLLARS ... especially to the government for crown land - they should have every right to expect their property rights be protected - and if someone is uttering threats about doing harm to them or their property they also have the right to expect to have protection from their government.

 

Any other attitude would require us all to arm ourselves to be able to provide our own protection .. and that is NOT what my Canada is all about.

 

EVERYONE THAT PAY TAXES pays for crown land!

[express168]

The issue is not the land he owns but access because of the public road, the road may have been included in some of this purchase. The transactions need to be reviewed, the province can sell a public roadway hence the privately owned 407 in Ontario. I am not picking sides but I am sure his lawers did a very good job laying out these land purchases to protect his interests just as your lawyer should have when you bought property. Everyone here who is saying that nature can't be owned, give up your homes and property because that was all nature before it was developed and built on just on a smaller scale than this guy.

 

 

Everyone likes to believe that billionaires all inherited their money, some likes Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg,Buffet, Basille, came from families that weren't poor but they created their ideas and earned their billions. There are many others, Micheal Dell, Oprah, Walton,John paul De Joria, Ralph Lauren, just to name a few that started from very little. Don't be upset that they made it, even if your born into it you need to be smart enough to keep it, plenty of fortunes disappear after the idiot son takes over the business. Don't blame him for making it, blame the government for a poorly made deal if that occured. Your right we would all be billionares if it were easy but its not, they do keep many of us employed and if you feel like a slave working for them than do something for yourself and move on. Problem is we are so comfortable that we don't wish to take the risks and challenges, and then just bugger about the ones that did and made it.

 

Sorry just my rant for the day.

[Jer]

The issue is not the land he owns but access because of the public road, the road may have been included in some of this purchase. The transactions need to be reviewed, the province can sell a public roadway hence the privately owned 407 in Ontario. I am not picking sides but I am sure his lawers did a very good job laying out these land purchases to protect his interests just as your lawyer should have when you bought property. Everyone here who is saying that nature can't be owned, give up your homes and property because that was all nature before it was developed and built on just on a smaller scale than this guy.

 

 

Everyone likes to believe that billionaires all inherited their money, some likes Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg,Buffet, Basille, came from families that weren't poor but they created their ideas and earned their billions. There are many others, Micheal Dell, Oprah, Walton,John paul De Joria, Ralph Lauren, just to name a few that started from very little. Don't be upset that they made it, even if your born into it you need to be smart enough to keep it, plenty of fortunes disappear after the idiot son takes over the business. Don't blame him for making it, blame the government for a poorly made deal if that occured. Your right we would all be billionares if it were easy but its not, they do keep many of us employed and if you feel like a slave working for them than do something for yourself and move on. Problem is we are so comfortable that we don't wish to take the risks and challenges, and then just bugger about the ones that did and made it.

 

Sorry just my rant for the day.

 

 

 

...bout sums it up for me.

[camillj]

EVERYONE THAT PAY TAXES pays for crown land!

 

That is completely true .. while it is still crown land ... BUT when the government decides to sell it (whether or not we agree it is a good idea)... and collects what it deems to be fair price for it ... and then starts charging the owner property taxes on it .. then everyone else gets the benefit of those tax dollars ... in exchange for giving up enjoyment of that land - otherwise why would anyone buy anything from anyone (especially the government) ?

[Grimace]

That is completely true .. while it is still crown land ... BUT when the government decides to sell it (whether or not we agree it is a good idea)... and collects what it deems to be fair price for it ... and then starts charging the owner property taxes on it .. then everyone else gets the benefit of those tax dollars ... in exchange for giving up enjoyment of that land - otherwise why would anyone buy anything from anyone (especially the government) ?

 

 

Correct. But again, we are not talking about his land, we are talking about the public road and the public lake.

 

If my neighbours and I got together and blocked off the public road going through our properties we would be a committing a crime.

 

If I owned the properties on both sides of my road and decided the road was mine and blocked it off, would you consider that a reasonable action?

[camillj]

Not at all Grimace ... and I apologize if I wasnt clear ... I wasn't speaking to the issue of the 'billionaire' who apparantly was told by the authorities that he had the right to block the road (which I can only assume means he owns or has exclusive rights to it) ... I was responding to ZWB's comment where he quoted my original post.

 

I know first hand that there is often a lot more going on than the observers assumptions might be aware of ...we have had similar issues in our access road and parking area (which our club built on our own private property - and which we maintain with our own money (despite also contributing annually to the 'public access road maintenance' - We keep our private access road gated (and many might have assumed it was once public because before we upgraded the road (and built a proper parking area and repaired/replaced culverts) we never did have a gate - but we do now - mostly to ensure we have somewhere to park legally and to prevent the abuse (trash/garbage, tree cutting for fires etc) by people who have nothing invested in the area ... this in no way prevents access to the lake since there IS another public road controlled/maintained by the province... but it is about 40 minutes shorter 4 X 4 drive from the main road so some people think they have the right to vandalize our gate and trespass across and park on our private property to fish the lake).

 

We are not rich, we are not arrogant, we do not believe we OWN the lake or the fish in it ... but we do own the land and we have put a great deal of energy and money and thought into our improvements - all with government approval ... so if you see a gate across a road I suggest it would be more appropriate to call the township ... find out who owns the land and ASK them NICELY for permission to cross their property ... and respect their decision if their answer is no ... who knows, you might even make a new friend.

[mike rousseau]

there is a gated creek in my area...

 

guy owns property on both sides and put up a gate to keep other boats out...

 

he even tried to swamp my canoe when i was younger for going in "his" creek...before the gate was in place...

 

 

we have problems here in our own province.... why dont you worry about the issues around here and leave BC residents fight their own battles....

[Grimace]

We seem to be discussing two different things. I am talking about the guy dumping trees on a public road going to a public lake.

 

You are discussing something far different. You brought your situation into this conversation (which I did not address) to make a point. We have now established and agreed that there are differences between your situation and the situation in B.C. Your drive is private. You have not even remotely blocked off public access to the lake.

 

So, with those loose knots tied up, do you think this man is within his right to block a public road going to a public lake because he owns the land around them? And if so, do you believe my neighbours and I should have the same right to dump tree stumps across the public road that goes between our properties?

 

What I guess I am asking is this, now that you look at the big differences in the two situations, do you feel differently about the topic?

[Grimace]

if i had the money to buy up all the land surrounding a lake...then was given permission to stock this lake... and did so with my money... id be doing everything in my power to keep people off the lake...

 

 

this guy is living what a lot of us dream about... having your own lake to do whatever you want with...

 

and hes the bad guy for not making it accessible to the public?...even after the provincial government said the ranch has the right to put a gate and block access...

 

come on...

 

let him have his piece of paradise...

 

there is a gated creek in my area...

 

guy owns property on both sides and put up a gate to keep other boats out...

 

he even tried to swamp my canoe when i was younger for going in "his" creek...before the gate was in place...

 

 

You have not stated if the access "Guy" is blocking is his own or public. I am assuming public if you are bringing it up. If so revert to your first post. If it is in fact private, revert back to your first post. Once you figure out where you stand get back to us....

[camillj]

Thanks for acknowledging the validity of my perspective on this discussion in the context of my own experiences.

 

To answer your question (as best I can) - no I do not believe anyone should be allowed to interfere with public property for their own benefit.

 

BUT - I cannot presume to have enough information about the facts of that persons specific rights or actions or to know whether what he did was wrong - I would be surprised however that the town (government) would say he is within his rights if he was really interefering with public access to public property. And it was be a very dangerous precedent to condone anyone taking vandalous action based on their own suppositions.

 

Is it not possible that an invalid assumption has led us all down the garden path ?

 

The point of describing my situation was to show that sometimes things aren't what they appear (especially when for whatever reason you wish that they were).

[Grimace]

Indeed. Good points. I am interested to see where this goes. There is not enough information in this article.

 

The more I think of it the more questions I have, from how it is managed to the legalities of the sale in the first place.

[mike rousseau]

You have not stated if the access "Guy" is blocking is his own or public. I am assuming public if you are bringing it up. If so revert to your first post. If it is in fact private, revert back to your first post. Once you figure out where you stand get back to us....

 

 

 

alright....

 

the "GUY" owns property on both sides of the creek and put a gate across the water blocking the "public" from entering the creek...

 

once the gate was put in i stayed away...its just a creek and i dont have the ambition to get into a legal battle with the "guy" over him wanting a swampy creek to himself... i have more important things to do with my time..."let him have it"

 

what i was trying to say is who cares what the heck is going on in BC... we have enough issues like this going on in ontario to bicker about...

 

this will probably never effect any of you directly...

 

worry about your own backyard...

 

 

thats as clear as i can make it for you Grimace... is that acceptable for you? or do you have any more questions?