Change at the top for the Leafs

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

Here's what I don't understand Leaf Nation...

 

A hastily built team, an expedited rebuild if you will was undertaken at the cost of draft picks. Burke has filled in the holes between kessel and a stellar defense with free agent signings.

 

When a Burke built team flounders after he promises the world in 2 seasons, you guys blame the coach. Are you guys REALLY that smitten by Burke that he doesn't take at least as much blame as Wilson? I mean, he only coaches what he was given... and he's been given a shell of a hockey team!

[GBW]

Are you guys REALLY that smitten by Burke that he doesn't take at least as much blame as Wilson? I mean, he only coaches what he was given... and he's been given a shell of a hockey team!

well put.

[jjcanoe]

peddie is leading the search committee to find his replacement, was all over the net yesterday and in the papers today, Kessel 66 goals in a season and a half (not counting this year) boston got the #2 pick Alexandre Daigle (oops my out loud voice again)6th liner in Boston (2 centers out with injuries and he's still on the 4th line) what a steal!

[jediangler]

peddie is leading the search committee to find his replacement, was all over the net yesterday and in the papers today, Kessel 66 goals in a season and a half (not counting this year) boston got the #2 pick Alexandre Daigle (oops my out loud voice again)6th liner in Boston (2 centers out with injuries and he's still on the 4th line) what a steal!

That steal has 6 points to Ke$$el's 9 and he hasn't turned 19 yet. How many games does Ke$$el have to go without a point before Leaf fans realize they got fleeced on that deal. Burke is trying to win a cup...for his hometown team.

[chris.brock]

I think the Leafs have played pretty good even though they can't win games, they don't seem to get the bounces lately and their goaltending is weak though. I think you have to go to the bottom and draft well for a few years before you can rise to the top, like Pittsburgh, Chicago, the leafs seem to trade draft picks in hoping for instant sucess.

[jbailey]

I am 16 and ive been watching the leafs ever since i can remember, watching their games is like a religion to me and no matter how poor they are playing i will always bleed blue and white, they will always be my team and i will always support them no matter what. GO LEAFS GO! through thick and thin

 

should cheer for the bulldogs instead!

[Guest Johnny Bass]

Here's what I don't understand Leaf Nation...

 

A hastily built team, an expedited rebuild if you will was undertaken at the cost of draft picks. Burke has filled in the holes between kessel and a stellar defense with free agent signings.

 

When a Burke built team flounders after he promises the world in 2 seasons, you guys blame the coach. Are you guys REALLY that smitten by Burke that he doesn't take at least as much blame as Wilson? I mean, he only coaches what he was given... and he's been given a shell of a hockey team!

 

I blame Burke too. But more Wilson. If I was coach of the Leafs, even with Burke in charge? I would have a better team. People talk about them being in the Olympics, but when you have that many great players on the ice? It has very little to do with coaching. Pat Quinn won a gold medal for Canada for heaven's sake!lol

 

The Phaneuf trade is a bomb but I like the Kessel trade. We have a decent defence, Schenn, Komisarek, Lebda, Beauchemin. Our goaltenders both have potential and we have another one if I'm not mistaken in reserve.

 

Our forwards are not superstars but they are ok. What we are missing is a top line and some chemistry. That's the coaches job for the Chemistry.

 

Burke still has the cheapest roster in the NHL and they are one of the few teams that are not over their cap and can afford a free agent. If we can get a high scoring free agent and trade Kaberle for another decent forward, we will have a good team.

[Headhunter]

The Leaf's need for a bona fide top line centre has been going on for so long, it's actually tunring into a joke!

Does anyone else remember a guy named Sundin and how we constantly heard about how difficult it was to find a centre who could play with him...

The more things change, the more they stay the same!

HH

[Jer]

The Leaf's need for a bona fide top line centre has been going on for so long, it's actually tunring into a joke!

Does anyone else remember a guy named Sundin and how we constantly heard about how difficult it was to find a centre who could play with him...

The more things change, the more they stay the same!

HH

 

 

 

Well Sundin was a centre, back then we needed a winger once Mogilny was gone.

[Grimace]

Sundin was a centre. The question was who they could get to play on his wing.

[Grimace]

Renberg had his best season on the legion of boom line in Philadelphia with Lindros and LeClair. He was washed up when he came here. Got his led caught up in the propeller of his boat at his cottage and missed half of a season.

[craigdritchie]

You Loaf fans really do make me laugh.

 

You blame various players. You blame Wilson. You blame Burke. You blame Peddie. You blame anyone and everyone, except the true source of the problem --> LOAF FANS.

 

Yes, Loaf fans are the problem. They fanatically support the team regardless of how badly is does. They buy Loaf hats, and they buy Loaf jerseys, and they buy Loaf license plate holders, and they drive all over town with those idiotic Loaf flags clamped in their car windows. This year's Sears holiday catalogue has pages of Loaf stuff in it, and as always, they will sell it all.

 

The Loafs make record profits every year because Loaf fans continue to support the team, sell out the ACC every night, and buy tons of its crappy merchandise REGARDLESS OF HOW BADLY THEY SUCK. So what is the incentive for the Loaf owners (i.e. Teacher's Pension Fund, etc) to change anything and invest in building a better team? That would risk profits, and as long as they're making maximum profits with a crap team, they won't change a thing.

 

You want a better team? Stop giving them your money. Send them a message that it's time to deliver.

 

But Loaf fans will never do that. They love their little car flags. And so the Loafs will remain in the basement forever.

 

End of story.

[jimmer]

You Loaf fans really do make me laugh.

 

You blame various players. You blame Wilson. You blame Burke. You blame Peddie. You blame anyone and everyone, except the true source of the problem --> LOAF FANS.

 

Yes, Loaf fans are the problem. They fanatically support the team regardless of how badly is does. They buy Loaf hats, and they buy Loaf jerseys, and they buy Loaf license plate holders, and they drive all over town with those idiotic Loaf flags clamped in their car windows. This year's Sears holiday catalogue has pages of Loaf stuff in it, and as always, they will sell it all.

 

The Loafs make record profits every year because Loaf fans continue to support the team, sell out the ACC every night, and buy tons of its crappy merchandise REGARDLESS OF HOW BADLY THEY SUCK. So what is the incentive for the Loaf owners (i.e. Teacher's Pension Fund, etc) to change anything and invest in building a better team? That would risk profits, and as long as they're making maximum profits with a crap team, they won't change a thing.

 

You want a better team? Stop giving them your money. Send them a message that it's time to deliver.

 

But Loaf fans will never do that. They love their little car flags. And so the Loafs will remain in the basement forever.

 

End of story.

As said earlier, I have been a die hard fan as far back as I can remember, falling asleep on the floor during the sixties watching the games in black and white. I do not buy any of their memorabilia or attend games (crazy to pay that kind of money for a couple of hours); I watch them on the TV. I would love to see the place empty and see what results from it, but unfortunately there are way too many people with too much money for that to ever happen.

So, we have to blame someone!

[jimmer]

Here's what I don't understand Leaf Nation...

 

A hastily built team, an expedited rebuild if you will was undertaken at the cost of draft picks. Burke has filled in the holes between kessel and a stellar defense with free agent signings.

 

When a Burke built team flounders after he promises the world in 2 seasons, you guys blame the coach. Are you guys REALLY that smitten by Burke that he doesn't take at least as much blame as Wilson? I mean, he only coaches what he was given... and he's been given a shell of a hockey team!

Bringing in Burke was a mistake then and is still a mistake. Never liked the way the guy ran a team.

[Chance]

You Loaf fans really do make me laugh.

 

You blame various players. You blame Wilson. You blame Burke. You blame Peddie. You blame anyone and everyone, except the true source of the problem --> LOAF FANS.

 

Yes, Loaf fans are the problem. They fanatically support the team regardless of how badly is does. They buy Loaf hats, and they buy Loaf jerseys, and they buy Loaf license plate holders, and they drive all over town with those idiotic Loaf flags clamped in their car windows. This year's Sears holiday catalogue has pages of Loaf stuff in it, and as always, they will sell it all.

 

The Loafs make record profits every year because Loaf fans continue to support the team, sell out the ACC every night, and buy tons of its crappy merchandise REGARDLESS OF HOW BADLY THEY SUCK. So what is the incentive for the Loaf owners (i.e. Teacher's Pension Fund, etc) to change anything and invest in building a better team? That would risk profits, and as long as they're making maximum profits with a crap team, they won't change a thing.

 

You want a better team? Stop giving them your money. Send them a message that it's time to deliver.

 

But Loaf fans will never do that. They love their little car flags. And so the Loafs will remain in the basement forever.

 

End of story.

 

You cant possibly believe that...can you ??If the seats sat empty you somehow believe they would magically put a better team on the ice? They would mysteriously draft great players?Do you have any idea what a single home playoff game is worth?More games more money.A cup win for Toronto would be worth millions in revenue,mechandise etc...Yet you believe they are willing to overlook all that because we buy flags?

If that were the actual case you would have a team full of ECHL players making league minimum would you not?You could fill the rink and save millions in salaries.Buuuuuuut you dont,you have high paid players not living up to expectations most nights.You have those at the top wanting more and more money and a GM trying to produce.

Point fingers where you like but NHL hockey is a business and ALL teams are run as such.If filling seats and selling flags was the ultimate business plan in the sports world do you not think other pro teams would of caught on by now?Do you think the other NHL board members are at this minute firing everyone with the exception of ushers and flag makers.

Sounds great blaming the fans and that story has been around for years but when you really look at it it doesnt make for a strong business plan now does it?

[blaque]

We'll let you know how this works down here in Buffalo. The Bills game this sunday will be blacked out locally (no TV coverage) because we could not sell out the stadium. Main reason for this lack of ticket sales..........were 0-8. Fans wont waste money on a ticket to go watch this team with no hope of achieving anything. No wins=less support. We'll see how this pans out down here and let you guys know if you should follow suit.

[Mike Pike]

So what is the incentive for the Loaf owners (i.e. Teacher's Pension Fund, etc) to change anything and invest in building a better team? That would risk profits, and as long as they're making maximum profits with a crap team, they won't change a thing.

All teams invest about the same now, fyi. Salary Cap, remember?

[GBW]

that's a big fish!

[Dutchy]

I blame the media for alot of this. They raise expectations of the team to stupid levels when everyone KNOWS it is not that good a team. They are not even close to competing and if by some miracle they pulled it together and scraped 8th place, they would be one and done, probably by a sweep. The east is crap, but the top 3 or 4 teams are way better than the other 11 or 12 teams.

 

Media, from what I understand, are far too negative about the players. That is quite a de-motivator. Think about it. If you are constantly criticized in your job, most people eventually lose interest and don't see the point in trying. Salary is irrelevant. These guys earn so much it is probably not even a factor in their thinking on a day to day basis. If you keep telling someone they suck, eventually they will believe it too. Its a self-fufiling prophecy. Funny how when players leave this atmosphere they go on fire, Stempniak springs to mind last year with Phoenix. TO is a poisonous atmosphere for these guys.

 

Just my .02 cents.

[blarg]

You cant possibly believe that...can you ??If the seats sat empty you somehow believe they would magically put a better team on the ice? They would mysteriously draft great players?Do you have any idea what a single home playoff game is worth?More games more money.A cup win for Toronto would be worth millions in revenue,mechandise etc...Yet you believe they are willing to overlook all that because we buy flags?

If that were the actual case you would have a team full of ECHL players making league minimum would you not?You could fill the rink and save millions in salaries.Buuuuuuut you dont,you have high paid players not living up to expectations most nights.You have those at the top wanting more and more money and a GM trying to produce.

Point fingers where you like but NHL hockey is a business and ALL teams are run as such.If filling seats and selling flags was the ultimate business plan in the sports world do you not think other pro teams would of caught on by now?Do you think the other NHL board members are at this minute firing everyone with the exception of ushers and flag makers.

Sounds great blaming the fans and that story has been around for years but when you really look at it it doesnt make for a strong business plan now does it?

 

You are missing the point, the organization is afraid to let the team be terrible (more so) for a few years, a terrible team will likely get a number of high draft picks which could in time become members of a good team. Instead they continually attempt and fail to rebuild without draft picks in an effort to give fans something to hold on to thus keeping the building full in hopes that this year will be better than last. If you just allow yourselves to stay in the basement while not giving away assets for ex. Kessel, then in 5 years you might have something, but the investors are concerned that a prolonged period of no hope, no chance to make the playoffs would hurt margins so they don't allow it to happen knowing full well that leaf fans are so dedicated they will keep coming as long as there is any chance. Maybe that doesn't make any sense, maybe it isn't true, but what other possible explanation could there be for the wealthiest team in the NHL to have not won or hardly done anything in the playoffs for more than 40 years? Look at how this team has been put together in recent history, notice how it is the same pattern, the same type of rebuilding under every gm?

[Grimace]

Well at least Vancouver should be an easy win. :-)

[craigdritchie]

Chance:

 

Ah my friend, if only it were all so simple! The one and only goal for Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment is to earn the maximum profit for their shareholders while minimizing capital risk. That the team would earn more money by playing post-season games is obvious. But what you don’t grasp is that the investment required to attain that represents a level of risk those investors are not prepared to take. Why accept an elevated level of risk when you’re already making record profits right now?

 

You’re right - the NHL is a business, and the goal of any business plan is to earn maximum profit at minimal risk. Spending money to build a team on the hope that they might win and bring you a big payback is not a valid business plan – it’s a gamble, and no different than sending your shareholders off to Casino Rama for the night.

 

Blaque:

 

We have the same scenario here with the Blue Jays. No wins = no fan support. But Loaf fans are different, somehow. They fanatically and blindly support even the worst teams. It’s like they’re possessed by Satan or something. Can’t explain it. They totally defy logic and common sense.

 

Mike Pike:

 

I’m not talking about salaries for current roster players, but investing throughout the organization to develop talent at all levels. With the salary cap, the farm system has become more important than ever, and its one place the Loafs have neglected for decades.

 

Blarg:

 

Thanks for the support!

 

 

 

Bottom line: as long as Loaf fans keep giving these bozos all their money, the ownership won't change a thing. Why should they?

Edited November 12, 2010 by Craig_Ritchie

[Mike Pike]

I’m not talking about salaries for current roster players, but investing throughout the organization to develop talent at all levels. With the salary cap, the farm system has become more important than ever, and its one place the Loafs have neglected for decades.

Forgive me, but other than salaries, how much is the current version of the Leafs ownership spending compared to the rest of the teams in the NHL?

 

Seriously, it's easy to say they don't spend like other teams, but harder to back it up with facts. So, what are the figures?

[Chance]

Chance:

 

Ah my friend, if only it were all so simple! The one and only goal for Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment is to earn the maximum profit for their shareholders while minimizing capital risk. That the team would earn more money by playing post-season games is obvious. But what you don’t grasp is that the investment required to attain that represents a level of risk those investors are not prepared to take. Why accept an elevated level of risk when you’re already making record profits right now?

 

You’re right - the NHL is a business, and the goal of any business plan is to earn maximum profit at minimal risk. Spending money to build a team on the hope that they might win and bring you a big payback is not a valid business plan – it’s a gamble, and no different than sending your shareholders off to Casino Rama for the night.

 

Blaque:

 

We have the same scenario here with the Blue Jays. No wins = no fan support. But Loaf fans are different, somehow. They fanatically and blindly support even the worst teams. It’s like they’re possessed by Satan or something. Can’t explain it. They totally defy logic and common sense.

 

Mike Pike:

 

I’m not talking about salaries for current roster players, but investing throughout the organization to develop talent at all levels. With the salary cap, the farm system has become more important than ever, and its one place the Loafs have neglected for decades.

 

Blarg:

 

Thanks for the support!

 

 

 

Bottom line: as long as Loaf fans keep giving these bozos all their money, the ownership won't change a thing. Why should they?

 

I would be very interested to see some factual numbers pointing out how the Leafs are not investing in the team.Sure maximum return minimum risk,sounds awesome but isnt that your original point.No matter what they put on the ice ( this would represent the minimum financial risk you speak of) and the mindless leaf fans would still fill the rink(this represents the maximum return you speak of).Last I looked Toronto was 5th in league spending and planning on spending more,doesn't fit with the minimum risk maximum return theory.

My guess is if your theory is true and just then I highly doubt it would be a secret only discussed on fishing boards.Everyone in the hockley world would be privy to this...no??So in fact all the players Toronto have signed or will sign must be content with the fact they are just there to bring home the cash and put in time.You actually believe every last player there is ONLY in it for the money and do not care about a cup run??

[Chance]

You are missing the point, the organization is afraid to let the team be terrible (more so) for a few years, a terrible team will likely get a number of high draft picks which could in time become members of a good team. Instead they continually attempt and fail to rebuild without draft picks in an effort to give fans something to hold on to thus keeping the building full in hopes that this year will be better than last. If you just allow yourselves to stay in the basement while not giving away assets for ex. Kessel, then in 5 years you might have something, but the investors are concerned that a prolonged period of no hope, no chance to make the playoffs would hurt margins so they don't allow it to happen knowing full well that leaf fans are so dedicated they will keep coming as long as there is any chance. Maybe that doesn't make any sense, maybe it isn't true, but what other possible explanation could there be for the wealthiest team in the NHL to have not won or hardly done anything in the playoffs for more than 40 years? Look at how this team has been put together in recent history, notice how it is the same pattern, the same type of rebuilding under every gm?

 

 

I dont think I am as I understand his point completely.I also understand your point and do agree somewhat.In the pre cap days there was no need for the leafs to concern themselves with draft picks.Silly yes but they had cash to spend instead.Having a few down years,drafting correctly,building,making a cup run and then selling off all your high priced talent after the cup seems to be the norm.The Leafs in the past have decided to do it differently and it hasn't panned out...I agree.To say that if the seats were empty this would all change is dilusional at best.

Everyone seems to point to the kessel trade as the marker for going back to the old ways.They miss the fact that he is still VERY young and IS a proven commodity of the highest quality.I know I know people will argue and say what has he done this year but he has done it in the past and will in the future.They also have kadri,schenn,gunnarson and many of their other picks in waiting.If you remember correctly Burke has tried two years in a row to trade up in the draft.Not exactly signs of a team that has the old mentality of draft schmaft.He also cleared out the old team and brought in younger players.

Burke wanted kessel at all costs and was willing to give up kaberle at the draft.Now ask yourself this,if burke knew this theory of minimum risk maximum return do you really think he would of given up what he did for kessel?

Everyone and his brother will tell you burke is one arrogant dude,a guy that like to be the king of the show.Does this sound lie a guy who would step into the lead role knowing its all about the cash and not about the cup?

My point in all this is the Leafs are a disfunctional organization we all know this.I think they are on the right road and the kessel trade is not a sign all is going to hell in a hand basket.