Knotless line /leader joints

[Garry2Rs]

What if you could fish with braided line, and attach a leader of mono or Fluoro without a knot?

Would it look something like this?

 

 

Supposing that you tied a nail knot on top of the splice for safety's sake, could it still be smaller than any line to line knot?

 

 

Suppose that you could make a loop at the end of your line...without a knot

 

 

Now if you also made a knotless leader, that also had a loop on the rod end,

could you join them together loop-to-loop for quick changes out on the water?

 

 

What if under tension the connection almost disappeared?

 

What if after a break-off etc. your line could have a new section spliced on?

Now what if all of these these connections were at 100% line strength?

 

Is this just science-fiction or could it really be the next "Big Thing"

[BillM]

This thread is lacking details.

[solopaddler]

Pretty slick Garry.

 

I'm looking forward to trying these for my braid-fluoro connection this year:

 

http://www.aquateko.com/

[Syn]

This reminds me of the you tube video of a guy using hollow braid. He was putting the line between 2 vise like holders. Thought it was something to do with flyfishing. IS the hollow braid really expensive? IIRC he explained in the video that the flouro was held by the braid the same way a finger trap works.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Syn

[Roy]

yeah, PowerPro Hollow ace....nice concept.

[Ben_Daniels]

That'd be awesome if they could figure it out, I sure cant see how they would.

 

Welcome back Garry

 

-Ben

[GoneFishin]

Solo if those were snap swivels I would be all over them lol. Still might pick up a pack of them.

I do like the thought of being able to splice lines together any where on your spool without knots but I don't seem to have much of a problem with that using braid

[Garry2Rs]

I saw the video too, but Blackwater wants $82.00 for 100 yards of 50# test!!!

What you see here was done without the jig that was used in the video.

That jig is really for applying the "serve."

That's a winding that is put on the joint of heavy leaders.

It's like the winding on a bowstring in the area where the arrow is nocked.

 

Your correct in saying that the leader is held in place by the finger trap action of the braid.

The knot or the serve are just insurance against anything slipping in the millisecond before the two lines draw tight...IE... when bait fishing. With tuna etc. there is also a concern that the fluoro might stretch and become smaller in diameter...I hope I catch one big enough to do that...HAHAHA!

 

In the past only hollow lines above about 80 pound test could be used this way.

Saltwater guys have done this going back to braided Dacron line.

But over in fresh water, no one seemed to be interested

Maybe because there were no small lines.

Plus there were no small tools, because there were no small lines....grin.

 

Power Pro is now releasing a new line called Hollow Ace in 40, 60, 80, 100, 130 and 200# test.

I paid US$100.00 to obtain one of the first 500 yard spools of 40 pound test from a dealer in San Diego.

That's $25.00 for 125 yards, so it's a bit more than the old stuff.

The new line is 16 strands and very silky and was very easy to work with.

In the pictures, it's the yellow line.

The white line is hollow 60# Tuff Line, the blue/green is 60# Jerry Brown Hollow One Line.

 

In truth I paid the price to get a 40 pound line that I could, form knotless loops in and that I could thread a leader into.

This new hollow Power Pro is the first 40# that you can thread. I did get a leader in the 60# JB but it was hard work.

 

I had to buy a few tools, a hollow needle to insert the leader and a reverse latch needle, to form the loops, they were only about $18.00 each.

The rest I did with my fingers.

 

I now have placed an order for musky weight line and 130 lb fluoro.

 

Don't forget these lines are spliceable.

When the reel get's low, or if you have a chunk left over, you can join pieces seamlessly!

No more spools with pieces that are too short too use, but too good to throw away!!! HAHAHA!

[solopaddler]

The concept isn't new. Myself and most fly fishermen have been "inchwoming" various leaders and loop to loop connectors onto the end of the fly line for years.

I usually put a small piece of heat shrink tubing at the very end of the connection to hold it in place.

 

Still I absolutely will not use these pressure fit connections for big fish. I've learned the hard way over the years they have a tendency to fail.

[lew]

Surprised to see you posting here again Garry, it's only been a couple weeks since you made a big thing about nobody replying to a couple of your posts and said you were leaving OFC permanently because you weren't getting enough attention

[cheaptackle]

Great report as always Garry! I'll be watching for when they do (if they do) come up with something in the lighter weight classes.

Glad to see you back!

 

Michael

[JohnF]

Jeez! Technology is relentless. I'm the kind who would want to insert the smaller line far enuf up inside the hollow that I could tie a safety knot in the whole mess.

 

JF

[TJQ]

Nice post Garry, nice to see you back.

[NAW]

Welcome Back

 

That's very "bigredfisher-esk" of you..

 

Yes.. I just made up a word.

[lookinforwalleye]

Surprised to see you posting here again Garry, it's only been a couple weeks since you made a big thing about nobody replying to a couple of your posts and said you were leaving OFC permanently because you weren't getting enough attention

 

 

LOL!! Tough to stay away!

 

Lot of replies please.

[JohnF]

LOL!! Tough to stay away!

 

Lot of replies please.

 

Lighten up guys. We put up with buckets of ranting from all kinds of members with lots less to offer than Garry. Frankly I'd rather read Garry's posts than most of theirs. If we're going to insult members let's concentrate on the ones who contribute nothing but griping.

 

End of rant.

 

JF

[lookinforwalleye]

Lighten up guys. We put up with buckets of ranting from all kinds of members with lots less to offer than Garry. Frankly I'd rather read Garry's posts than most of theirs. If we're going to insult members let's concentrate on the ones who contribute nothing but griping.

 

End of rant.

 

JF

 

If you consider my reply an insult then you should....never mind I think I will lighten up!!

[Roy]

Well I'm just glad they're both back.

 

Now about this knotless stuff.

[JohnF]

Well I'm just glad they're both back.

 

Now about this knotless stuff.

 

Well, I'll believe it when I see it, which btw, hopefully will be shortly after 2r's gets back to the frozen north and figgers out where the crappy are hiding. Mebbe I can con him outa some of that and I'll try it out on little bitty lightweight fishies.

 

I still remember when he was introducing me to joys of frogging and I launched a poor greedy little rock bass about 40' thru the air on a muskie sized hookset. I hadn't learned the part yet about wait a second before you set the hook when frogging slop. Poor little guy was so small the frog's feet were sticking outa his butt. The rock bass was just kinda hanging there looking up at me in shock like "what the hell just happened there?"

 

JF

[buckster]

Surprised to see you posting here again Garry, it's only been a couple weeks since you made a big thing about nobody replying to a couple of your posts and said you were leaving OFC permanently because you weren't getting enough attention

 

 

I was thinking the same...

[JPD]

Interesting post garry2rs, I have seen this before but never thought it to be practical for our applications plus it seemed like a bunch of work with the needles and everything. Can you do this on a boat or on the water for that matter? if so what kind of time are you looking at because I would love nothing more than to eliminate knots.

 

Also, what's the smallest lb test braid you can do this with?

[Garry2Rs]

Hi JP.

At this time it appears that 40# Hollow Ace is the lightest line that can be looped and threaded.

There are other brands of hollow 40#, but they are too tight inside to get the smallest available needle through them.

 

DaHo, is one of the major manufactures of the hardware. They made some special ordered extra small needles that don't appear on there website or price list and that's what I am using.

 

With Hollow Ace I can thread a fluoro leader 4+ feet into the running line in a couple of minutes, perhaps less when I get my chops down...grin. However, although this could be done on the water, but it isn't something I picture myself doing in the boat.

 

The salt water guys have solved all these problens for us. We should probably avoid trying to reinvent the wheel. They say to use knotless loop-to-loop connections. That way you can carry spare leaders and, when necessary, do a quick change.

 

I understand that most people have a loop turned in their line by a bait shop or Charter service etc. They then purchase ready made leaders.

 

When I heard loop-to-loop all I could picture was two bulky loops of line banging their way through the guides. Brett, at Westcoast Topshots sent me the white leader in my pictures. He said I needed to try them before I "cast them aside"...pun intended...grin.

 

He was right! These loops are knotless, the line connection is so small that it flies out of the guides without you even feeling it.

 

After trying the sample "wind-on" leader, which was a relatively heavy 60# braid with a 30# fluoro working end, I ordered additional materials and tools to make some of my own in 40 to 15 pound test and in 150 to 130 pound Musky weight. I will continue to water test the straight "topshot" leaders, but suspect that I will be fishing loop-to-loop wind-on's this Summer.

 

As far as minimum leader weights go, Brett told me that he had put 12 pound fluoro inside his samples of 40# Hollow Ace. I don't have any 12# on hand, but even my 15 pound has to be bent into a zig-zag to create enough friction to keep it from slipping out of the threading needle.

 

I might try lighter leaders in the future, but if fluoro is invisible underwater anyway, I am just as happy with 15 pound test for now.

Garry2rs

[JPD]

So I guess for our applications aside from flipping heavy cover we will not be able to use this? I am thinking along the line of 10-20 lb braid for smallmouth dragging and jerkbaits with 12-14lb fluoro leaders at .012" and .013" diameters.

 

Mind you it would be nice to thread some 25 lb fluoro leader into 65 braid... is that even possible or are the diameters not within reach of each other since the 25 lb fluoro is .019"?

 

And you really have to thread 4-6 feet of leader into the braid? I can't stand threading a draw string back through my hoodie! Can you imagine threading braid?

[Garry2Rs]

First of all you can only do these tricks with hollow core braid, so there is no 10 or 20 pound lines.

So far the lightest is 40 pound test and that has only started hitting the store shelves this month.

 

Second the smallest needles needed to make the splices, loops and insertions is called a #20, this indicates that it's inside diameter is about the size of average 20 pound test mono. it is not a production model yet, but should be soon.

 

Let me give you a feel for this,...When I was putting 15# Seaguar .013 into the needle, it was so loose that I had to put hard crimps in the line to create enough friction to keep the line from being pulled out as it traveled inside the braid.

 

However if I cut the fluoro with dull scissors, I had to dress the end, to remove the burr before I could get it into the needle next time. On these small lines the tolerances are tight!

 

This is what I know about other line sizes so far:

60 pound hollow braid works best with 30 pound fluoro or mono.

80 pound works with 50 pound and 150 pound braid works with 130 mono or fluoro.

 

Threading needles are readily available with ID's of .026, .032, .038, .0042, .047, .053 and .060, which correspond to 50, 60, 80, 100, 130, 150 and 200 pound test leader material. There are over size needles for up to 500 pound test mono.

 

As far as the drudgery of making the loops and leaders, I guess that's why most guys use loop-to-loop and buy there leaders ready made. Saltwater tackle shops sell generic ones, but there are lots of small custom tiers who will build whatever you want...Google Wind-on Leaders.

 

How far the lines need to over lap ...

I was told 3 feet was plenty of overlap.

I went four because once you're started it's easy.

 

On a splice of two braided lines in the 130 -150 pound class, they said in a video that two feet was probably okay, but three feet in each direction was better and someone might go four feet if they were ultra conservative.

 

It's nice to think about tiny braids with knotless leaders but if someone did make a 20# hollow braid, think how small the OD of the threading needle would be. The ID would be so small you would need the eyes of an eagle to thread it!!!

 

If I let myself daydream...

A more likely scenario would be end loops woven into 15 or 20 pound lines during production.

Then the line company could sell us factory built loop-to-loop leaders with the fluoro already woven in. However that is all real science fiction for now.

 

Of coarse if KVD won next years Classic using a prototype, they would be in Bass Pro Shop by Xmas!!!

HAHAHA!

Edited March 18, 2010 by garry2rs

[solopaddler]

A more likely scenario would be end loops woven into 15 or 20 pound lines during production.

Then the line company could sell us factory built loop-to-loop leaders with the fluoro already woven in. However that is all real science fiction for now.

 

Most high end fly lines have an end loop incorporated into them. Those that don't most guys will nail knot a heavy piece of mono with a loop on the end to achieve the same thing.

Many fly leaders already have a loop in the end for a loop-loop connection. Those that don't, well it takes seconds to tie one.

 

The loop-loop connection is favoured by flyfishermen because it allows for quick change.

Bear in mind because fly rods are much longer this connection is almost never reeled into the guides.

 

It would be an incredibly easy thing to incorporate a permanent loop at the end of your braid.

Tying a loop in your fluoro leader as mentioned is easy and takes seconds.

 

Having been familiar with this type of connection for years I would never consider it for anything besides flyfishing.

It's simply not streamlined or small enough. It wouldn't be finesse enough for my liking and wouldn't reel through the guides easily.

 

If I'm concerned about the ability to change leaders on my braid I'll use a microscopically small black ant barrel swivel. The same ones I use for steelheading.

Been doing that for years. It works great and is very subtle and stealthy. The only drawback being I don't like to reel the swivel, small as it may be, through my guides.

 

The link to the fluoro swivels which I posted earlier should be looked at again.

They allow for quick change plus won't be as hard on the guides if you're running a long lead.

I honestly don't see how you can improve on this:

 

http://www.aquateko.com/