WHO OWNS THE WATER??

[holdfast]

Snag

I hope you find the right answer to this and tell us. Ive always had a problem with such issues and always backed out as I am not sure who is right. But I really do believe while hiking, camping, fishing, Ive been lied to on what rights I don't have. I love exploring and Ive always wondered about those Pvt property signs in the middle of no where but close to a cabin or honey hole. Good thread

[dsn]

Thats a bummer snag. Too bad I wasn't there I would have pulled out the digital

 

dsn

 

 

never know I might find yah out there.

 

But then again, we could meet up and fish simcoe. No hassels there.

Edited February 10, 2007 by dsn

[bucktail]

If I remember riprarian rights only extend to the ground under the water. This gives you the right to build on it assuming you pass an environmental assesment. You do not own the water.

[brkygetr]

may-haps I am wrong about this...but no drop of water on this planet...unless as said "land-locked" is "owned"..and in that case only the land around 'said' waterway is actually owned....I am not a lawyer but come on...you try to kick me off some fozen water which I assume is attached to a larger waterway (without slips).....what the heck...as the saying goes..take a long walk off a short peir....and keep smilin' and fishin'

 

Brkygetr

[fishindevil]

no one owns the water,ive been through this before,there is certain laws like owning the high water mark and the low water mark,but as long as you do not put out an anchor or touch the shore,you can navigate in a canoe or boat,they cannot stop you,unless its not a harbor as stated in this thread,they cannot stop you from ice fishing or tubing ,i would have said call the cops, screw them....

[Cookslav]

I have to agree with Lew,

 

One quick call will put your question on to an answer, and possibly avoid a crappy situation later.

[bigfish1965]

All waterways in Canada are property of the Federal government. All waters were federalized eons ago. In exceptionally rare cases, they may lease or hand over control of the waters, but this is generally done in areas where safety is a concern.

Any fool can tell you they own the water, but until they can prove it, they cannot make you leave. This happened to us once fishing the outskirts of a marina in a boat. An employee yelled at us to leave cause we were tresspassing. We told him to call the cops. He did. The police arrived much later on and we had a nice chat.

The guy then offered to dispose of some rocks in the area near where we were fishing. I informed the officer of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act pertaining to the harrassment of people hunting or fishing ( see http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statute...7f41_e.htm#BK15 ). We were allowed to carry on our day uninterruped.

IT is very common in this area for ice fishermen to fish between the over-winter docks. Just be respectful and know your rights.

[huntervasili]

Thats an awsome and now desktoped link Rick... Thanks loads, might use it myself sometime... I have one question myself as well though, Do the land owners around a river own the bottom of the river? so if you were wading in a river between private properties it would be on their land, therefore trespassing... Thanks for any help.

[Rattletrap2]

Kennyman,

Who you callin "donkey looking"? LOL....well okay, maybe Lew!

[bucktail]

If you are wading on a creek bed ..yes he owns that land in certain cases. Most of the time it comes down to "navigatible water ways" If you can pass thru on a canoe or other boat it is considerred a navigatible water way. Of it is you als can't put a fence aross it.

I think this goes back to the British NorthAmerica Act in the 1700 or 1800's.

Just say if I am wrong..I am tapping deep into my memory!

[John Bacon]

may-haps I am wrong about this...but no drop of water on this planet...unless as said "land-locked" is "owned"..and in that case only the land around 'said' waterway is actually owned....I am not a lawyer but come on...you try to kick me off some fozen water which I assume is attached to a larger waterway (without slips).....what the heck...as the saying goes..take a long walk off a short peir....and keep smilin' and fishin'

 

Brkygetr

 

 

The Long Point Company on Lake Erie definitely does own some of the water around the point. People do get charged for fishing those waters. So there are some cased where people can own the water.

 

Generally speaking though; any navigatable water is public. But, the marina could be one of the few exceptions though.

[GbayGiant]

If you are wading on a creek bed ..yes he owns that land in certain cases. Most of the time it comes down to "navigable water ways" If you can pass thru on a canoe or other boat it is considerred a navigatible water way. Of it is you als can't put a fence aross it.

I think this goes back to the British NorthAmerica Act in the 1700 or 1800's.

Just say if I am wrong..I am tapping deep into my memory!

 

This new owner of a piece of land on a river were I fished for years (1 of my favorite spots) went as far as to assign a security guard with 2 dogs on the weekends, he said people kept leaving garbage everywhere that's why he didn't want anyone fishing there (a load of Bull) I tried to introduce myself and explained to him I've fished this river before he even knew that the river existed and would be glad to pic up any garbage I see when fishing there (there was never any garbage anyway) He wouldn't even listen to anything I had to say, and was very rude and called the cops, the cops came (2 or 3 hours later) and let me stay (2 feet on the bank). The next day he had a fence up along the sides down to 2' away from the water on each side, so I floated in on one of those Bob Izumi fishing tubes and had a blast. I wonder how much he waisted on the security, and how much stress he inflicted upon himself. He has a sweet honey hole there, but I realese 99% of the bows and salmon I catch, I could see being upset if I owned it and people were keeping all the fish that came back every year to that same spot.

Edited February 10, 2007 by GbayGiant

[salpro]

Hey guys, First post for me, long time reader. Just thought I'd set you guys straight, on this topic. Land is owned by a owner. Water can not be owned! But the exception is one can obtain a water lot, being the land under the water, for such uses of dockage. They own it or lease it. Most bodies of water are owned by the crown, to the waters edge in a fresh water body of water. Saltwater being different, I won't get into that LOL. In the northern lakes the crown owns just past the waters edge, so you may come ashore in an emergency anywhere if u have boat problems. Hope that helps you guys out. Oh yaaa the marina thing lol If you can acess it from water, not trespassing over privet land I would say go for it. Better yet go ask at the marina, if they say no, ask to see there "deed to the water lot" If they will not produce it, you have every right to be there. Sorry for the long post lol Be good guys.

[huntervasili]

So in the case of a river/creek... Is all of the waterbed owned or a certain # of feet... Thanks

[Guest gbfisher]

Tadenac Bay on Georgian Bay is OWNED! It is well marked at the entrance with 2 very large signs stating...NO TRESPASSING! It's called the Tadenac Club. Its a very large bay. Part of it is called Tadenac lake. All accessible by boat. Unless you are an owner or a native, there is no exception for entry into the bay OR lake.

 

hope this helps...

[bigfish1965]

A creek that is not navigable may be owned by a private land owner. He may own the ground under the creek, but not the water itself. Lake front owners traditionally only own up to the high water point which is defined by the municipalties flood and fill lines.

[camillj]

Hate to be a party pooper ... but you know if we want to be taken as a serious group who arent just out to make trouble (which I expect there more than a few) we should probably take a step back and consider a few things :

 

I am gonna put the Porperty Owner's hat here for a second ... and think this through ...

 

1) even if you do trespass and break your leg (or worse yet drown) as you attempt to leave the ice from the Marina (and I would be surprised in most marina situations if people dont do exactly that) then there is a HUGE liability question .... and as an OWNER who already pays WAY too much insurance - I dont need to also stay awake at night worrying about how many millions I will get sued for when some SHMUK goes through the ice and blames me for not putting up enough barbed wire and signage to separate me from DARWIN

 

 

2) As a marina owner who spends WAYYYY to much money on security to make sure the millions of dollars of boats I have been etrusted with arent being pilfered by people hanging around within the marina pretending to be honest fishermen

 

 

much as it is a 'stereotype' - I would say the guys who are most likely to disrespect your property rights are also the ones most likely to steal from you (and please note I said disrespect - not dispute - so present company is excluded

 

 

anyhow .... just so when I ask NICELY to use someones private access ..... please dont ruin it for me by being a prick and assuming you have a god given right to something you may actually have no right to.

 

 

 

Just another perspective on another touchy subject

[cisco]

If the police get involved they will likely try to con you into leaving, since they usually take the easy way out and in this case would be leery of defending your rights against a marina who may get politicians involved to complain about them.

 

Since the police are the ones who will enforce any trespass bylaw regulations, I suggest you call the Municipal Office and ask about any bylaws pertaining to the marina waters.

 

Also, consider contacting the MP's Office for the area since the Feds will also have an account of any special rules at the marina. Put your tax dollars to use.

 

To me, it does make sense that a marina would be granted some degree of control over who wanders around their boat slips under the guise of 'fishing', and any rules that may be set in place are likely all encompassing.....the same for winter vs summer, even though the winter scenario with a few icefishermen close to vacant slips is really a different thing than guys in fishing boats casting around expensive yaughts in summer. So you may be treated the same in winter as the summer crowd re trespass regs which are set there via bylaw. My $.02 anyhoo. Good luck! Keep us posted on the outcome.

[Shaun Rickard]

Snag, I experienced a very similar incident last summer and got into quite a battle with the Commodore of a well known Toronto yacht club. I too was fishing a Marina and was told to leave, it got quite nasty when several of the members actually threatened my friend and I. Before retaliating I did my homework and contacted several branches of the authorities, my advice would be to do the same.

 

You can read the full story here, I am sure that you will find the information both useful and very interesting.

 

http://www.hookmorefish.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1607

 

I am 99.9% sure that you are entitled to fish where you were fishing, providing that you do not cross private property to get there or cause any damage. I can certainly understand the Marinas concerns and urge everyone to excercise caution and respect when fishing these areas, but the law is the law. If that is the only option you have to do a little ice fishing in the winter of shore fishing in the summer, tell them to leave you the hell alone.

 

As for the Police, as another member stated, despite the law they will generally take to easy route and ask you to leave. I strongly suggest speaking to the authorities that I did to get a straight and clear answer.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Cheers,

[snag]

Wow,

 

Thanks everyone!

 

You never let me down.

 

There is a lot of information here to wade through.

 

I will try to talk to the marina operators and authorities together.

 

 

I have an interesting story that will also explain the view of the Marina owners.

 

I am friends with a few boat owners and the other day had a conversation with one of the staff at a local marina/club.

 

They recently had 85 boats broken into and vandalized.

 

Thousands of dollars in damage.

 

The club/marina had to hire full time security which of course raised the members annual fees.

 

They were not impressed.

 

The intruders were able to access the property via the ICE!

 

So, I can understand why fishermen are viewed as a potential problem.

 

As mentioned, we could hurt ourselves on the property, damage property with our lures and be seen as possible intruders with ill-intent. Put that together and we can be perceived as a very unwelcome guest.

 

I've said it before,

 

You will see more "NO FISHING" bylaw signs erected if we do not tread lightly on sensitive ground.

 

A new one just went up at the Port Credit pier.

 

Converseley, we must defend our right to fish legally accessable waters.

 

Thanks again,

 

Snag

Edited February 10, 2007 by snag

[Carp]

I was speaking with an MNR Conservation Officer a few years ago.

Actually hunted with him a couple of times. Very nice guy and

really knew his stuff regarding the law.

He told me a few stories and one that relates to this thread.

 

He had to check on a complaint that very same day from a property owner about anglers tresspassing on her

property to fish a river that her property boardered on.

 

The CO checked out the call and saw a 1 guy fishing along the riverbank, actually standing in the water,

just a few feet from the road. Nothing he could do except ask, "how the fishing ?" No illegal activity.

 

This CO had 25 years on the job at that time and dealt with tresspassing issues all the time.

He told me the property owner has no right to try and chase people away who are lawfully fishing and hunting.

He said land owners think they own the lakes and rivers boardering or running through their property. They don't want to see

people walking along or fishing "their" shorelines and automatically assume these people are tresspassing.

 

His said only 1% of lake and riverbeds boardering private property in Ontario are actually owned by anyone besides the government. 99% of private land ends at the high water mark. Everything else is public land.

 

Here's another story I was personally involved with that relates.

 

I was a rep involved in the sale of a lakefront cottage and property s/e of Algonquin Park for a friend of mine. It included almost 400 acres of prime deer hunting land. Exactly what he was looking for. He was an outfitter/guide and ran his business

from this new location.

 

The previous owners didn't hunt, but allowed others in the area to do so. Upon sighting other hunters on his land, my friend explained he was the new owner and hunted himself on the property with groups of clients. The other hunters seemed a little ticked off, but said they understood his position. Area hunters continued tresspassing on his land for the next few years despite numerous verbal warnings, signs, locked gates at the road access, red dots marking his property lines. It was getting ridiculous. Police and CO's were called in at least once that I'm aware of because the tresspassers just kept coming. There was always an excuse. "We didn't see the sign, that guy is new and doesn't know the boundry, sorry, we'll be more careful, we got lost in the bush." Many times it was the same group that ended up on his land, so the excuses were wearing thin.

 

I was up there in the fall of 2005 with my dad and just as I was headed home, right in front of the main gate (locked) stood 4 hunters who were just about to enter the property, they didn't have a vehicle, so were obviously dropped off to specifically hunt my friends property, but stopped because they saw us coming. They just stood ouside the gate waiting for us to leave. I know once the coast was clear, they were in there, but not much I could do. Told my friend when I got home. He wanted to fence off the entire property, but it would be stupidly expensive.

 

After we double checked the exact boundries with the township offices to put up more signs, it was revealed that his land actually runs into the lake about 100ft. The water level increased a few feet over the years and submerged much of the original shoreline. He still doesn't own the water though. Anyone who has access to the lake can fish from a boat right in front of his property.

Edited February 10, 2007 by Carp

[Gary George]

Water is the domain of the Federal Government, no exceptions.

 

Navigable water is any water that can be navigated for commercial use. This would include logging so even hard core whitewater is considered navigable.

 

The main body of water in any Marina along rivers or lakefronts is navigable water. Therefor it is in the public domain.

 

The only circumstance under which I would avoid travel on posted water would be places signed with clear regulations regarding tresspass as layed out by Federal authorities.

 

If you find yourself in this spot again, suggest that the person threatening you call whatever authority they think is responsible for enforcing tresspass laws. It will likely be local police, they will not be able to charge you unless the registered owner of adjoining land can prove you tresspassed on that land.

 

Water rights refers to access via land and this is often confused as ownership of adjoining water. You can be charged for tresspass using adjoining land. Even in that case the land owner must be willing and have irrefutable proof of your transgression.

 

Know your rights. All the info you need for water use issues can be found on Government websites. Start with navigable water act.

[Dutch]

In many areas, cottage/home owners do not own the 15-20 feet surrounding the lake that their home or cottage is on. That is unless they have purchased the "shoreline allowance" from the municipality (not the federal government). I know this to be fact in at least 3 municipalities, Algonquin Highlands to name one. The Municipality owns the right of way to the lake, similar to any road allowance that may form part of the boundaries. Interestingly enough, there is at least one road allowance that is totally submerged on Kashabog Lake that is "owned" wholeheartedly by the municipality.

 

I know this to be fact as I once worked with a public accounting firm that audited many Local Municipalities. Part of our year-end procedures was to evaluate the purchase of these shoreline allowances by local residents. Of course, the shoreline allowance could only be purchased by the resident who owned the lot leading to the shoreline allowance. Many cottagers did this, although many did not need to undertake the expense. The allowance sold for a marginal amount, it was the survey and legal fees that added up to approximately $15,000 per purchased allowance.

 

Now, having said that, this is in more Northern Areas on small lakes, not Lake Ontario.

 

I have read many posts about Goreski's on Scugog being "private" and not open to fishing (either ice or by boat). I don't know the merit of this argument, but I know many will not fish in there, either by understanding or by choice.

 

In any event, I would give most people the benefit of the doubt. If they are asking you to leave, it's hopefully not for the sake of the fish you are after, they probably have a much larger interest in the security of high priced boats (please see the post above on the 85 boats that were broken into). Not that any law-abiding (the reason of this thread to discover the "law" interestingly enough) OFC'er would cause damage to anything that wasn't their own.

 

If in a similar circumstance I would probably state my case, that I don't think that it's illegal to fish there (probably trying to make the person telling me to leave seem like a real knob) pack up my things and leave. No use in starting something that neither party can finish. Also, as previously mentioned, if the cops are called, they will probably ask you to leave to avoid confrontation anyway. I don't think there's much point in going back and trying to prove a point. If someone (or many people for that matter) were to go fish there, more power to them, they may not even run into the same people that made the stink in the first place, but sticking the law in someone’s face is probably not the best thing to do either (whether or not it's right or wrong is another thing).

 

For the record, police do not enforce by-laws. By-laws are made by Municipalities (noise by-laws, parking by-laws and zoning by-laws, for example) and are enforced by Municipal by-law officers. The police can enforce a by-law if specifically asked to do so by a representative of the Municipality in a specific instance. An example would be a young punk with his car music or muffler way too loud (hence breaking a noise by-law). In the end I think police have a much more important job to do than be peace makers and argument settlers (especially when the "law" isn't clear).

 

I prefer to follow the "law" of common sense, after all, is it really that big of a deal, there's a lot of frozen lake out there?

 

Better yet, ask permission first (as was sort-of mentioned in a post above), get them on your side. It's much easier to ask permission than beg forgiveness. If they say no, they say no, but I personally wouldn't go the extent of asking for the deed to the water lot...I think that's asking for an argument....one that neither side will win.

Edited February 11, 2007 by Dutch

[bigfish1965]

The problem then Dutch, becomes one of diminishing availability. I understand the concerns of marina owners. I, however, am not a boat thief. I will not be treated like one. I actually own the water as a private citizen more than the marina company. What gives them the right to park their boats on MY water? Same deal. If I want to fish, it is my right to do so and I will not waiver. The police won't tell me to leave. If they suggest I should leave in the interest of peace, I will ask them to tell the complainer to shut the heck up in the interests of peace instead.

I have a legal right to fish. I will fish. There comes a day when we run out of other places to go. Step up now and say 'No, thanks, I'll stay here". Don't be a goof about it, just say no and ignore them.

[caper]

For the record, police do not enforce by-laws. By-laws are made by Municipalities (noise by-laws, parking by-laws and zoning by-laws, for example) and are enforced by Municipal by-law officers. The police can enforce a by-law if specifically asked to do so by a representative of the Municipality in a specific instance.

 

Just for the clear record, the Police can enforce/ and or charge someone under any by-law they see fit without any input from the municipality.

 

Lots of interesting discussion on this one.