Radnine Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 So essentially, this guy is to never work again because he is a bit of a tool? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BITEME Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 im with douG on this as well I have had a couple almost mirror image to what you discribed and took this approach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinbanger Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) Had very same situation about 6 months ago . A direct report ( I inherited) very skilled , lacked ( zero) team skills and even less personality at times ,we kept a good written record as well as notes from any verbal discussions .She saw what was coming and quit as she had another job lined up .That one lasted 6 months . ( spouse of a coworker worked for the same company) Shortly there after I got a VM from a search firm I have worked with before checking her references. I spoke with our HR member who suggested a view phrases , ( she had worked with us when this employee was still employed) and what NOT to say . My impression was stick to facts (challenged in a team environment , uncomfortable with change) , make sure you have documents to back it up. Gotta think she hadn't listed me as a reference ! One obvious tip , if you have submitted refernces to a potential employer , let your refernce know so they can be prepared! TB Edited January 29, 2009 by tinbanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneak_e_pete Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I am a Human Resources Manager and I would caution you about telling the truth. Being honest about poor performance could open you up to a lot of liability. The safest bet is to tell the potential employer that you will confirm dates of employment and confirm whether or not the employee is eligible for rehire. Obviously, you would say that this employee is not eligible for rehire and that would be a red flag for the potential employer. I would not elaborate on why the employee is ineligible for rehire. Unfortunately, you may sound like a broken record. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headhunter Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 It's pretty simple really, you verify employment dates and THAT'S IT! Should the ex employee get word that you have given him or her a bad reference, you are potentially liable and could find yourself facing court action. A good many of my clients will only verify employment dates... they, as a matter of company policy are not going to give you anything else. References in reality are pretty much just names and contact info in an employment file. No one ever gives the names of folks who are going to give a bad reference. Buyer beware is a good policy to to follow here! HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJQ Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 It's pretty simple really, you verify employment dates and THAT'S IT! Should the ex employee get word that you have given him or her a bad reference, you are potentially liable and could find yourself facing court action.A good many of my clients will only verify employment dates... they, as a matter of company policy are not going to give you anything else. References in reality are pretty much just names and contact info in an employment file. No one ever gives the names of folks who are going to give a bad reference. Buyer beware is a good policy to to follow here! HH Thats good advice HH.. from a professional in the field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallyboss Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Tell the other company to ask him to get a letter of reference, then the individual would have to come back to you and ask for one. I doubt he would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 As a lawyer, if you were my client, I would advise you to confirm his employment and that's it. Honesty can land you in litigation. Sugar coating your true thoughts can too. I refuse to give references to my former employees, even when they left on their own accord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toronto_Angler Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Everyone has the right to make a living...Cut the guy some slack he's out of your hair now...Everything doesn't have to be some huge morality issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Morality isn't the issue. Getting slapped with a lawsuit is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headhunter Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Exactly Marty! HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BITEME Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Everyone has the right to make a living...Cut the guy some slack he's out of your hair now...Everything doesn't have to be some huge morality issue Slack?????? wouldnt need slack if they did their job in the first place!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coreyL Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 what kind of business is this anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toronto_Angler Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Morality isn't the issue. Getting slapped with a lawsuit is. Lawsuit are you kidding me?? I would bet that that has never happened in the history of Ontario law.I don't even see how you could be held legally responsible for someone behaviour at another job because you gave them a good refernce..You are more likely to get into a lawsuit for a bad reference Slack??????wouldnt need slack if they did their job in the first place!!!!!!! I love when people feel the need to judge others before they walk a mile in their shoes...Unless someone stole from you or did something reprehensible everyone deserves a second chance because you never know what they may have been dealing with at the time...Plus it's not you have to deal with them anymore they are someone elses issue...Thats what 3 months probation is for. I'm sure everyone moral and high road sounds great in principle but this is real life where things dont always roll out by the book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headhunter Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 You couldn't be more wrong Toronto Angler! (I'll take that bet!!!!!) There have been many and I do mean many lawsuits filed and won as a result of one company giving a bad reference to another company regarding a former employee. That employee, upon getting wind of the situation, has successfully sued the former employer. That is why, as I mentioned earlier, that a large number of my clients REFUSE to give references. The morality of the situation has little to do with this... these are business decisions made at the upper management level, in an effort to stave off potential litigation. The policy is in the company's employee hand book! Also, remember that in most cases, courts will find in favour of the individual vs the large corporation. It's the way of the world. Companies are simply making efforts to eliminate any and all potential law suits. Is it right, well that really comes down to your own personal convictions, but again those don't add up to a hill of beans when your standing in front of a judge! HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toronto_Angler Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 You couldn't be more wrong Toronto Angler! (I'll take that bet!!!!!) There have been many and I do mean many lawsuits filed and won as a result of one company giving a bad reference to another company regarding a former employee.That employee, upon getting wind of the situation, has successfully sued the former employer. That is why, as I mentioned earlier, that a large number of my clients REFUSE to give references. The morality of the situation has little to do with this... these are business decisions made at the upper management level, in an effort to stave off potential litigation. The policy is in the company's employee hand book! Also, remember that in most cases, courts will find in favour of the individual vs the large corporation. It's the way of the world. Companies are simply making efforts to eliminate any and all potential law suits. Is it right, well that really comes down to your own personal convictions, but again those don't add up to a hill of beans when your standing in front of a judge! HH Headhunter I think you misread my post. I totally agree that you can get into a lawsuit for giving a bad reference, that is obvious...SOme people here felt that you could get into a lawsuit for giving a good reference and if the person screwed up on the job their new employer could sue which I found unlikely and pretty much impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headhunter Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Ok, I guess I did then! I have never heard of a company persuing another re a good reference for a bad employee... that's again, why I said earlier that references are not worth the time they take to do! HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toronto_Angler Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 why I said earlier that references are not worth the time they take to do!HH lol I can certainly agree with that point...HR justifying their positions I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRIFTER_016 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Thats what 3 months probation is for. 3 Months? When I started my new job 2 years ago I was put on probation for a year!!!!! I think that is because it is a management position with the government. Non- Management positions have a 6 month probationary period. But you are correct that the probationary period gives the employer an out if the new hire doesn't work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headhunter Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 HR always has to justify their existence... they do not generate revenue for their company directly so they have to justify to the powers that be that they are necessary... Funny how a clerk who makes between $35K and $50K can make a hiring decision for a $100K plus position!? LOL HH PS.. re probationary periods... I believe that there are laws in place regarding these, and that in some situations, a probationary periods beyond legislation within their jurisdiction are illegal... just not a comonly know thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dp3200 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 When I did my MBA we had a lawyer as a guest speaker that was talking about this very issue. In short, don't say anything. Just verify that he worked there. What good can come of it? If you say anything that is the least bit speculative and he doesn't get the job, you're toast. It sounds like a situation where you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. Your silence will speak volumes for his potential employer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radar Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I think DP 3200 has something there. "I am choosing to not offer a reference". I think it will imply anything you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizzo Posted January 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 It sounds like a situation where you have nothing to gain and everything to lose well said! There is lots of good information here. Although he made my life extremely difficult, I harbour no ill will and would never deliberately spread misinformation in order to "get back at someone". I'm not about getting even. What I would like to be able to do (in a world without lawsuits) is just be able to tell the truth! For certain roles he would be ideal, for others you would be nuts to hire him...but even telling this, what does it benefit me? I will stick with confirming dates of employment and leave it at that. Thank you all for your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Gotta admit.....I am shocked and surprised that an employer can actually be sued for telling someone else the truth about a past employee. Political correctness taken to new heights!!! Unbelievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headhunter Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 It's the way of the world ChrisS! There are reasons for it, some valid, others, well, I think you can surmize what I'm getting at... it's typically people who expect to get more out of life, than they are willing to put into it.. if ya get my meaning! HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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