Moral Question

[LundGuy]

Actually it is simple when it pertains to this situation, he states it was not his fault and the client agrees with this. So it is up to him how he wants to deal with it and he should get paid for his time. There is no need for a contractor to foot the bill just because his client is a nice guy. Again as I said he can use his discretion on how he wants to handle this ,whether to charge full price or not, but it would be silly to give a full week of work free.You can still be professional , use diplomacy and still get paid. There are many times contractors have to do the right thing even when they get shafted by the customer. In this case there does not seem to be any problem either way and if Handyman wants to do it free he can, but I don't think he should, not for free. there will be enough times he will have to do things for free because of his wrong doings, this is not one of them.Thus by getting paid and giving the client a deal he keeps his client happy and feeds his family.

 

 

Quote....

# 1 I do not need to worry about this client going any where. He understands that it was not my fault the the structure blew over.

# 3 I know I am not imune to mistakes, and when I mess up I admit it. I did not mess up in this case,I built what was agreed upon.

[LundGuy]

I think I would expect a structure ti withstand winds like that. They are rare, but do occur often enough in Ontario to warrant that type of stability. Now I''m not talking about a garden shed, but a structure.

I would likely either eat the bill or give back somehow...take the money and donate it to charity in his name.

 

Now if it were built as per the owners instructions and it was a major storm, its called insurance, not the contractors fault.

If I were to paint a room with the paint you supplied and you didn't like the colour, should I paint it free the second time? If you supplied a toilet from crappy tire and I installed it, then found a leak from a sand hole in the ceramic base, I then had to take it off , have to get another and then I have to install all over again, should I do it for free? Just wondering your thoughts on these situations.

[2 tone z71]

2 yrs is not an acceptable amount of time ,stuff dont just blow over but whatever he said she said ,it would be the last thing you built for me

[jonnybass]

Two and a half tears ago I built a structure for a client who gives me a least one major project per year. Over the winter in a fierce windstorm the footings gave way and the structure was flattened much to my embarassment. In my defence the structure has already withstood many other strong windstorms, IMHO the construction of the original structure was adequate for the purposes intended. But.....it did blow over.

I have just finished rebuilding the structure in a much over-engineered manner. The client supplied all materials I just have to bill for the labour. It has cost me a week.

The question is, "Do I bill full pop or do I give him a 50% reduced rate due to the fact that I could have done a better job when I first built it?"

The debate begins.......

 

I haven't read any of the responses, so not knowing any of the particulars and based on no other info than the above quote, I would be grateful that your client came back to you at all. I would definitely give the client a greatly reduced rate (if not free) for rebuilding the structure and hope to re-coup my losses via future business transactions with said client. "you can sheer a sheep many times but skin him only once"

 

My 2cents.

 

BTW, you're lucky that he or anyone else was not injured in the collapse of the structure, or else you might not be on here debating how much $ you want to charge the poor guy... you could be getting the pants sued off of you. I assume that you have liability insurance if your structures are prone to blowing over. Just a thought.

[Baldy]

I have had a C of Q for over 35 years and been contracting for about 1/2 of that and firmly believe that HONESTY and FAIRNESS are always the best values to have in this business. Probably sounds corny to a lot of people, an oxymoron perhaps, 'honest contractor', but it has served us well and we formed a very solid customer base as a result.

 

If you truly believe that you did the work to the best of your ability and that it was an act of God that destroyed the building then you must at least be paid your costs of doing business (fuel, employee costs, insurances, misc. items, etc). If there was any amount of neglect on your part, this is where the HONEST part comes in, then you have to rebuild this structure properly at you expense, at least the owner is footing the bill for the materials.

 

I do hope that you examined the structure laying on the ground to make certain what caused it to fail, after all how do you know that the building has not been backed into by a tractor quite a few times or had some other influence to cause it to weaken? A good examination would also show sloppy workmanship, not enough or wrong kind of fasteners, not framed properly etc.

 

Both yourself and the owner should be honest about why the structure collapsed and fair about the cost to rebuild.

[pikehunter]

I have just finished rebuilding the structure in a much over-engineered manner. The client supplied all materials I just have to bill for the labour. It has cost me a week.

 

To me it sounds like you already made an agreement with him regarding this situation. He pays material and pays your labour. However, I would have a kitchen table discussion about it now that all is done and find out his true feelings about it. If he is willing to pay the full labour cost then bill him half and this way everyone is happy. You cover your expenses and hopefully make a little and he gets a new building for a good price.

 

Remember there are no guarantees that he will ever do business with you again regardless of the decision or outcome.

 

Been there, done that, best of luck.

[brickNblock]

There is another angle that has not been looked at as of yet.

I was a masonry contractor for well over 20 years, primarily involving the I.C.I.

I put up loadbearing walls for new Schools and/or new Recreation Facilities, along the way we installed 'ALL" steel bearing plates to recieve fabricated steel Beams/Joists etc..into my walls. (as well electrical)

There were a mess of assorted drawings to work from to get completion.

The Architectural, the Structural, the Steel shop drawings, Joist design and layout drwgs..and many, many more.

All of these required an engineers stamp.

As a seasoned mason, I soon realized that drawings of the last 10 years cannot be counted on for accuracy even with an engineers stamp..most drawings are generic for the most part and computer print outs with specifics added into these drawings.

When constucting from these drawings it is common day every occurence to find fault with design and refuse to construct/install as per drawing, rather make note and bring this to attention of the builder and why it/they are incorrect. To knowingly, blindly work to drawings and not to WHAT YOU KNOW, to be correct will come back and smack you in the wallet.

In other words,

If a client/builder wants something built in such a manner,

You must refuse if the integrity of the structure is not maintained.

Regardless of what the drawings read......Sure, you will get paid for working as per drawings..

But if the structure is deemed unfit later - redesigned, removed, rebuilt...it costs us all sooner or later.

By standing up and making known something not sufficient to start with you yourself look much the better.

If a guy wanted you to build him a dog house using 1x1's and the dog he had in mind for the house was a big'ol Newfy Lab...you'd refuse to build it stating something more substantial.

Everyone walks away the winner...including the dog.

 

I am now in school working towards my diploma in Construction and Architectural Engineering.....lol

Edited April 11, 2008 by brickNblock

[brickNblock]

.....add on.

Not everyone who works exactly to the drawings given them gets paid.

 

Case....The New Toronto Library. (this was about 15yrs ago)

It was a fine structure, an architectural feat in design but,

an engineering mess.

This new library was the talk of the industry...quite the spectacle...all 5 storeys of her.

You know what...Not one person took into account the weight of books.

They started loading in the books at the 5th floor..halfway finished the fourth floor this magnificent looking structure had dropped on two corners almost 7".......

Needless to say all the floor and ceiling joist had been already twisted and bent, windows were cracking from the strain.

Well, the enginers went into bankruptcy.........Yikes.

All contrators with remaining holdback on invoice were not paid...nor would they be.

They were not paid as it turned out for not building with any foresight of what may transpire with the added weight.

Common sense.......

If you dont build anything the way YOU KNOW it shold be...dont expect to get paid for it or plain dont build it at all.

[Gerritt]

And that is the reason why we have the Constructions Liens Act.... Sub-trades hate it.... GC's should embrace it

 

 

I am pretty sure any structure built in The City of Hamilton over 10x10 and fixed to earth requires a Permit... Farm use or not. I also mentioned about having an engineers stamp.. but felt it went on to long and edited it..

 

Have it stamped by an engineer... removes responsibility from you.

 

G

Edited April 11, 2008 by Gerritt

[Big Cliff]

I will say that after running my own business for 20 some years there were a few times where I bit the bullet so to speak and it always came back to me in spades. Good will can do a lot for your reputation and be a good investment in the future! I don't really think it matters much what anyone else would do, you have to do what feels right to you.

[tinbanger]

let me offer this

 

I have been on the 'owner' side of commercial development for over 15 years , everything from small maintenance projects to multi million dollar projects . I have dealt with numerous contractors over the years .Some only once others multiple times

 

But only one for those entire 15 years and I think you can guess why .

 

 

Lots of talk of permits ,insurance and engineering but at the end of the day you are the one who is dealing with the customer ( and a good one at that it sounds)

His word of mouth advertising will come back 10 fold .

 

TB

[lookinforwalleye]

I find it strange that a structure because it is a farm does not require a building permit, sounds fishy to me I need a permit to build a 10 x 10 deck!

[brickNblock]

I find it strange that a structure because it is a farm does not require a building permit, sounds fishy to me I need a permit to build a 10 x 10 deck!

Different zones...different by-laws.

I'm not permitted to build the addition Id like to without first getting permission from the Lower Trent Conservation Auhority...then the town if all is good.

Turns out we're already in non-compliance...ie:distance back from the water.(200' high water mark/100yr)*

But,

I can build.(rebuild) my deck without any permit whatsoever.....

Ok..I just make it a little larger...add a roof....and enclose the thing..presto, new addition.

Ill then remove the back wall of the house and the roof above from the inside.

Many folk in my paRTS have done just that without problem.

I'll not be inviting problems from the town or anywhere else as it is an accepted practise.-----------------------------

Its an existing structure is why its possible....and the roof line will not be higher.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ch312]

"the footings gave way"

 

ive been doing concrete for over 4 years on residential and commercial job sites and i have never seen this happen where the footings and foundations were done properly. pm me and let me know how you prepped and poured the concrete and ill let ya know what went wrong there.

 

as to figuring the rest of it out. ive had customers tell me how they want things done to save money or make things look "better" in their eyes. when things like that happen i just tell them i wont do the job unless its done properly which will cost you X amount of dollars. if you arent willing to pay to have it done properly, find someone else as i dont do shoddy work. ive done 12 jobs on my own and not once has a person not given me the job when i told them this (even though its only happened 3 times so far).

 

sometimes even when you do things properly things happen. 2 years ago i did a sidewalk leading from the porch to the driveway. i prepped the base properly, went overkill with everything, and made control cuts at all the proper spots yet it still cracked in 2 spots customer said he wanted the whole thing replaced and i told him id do it if he paid for everything including labor. told me i was being ridiculous and that it was my job and it was my problem. he called over his engineer buddy and we went over how i did everything and his buddy said i did it all right but sometimes things just happen and it wasnt my fault. so i filled in the cracks (hairline) and fixed their driveway for free and got 4 or 5 more jobs out of that one.

[ch312]

not to hijack the thread, but what could possibly happen if someone renovated a whole house without permits?

[danbo]

Follow your heart..

[Big Cliff]

Build a deck or an addition or an extension without the proper permits and you might get away with it for now but when you go to sell the place down the road and the purchaser wants a survey you could find yourself in a whole lot of trouble, I.E. you could be fined and made to remove the structure.

 

We had a problem in Milton because I closed in one side of a car port and put a garage door on the one end. It was no longer considered a car port, they now considered it a garage which I didn't have a permit for. Then, because there was a door out to the car port and a window in that wall changes had to be made to the door and window so that they would meet code.... the list goes on! I don't even want to go into all the problems I had getting a permit after the fact and my wife worked for the planning Dept. and the inspector was a friend. I would never buy a place without getting a survey and I'd much rather go through the hassel of getting a permit now than trying to get one later and getting it denied.

[Stoty]

Id shake his hand and tell him your sorry,id eat the bill and continue the relationship but thats me ,if I build something and it fails its on me be it structure or an engine

 

Totally agreed.

Its nothing against your work at all. Mother nature is powerful, and sometimes no matter how "well built" something it, it doesnt stand a chance against her!

 

Believe me, your customer will appreciate it, and will go out of his way to generate more business for you.

 

"You have to spend money, to make money"

[capt bruce]

Im an engineer , and I have to stand by what ever plans I have approved(and stamped) and when it fails(hopefully never happens ,at least it has not happened yet) I TAKE THE BLAME , (thats why we get the big bucks lol, big bucks I wish, those go to the developer eh Gerritt who did the work and who got the big bucks in that great house you guys built , not the enginner or the workers I bet ) Would go a long way if you made a gesture and didnt bill your regular rates as this was a redo and Im sure the guy even tho he knows it wasnt your fault, is angry he has to pay twice for the same job . So I would give him a deal and eat A little bit of his costs just for the long term relationship and his future business but not work for free .

[fishinggeek]

Isn't this what insurance is for though? If I was the structure owner and thought the contractor did a poor job, I would be talking with my insurance company and my lawyer. And I certainly wouldn't want the same contractor to re-build the structure. Again this is all assuming I thought the contractor was somehow negligent.

[Tootsie II]

To answer Ch312, if you did a total renovation without a permit, the municipality could order you to open up every inch of the walls to allow inspection of the structural, electrical, mechanical and plumbing elements. They of course could also haul your butt into court for not getting a permit.

 

We have even had a least two houses built illegally that were hidden from the roadways that were discovered. In both cases the judges ordered them bulldozed because there were serious breaches of the planning by-laws or environmental/health unit regulations.

One was estimated to cost over $ 200,000. to build.

 

With regard to small airports, they are indeed federally regulated and the provincial building codes and planning regulations do not for the most part apply. There have been some minor exceptions, but most buliding inspectors who've laid charges for hangars built without a permit were promptly laughed out of court by the judge/J.o.P..

 

With regard to the original thread, as a former building "techie" I am wondering how a footing would fail causing a collapse in a wind storm. With the possible exception of horizontal silo's, most footings are below ground. The fact that the customer is willing to pay for the material to reconstruct leaves me wondering about the original design. Is the customer getting an insurance settlement that he is not owning up to?

I think like some one else has suggested, I'd make sure that my staff labour costs including E.I., WSIB, CPP and any other costs are covered and then consider eating the costs of my own time, labour and profit. This would be especially true if the customer is not mad at you and came back to you in a spirit of fair reconciliation. The goodwill that it should create would probably pay dividends in the future not just with his business but also with others when he tells them about it.

[irishfield]

not to hijack the thread, but what could possibly happen if someone renovated a whole house without permits?

 

You just "painted" ... right !

[Gerritt]

Problem is the structure was probably built after insurance was put into force.. I am sure the insurance company would probably want to see permits and stamped drawings before paying out on the structure..

 

Not sure here... but I think the insurance company would be looking to sue someone to recoup their costs... especially if proper procedures are not adhered too.

 

 

You just cannot build anything you want anywhere you want anymore without proper documentation and permission from the proper authorities.

 

There are reasons that contractors do things by the book ie. permits, engineers approvals etc... to prevent the Contractor from being sued in case of loss.

 

Would you underpin a house without an engineers report? highly unlikely. I see little difference here.

 

Farm building, House, townhouse complex Do things by the book and your safe.

 

Did the structure conform to the OBC? Did it comply to municipal amendments? Were loads calculated and verified? were soil tests done to ensure the earth could support the structure? etc etc etc...

 

There are so many variables here that would have been known conditions had a permit and engineers report been obtained.

 

G

[irishfield]

With regard to small airports, they are indeed federally regulated and the provincial building codes and planning regulations do not for the most part apply. There have been some minor exceptions, but most buliding inspectors who've laid charges for hangars built without a permit were promptly laughed out of court by the judge/J.o.P..

 

Thanks for confirming that tootsie.. so others know I'm not blowing smoke. I type fact, and have copies of the summons to face my $25,000 fine for building without a permit, the anguish scars, the laughter, the tears and the court and lawyer costs receipts paid by the municipality when they got thrown out of court. As well as their apology letter to me in hopes of me dropping my harassment and tresspassing suits against them.

 

Methinks Wayne might be a pretty good example of a true businessman here. At the end of the day you get back more than what you give in business, if you do your giving judiciously.

 

Well thanks John... all I can tell you is that if what I currently build "falls down"...it's not gonna be a good day !

Edited April 11, 2008 by irishfield

[napjohn8]

You need to look at many aspects,

 

a) did he agree to pay your price,

oral or written agreement

 

Your best bet is to claim frustration because it was an event that was forseeable but both of your were unable to control it, best bet is to discharge the cotnract and bear the loss. Its not worth it to fight over a few thousand dollars, make that time up doing another project on the side.