Health care cutbacks NF

[Old Ironmaker]

I too thought teachers were over paid baby sitters and told them that. That was until I took a job teaching WHIMIS. They earn every penny they make.

 

I've been around a bit and can tell you who is woefully underpaid and over worked. Ontario Nurses. Mom is in the General in Hamilton again and it is ridiculous watching these RN's and RNA's running ragged. I watched an experienced RN basically train a young MD just yesterday.

[FrankTheRabbit]

Next time someone you know and love is really sick, call a teacher and see how that works out.

 

Luckily, that won't happen to many of us. There has never been more practicing physicians today than ever before. Despite what you have mentioned about doctors leaving Canada, you seem to have left out that we're also seeing an influx of doctors coming to Canada or doctors who have previously left, to return. So, your attempt to paint a dire situation is moot. Nice try though!

Edited August 6, 2016 by FrankTheRabbit

[Mister G]

 

Luckily, that won't happen to many of us. There has never been more practicing physicians today than ever before. Despite what you have mentioned about doctors leaving Canada, you seem to have left out that we're also seeing an influx of doctors coming to Canada or doctors who have previously left, to return. So, your attempt to paint a dire situation is moot. Nice try though!

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/canadas-doctor-shortage-worsening/

[FrankTheRabbit]

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/canadas-doctor-shortage-worsening/

Nice try again tho. The article you chose to quote your stats from dates back to 2008. And even the article you decided to link includes a paragraph:

 

"In 2006, for the third year running, the number of Canadian physicians returning home was greater than the number who left (238 compared to 207)."

 

https://www.cma.ca/En/Pages/basic-physician-facts.aspx

 

What's worth noting is the physicians migration statistic, the data is from 2014:

 

"Physician migration

 

198 physicians moved abroad in 2014. In the same year, 208 returned from abroad for a net gain of 10. Net gains have occurred for the past decade.

755 physicians moved to another prov/terr in 2014 (excl. residents). Net gains occurred in QC (25), ON (33), AB (16) and BC (46)."

 

This published article is from 2015:

http://globalnews.ca/news/2248012/number-of-doctors-on-the-rise-in-canada-and-payments-hit-24-billion-report/

 

This article published in 2013:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canada-has-more-doctors-making-more-money-than-ever/article14562208/?service=mobile

 

Man, I could go on if you'd like.

Edited August 6, 2016 by FrankTheRabbit

[muddler]

Sorry Terry, I've heard your type of argument many times from many people.

 

If teaching is such a lucrative and easy job, quit what you are doing, go back to school and become a teacher. Same for a doctor. That would be and undergrad degree(3-4 years). Pre-med (4-6 years), then internship (2-3 years). Minimum 8 years and up to 13 years.

 

No this isn't a watered down community college trade course that you can do in 2 years and be out earning $40 to $80+ an hour repairing plumbing.

 

Don't get me started on lawyers and the legal system ($400 an hour minimum and the sky is the limit). 5 minute phone calls costs you at least $100 and a photocopy can be as much as $200.

 

So Terry before you spout off on the people that hold jobs that are essential to our society (yes there many other not mentioned here) take a good look at what they really do and what it costs to get there.

 

Just to put it in perspective, my 28 year old neighbour across the street is a high school drop out. Partied and spent every cent he got from his parents, part time work, EI, etc. 4 years ago he got a job in the paper mill as a labourer. He got his High school equivalency at a local college and officially he holds a HS diploma. He has matured and worked his way up, from one job to another. He is now 4th hand on the paper machines and earns just over $90,000 a year without overtime. He has made an extra $20,000 to $30,000 per year overtime so he can buy his expensive toys. Yup he makes more than most teachers with out any responsibility after he punches out. I DON"T HEAR ANYONE COMPLAINING ABOUT HIS EARNINGS! Good for him, he made it.

 

I have grown weary of the complaints about teachers,doctors and other professionals. Don't blame them for working hard academically and getting ahead.

 

Nobody forced you to do the work you do, you picked it. It didn't pick you. Don't like it, become a teacher, doctor, lawyer or what ever but don't begrudge them.

 

7-12 million a year to chase a hockey puck or 35 million to hit a baseball and nobody complains.

 

Sometimes I think out perspective is just wrong.

 

my 21/2 cents, MUD

Edited August 8, 2016 by muddler

[Terry]

first muddy goof I never said teachers dont earn what they make , I said per hour and education I feel doctors dont make enough compared to teachers thats not putting teachers down, it was to build doctors up

 

edit:

to hell with it,I type a lot more But deleted it your not worth the effort

[muddler]

Read your own posts. Thank a teacher that you can read.

 

Like I said, quit and become a teacher if it's so easy.

Edited August 8, 2016 by muddler

[John Bacon]

Read your own posts. Thank a teacher that you can read.

 

Like I said, quit and become a teacher if it's so easy.

 

It's not easy to become a teacher because there are a lot more people who want to be teachers than there are teaching jobs...

[Ralph Field]

There always has to be some goofball that wants to knock teachers, because they could never become one.

[Terry]

here is everything I posted, and its all fact please show me where I knocked a teacher

unless you feel letting people know how much they make for 9.5 months a year work embarrasses you

I think doctors deserve more money

 

when you see the hours they put in the expenses they have

the education and debt

then look at what a teacher makes for working 6.5 hours a day 9.5 months a year

and I feel bad for the doctors

no they dont, have to work more hours they get planing time

many school boards break their pays up to 26 payments so they do get paid

but damn they get the summer off life is a whine they have to try to save some of their 85/ 100,000.00 pay check to survive the summer

life is tough..and yeah 100k for 9.5 months isnt enough let get them a summer job too

I dont think I said teachers should make less

but rather docs should make more compared to teachers

but feel free to invent what I wrote

Posted 05 August 2016 - 12:10 PM

I can name many teachers who get to work 15 min before the students and leave the same time as the students

they mark work during school hours and have a filing cabinet with the whole year sitting in it

 

now subtract the build rent the doctor pays the nurse he pays for the person at the desk and all the equipment

the crazy hours he works 6 days a week for most, yes I feel compared to teachers , they are under paid

in most states teachers make far less then ontario teachers and their doctors make far more, hence teachers move north doctors move south

 

Posted Yesterday, 09:51 PM

first muddy goof I never said teachers dont earn what they make , I said per hour and education I feel doctors dont make enough compared to teachers thats not putting teachers down, it was to build doctors up

edit:

to hell with it,I type a lot more But deleted it your not worth the effort

[landry]

Family doctors do not take home as much as u think after expenses. Less that 150 for sure but closer to 100,000. Ya that's good money but they have to invest a ton and study under great pressure for 8 years and they work insanely hard with huge responsibities. Shouldn't they be rewarded and for taking this hard and costly career path. Shouldn't we want to encourage smart and skilled people to enter this profession so we have the best and brightest as our first line of defence in health care and illness diagnosis. We should be attacking politicians over their waste and poor spending and accountability - not our front line physicians.

 

And I love how a thread like this always ends up bashing teachers. Lol. I'm an experienced teacher and I can tell you I work 8-4:30 everyday plus, not 6.5 hrs Terry. I get fired up when people attack other professions or careers - especially skilled tradesmen or professionals who invested in their future and then are supposed to feel bad for their good salaries. I don't criticize unless I've walked in their shoes. I have friends that make nearly 100,000 at Toyota in an unskilled job too - sounds ridiculous - but would I want to do that everyday - no way!!! They also deserve it. Good for them.

[Terry]

again I did not say teachers dont deserve every cent they make, and 100% there are lots of teachers that show up at school at 7am and they stay well pass 4:30 but these days in this part of the province more show up when they have to and leave as soon as they are allowed to leave

which is 15 min before school and 15 min after and that is with in the letter of their contact... so I am not putting them down its fact as is the wages

[FrankTheRabbit]

Terry, if you are now acknowledging that some teachers do more than the 9-3:30 shift, why wouldn't you have stated that in the beginning? The comparison you initially made between doctors and teachers, sounded like ALL teachers only do 9-3:30. I don't think it was a valid comparison to begin with. Both professions are important and they rightly deserve what their compensation currently stands.

 

I'm still not sure why you think that "docs should make more compared to teachers" because they already do. Tell me how many teachers have you seen or know own a $1mil home or have a cottage in the Muskokas or send their kids to private school?

 

Family doctors do not take home as much as u think after expenses. Less that 150 for sure but closer to 100,000. Ya that's good money but they have to invest a ton and study under great pressure for 8 years and they work insanely hard with huge responsibities. Shouldn't they be rewarded and for taking this hard and costly career path. Shouldn't we want to encourage smart and skilled people to enter this profession so we have the best and brightest as our first line of defence in health care and illness diagnosis. We should be attacking politicians over their waste and poor spending and accountability - not our front line physicians.

I've included a few links previously that physicians certainly earn more than what some of us think. They average over $200k easily and I don't think that they need any sideline cheering from us.

 

If we really want to root for the underdogs (and there are plenty!) who are overworked and underpaid...have no further look than our farmers. But that is another conversation altogether.

[Terry]

i stated it because they do not have to work more then what is stated in the contract

and the ones that work the hours that are set out in the contract are not bad teachers, they are highly organized , have taught the same grade for many years, so they have little trouble getting everything marked checked and prepared during work hours... the only real hold up is the line waiting to use the photocopier .....and I hate how long they went without a raise and the poor/crappy raise they are about to get...

[landry]

I agree Terry that some teachers take advantage. It drives me crazy.

My friend is a doctor and my doctor and he makes low100,000 but he takes great pride in his work and does not whip through his appointments. He is always behind schedule cause he gives all his patients the time that is needed. That is where I got my info and first hand define from. He is awesome. I'm sure it varies with each Doctor.

I wish there was less jealousy and anger directed at other contributing Canadians and more anger and accountability for our politicians. Now there is an area where did ills salaries, pensions and spending is out of control.

I wish there were more fishing thread in this site lately:)

[Big Cliff]

This is nonsense! It started out as showing what a Dr. actually got paid for a visit compared to an appliance repair person and turned into a fight about what teachers get paid!

 

Personally I just had a conversation with a man; his wife is a school principal. He told me that if teachers ever don't get the summer off it would be because of him! I do feel that there are teachers that do the bare minimum and get paid way too much for doing it but I also remember a teacher that played a major role in my life and helped me become the president of a corp. when most of the other teachers in my life would have been happier if I just didn't show up in their classes.

 

Mr. Hugh Stephenson, grade 7 teacher, principal in our school, a man above men and he had confidence in me when even I didn't!

 

But this isn't about Mr. Stephenson, it's about a cardiologist that has kept my wife alive for longer than my washing machine has survived, a man who has invested countless hours and money to perfect the skills to do it and he got paid about 30% of what the appliance repair man gets. I fail to see the logic in this!

[FrankTheRabbit]

Aside from a few negative criticisms, I think that this has developed into a good discussion about misconceptions that some have regarding: salaries of doctors/teachers, who should earn more, how the gov't is to blame for medical cutbacks, etc., the list goes on.

 

I take it that you're not a fan of Wynne with her spending, so I questioned why the double standard when Harper brought forth these cutbacks to physicians and no one batted an eyelash. When Wynne proceeded with these cutbacks, she was called out for doing so.

 

I'm not a fan of everything she has done, but as a general taxpayer, I play the cards that I've been dealt.

 

As for your wife's cardiologist and Landry's physician, I have no clue how much they make, but what they both earn shouldn't be used as a generalization of what all physicians make to validate one's own opinion. It simply isn't accurate. From what I have read, physicians in Ontario are fairly compensated for. Again, over 90% of physicians are incorporated and have taxable benefits that allow them to keep more money than the general taxpayer.

 

To your situation specifically, here's some information regarding cardiologists in Canada that is fairly recent:

https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-library/document/en/advocacy/profiles/cardiology-e.pdf

 

In comparison with your wife's cardiologist, their compensation can be generally summed by this:

Edited August 8, 2016 by FrankTheRabbit

[lew]

I seldom get involved in these types of discussions as they generally go downhill faster than a political thread but here's my thoughts.

 

2 years ago my wife was diagnosed with lung cancer and went thru dozens of tests in 3 different hospitals. When all tests were completed the surgeon studied them and said "yup, you've got cancer for sure, but don't worry, I should be able to fix you up and make you well again"

 

He got her into surgery and made a few incisions then inserted a camera into one and his tools in the others and did what surgeons do so well. He removed the cancer and sewed her up and put her into ICU and then 3 days later he said "go home Diane, your all fixed up"

 

8 years prior to that, my wife was diagnosed with a brain aneurysm and after all the tests were completed another surgeon studied all the test results and said "yup, you've got a brain aneurysm for sure, but don't worry, I should be able to fix you up and make you well again.

 

He opened the side of her skull, went inside and actually lifted her brain up, then repaired the aneurysm, put her brain back in place, repaired her skull and told her to spend the night in the hospital and the next morning told her she was "all fixed up and go home"

 

Just my thoughts on doctors, specially surgeons, but as far as I'm concerned they can't be over payed and are NEVER payed enough for their unbelievable skills.

 

And when I hear about athletes being payed tens of millions of dollars for throwing a ball around it really makes me wonder about the screwed up society we live in.

[John Bacon]

I take it that you're not a fan of Wynne with her spending, so I questioned why the double standard when Harper brought forth these cutbacks to physicians and no one batted an eyelash. When Wynne proceeded with these cutbacks, she was called out for doing so.

 

 

Harper did not bring forth these cutbacks. Health and social transfers have increased by 6% each year under Harper. The cutback occurred in the 90's under Chretien.

[landry]

I think the discussion has been civil and appropriate. I have not had hard feelings towards anyone, Including Terry.

 

I would say that I think your neighbour principal sounds like a major hypocrite. He got his summers off for years btw too. That made me laugh.

Edited August 9, 2016 by landry

[NANUK]

I find it very hard to believe that a cardiologist makes less than $30 per patient.

[Big Cliff]

Aside from a few negative criticisms, I think that this has developed into a good discussion about misconceptions that some have regarding: salaries of doctors/teachers, who should earn more, how the gov't is to blame for medical cutbacks, etc., the list goes on.

 

I take it that you're not a fan of Wynne with her spending, so I questioned why the double standard when Harper brought forth these cutbacks to physicians and no one batted an eyelash. When Wynne proceeded with these cutbacks, she was called out for doing so.

 

I'm not a fan of everything she has done, but as a general taxpayer, I play the cards that I've been dealt.

 

As for your wife's cardiologist and Landry's physician, I have no clue how much they make, but what they both earn shouldn't be used as a generalization of what all physicians make to validate one's own opinion. It simply isn't accurate. From what I have read, physicians in Ontario are fairly compensated for. Again, over 90% of physicians are incorporated and have taxable benefits that allow them to keep more money than the general taxpayer.

 

To your situation specifically, here's some information regarding cardiologists in Canada that is fairly recent:

https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-library/document/en/advocacy/profiles/cardiology-e.pdf

 

In comparison with your wife's cardiologist, their compensation can be generally summed by this:

Oh you got one thing right, I am no fan of Wynne's at all, to be quite honest with you I think she should be in jail for some of the things she has been a part of.

 

As far as what her cardiologist makes, she has been his patient for 16 years now, he is not only her Dr. he is also a friend whom we trust!

[FrankTheRabbit]

 

Harper did not bring forth these cutbacks. Health and social transfers have increased by 6% each year under Harper. The cutback occurred in the 90's under Chretien.

 

Sorry, my mistake...:

 

"In contrast to that approach, the Conservative government’s then-finance minister, the late Jim Flaherty, surprised his provincial counterparts at a December, 2011, meeting in Victoria by informing them of a new formula. Starting in 2017-18, a Conservative government would bring in a system that would tie the growth rate of health transfers to economic growth, with a minimum guaranteed increase of 3 per cent."

 

Harper did not personally come up with the idea of reducing health and social transfers from 6% to 3% minimum, which would be tied to the GDP of that province.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/trudeau-vows-to-renegotiate-health-transfers-with-provinces/article26606362/

 

Still, no one whispered a peep when this was brought forth, especially from Harper supporters.

 

Cliff: Politicians are one of the very few people who get away with so many things, that us regular plebs would easily end up in the joint. Duffy, Wallin, Brazeau must had one of those Monopoly Get Out of Jail Free cards in their back pockets. To avoid the argument of who spent more, fraud is fraud...It's black and white, there's no grey in between. Even the white collar lads who caused the whole 2008-2009 kerfuffle, only very few ended up in jail. I think we can agree on that.

Edited August 9, 2016 by FrankTheRabbit

[John Bacon]

 

Sorry, my mistake...:

 

"In contrast to that approach, the Conservative government’s then-finance minister, the late Jim Flaherty, surprised his provincial counterparts at a December, 2011, meeting in Victoria by informing them of a new formula. Starting in 2017-18, a Conservative government would bring in a system that would tie the growth rate of health transfers to economic growth, with a minimum guaranteed increase of 3 per cent."

 

Harper did not personally come up with the idea of reducing health and social transfers from 6% to 3% minimum, which would be tied to the GDP of that province.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/trudeau-vows-to-renegotiate-health-transfers-with-provinces/article26606362/

 

Still, no one whispered a peep when this was brought forth, especially from Harper supporters.

 

Did you notice the year? Starting in 2017-18! It hasn't happened yet? We have a new government now. The transfer payments for 2017-18 will be set by Trudeau's government; not Harper's. How can you use Harper's planned 2017-18 budget as an excuse for cuts by the Wynne government?

 

As for no one whispering a peep; I have heard far more complaints about Harper reducing the rate of increase from 6% to 3% than I did about the Liberals actually cutting health and social transfers by 34%. At least they were still going up under Harper instead of going down like they did under the previous Liberal government.

 

Three percent annual increases is way better than what the provinces got while Chretien was in power. McGuinty & Wynne have had very generous transfer payments compared to the cuts that Rae and Harris had to deal with.

[landry]

I need to go fishing.