Who is going to pull the trigger?

[Dutch01]

You guys are gonna make a dude blush!

Edited November 19, 2015 by Dutch01

[Dutch01]

Again well brought up points but just a simple question

 

God forbid but what if what just happened in Paris happened in our country,,,you just could not talk about it at Tims, obviously some sort of action would have to be taken, and what sort of action would be appropriate,,please understand am just regarding how we would deal with this type of situation

I posted above about how a man who lost his wife in the attacks in Paris has responded. I don't know that I would be able to have his strength and courage but I hope so, because he's right. Islamic State's goal is to increase hatred and violence. They want more Islamaphobia because they will believe it will drive moderates to their cause. We are taking the bait.

 

Watch the Syrian flyover video I posted if you haven't already. In 2009 there were 1.7M people living in that city. Look at it now. How popular do you think we are with those that remain alive? If doing that to them was a solution, then Paris would not have occurred (we've been bombing them for years and they still pulled off Paris).

[aplumma]

With the unrest unchecked it will spread. The idea of ignoring or hoping peace will overcome evil is not a realistic expectation from a rotted seed. The soldiers of the world who live and die for your peace paid with their time in the forces and some with their lives. We all need to respect their sacrifice and to not let their deaths be in vain just because we don't feel the evil will reach our personal lives. You have as much chance of levitating a glass of water as wishing Isil will become peaceful. I will stop here with the hope that we appreciate our people in the military and support them in their mission that gives you the safety and the ability to stay at home and wish for peace.

 

Disheartened by the lack of support of our military

 

 

Art

[Dutch01]

 

 

I am not one for imposing violence, but the point is that if everyone takes the side that we can allow a place like syria (in the exact same way that afghanistan was) become a terrorist state, you leave a massive deal of political unrest in a region.

 

You dont have to like everything that our allies do, i.e. isreal, the USA, england and even France, but at the end of the day they are our allies, and as such we have a duty to fight along side them when the cause is just.

 

Some of us here obviously believe that the situation in Syria will never escalate further than the tribal skirmishes that have dominated the middle east for thousands of years, however others of us see the idea of a terrorist state as a real threat...please let us not forget the methods used by the natzi's in ww2. No one thought they were a threat until it was far too late.

 

I think in a lot of ways we need to step back and think, what if this happened in downtown Toronto, would we be singing the same tune? Everyone is entitled to their opinion absolutely, but I dont think the debate here is whether or not military action works in neutrilizing threats...the real debate is how real and big that threat is...

 

some here clearly feel that if we leave syria and the middle east alone, those problems will remain there and peace will prevail in our own country, others here clearly feel that the total unrest in war in those countries can very easily spill over to ours.

 

Personally I am not sure what sparked off a bunch of saudis and UAE's and egyptions to go knock down the twin towers on 911, as far as i was aware the United states and nato in general were not conducting any major operations aside from in Iraq at that time...but it happened, with a bunch of people that were trained in afghanistan....get my point? anyways im ranting

 

I love the idea of peace, but i think last friday showed us that these guys are for real and a real threat...its time to act along side our allies, because they hopefully will be there for us when crap inevitably hits the fan here in the next 1000 years. Telling someone else to deal with it and bailing out on your friends typically makes it tough to ask for help when the scenario is reversed.

I have been pretty clear about the type of support I think we should offer our allies and I don't think it qualifies as putting my head in the sand.

 

If you lived in Syria right now, and all "the West" was offering is more bombs, and IS offers you food for your kids, what would you choose?

 

Even those that flee, and are lucky enough to 1) not get caught/killed by IS and 2) not drown trying to get to Europe will end up in a place were everyone looks at them sideways, and they'll never feel welcome.

 

Look at the jerks who attacked a woman wearing a hijab in the TTC today. I guarantee you they repeat the line about how "Muslims treat their women like crap" to their racist friends. Yet somehow they cannot detect their own hypocrisy in that they just attacked a woman themselves.

[mr blizzard]

Thank you Art, we are not people looking for trouble but when trouble comes into our countries we have a moral obligation to protect our nations, obviously, and not to disrespect or forget what so many people gave their lives for.

 

It will not be limited to just "over there" , they want what they want

 

Art again well done

[Dutch01]

With the unrest unchecked it will spread. The idea of ignoring or hoping peace will overcome evil is not a realistic expectation from a rotted seed. The soldiers of the world who live and die for your peace paid with their time in the forces and some with their lives. We all need to respect their sacrifice and to not let their deaths be in vain just because we don't feel the evil will reach our personal lives. You have as much chance of levitating a glass of water as wishing Isil will become peaceful. I will stop here with the hope that we appreciate our people in the military and support them in their mission that gives you the safety and the ability to stay at home and wish for peace.

 

Disheartened by the lack of support of our military

 

 

Art

Art,

 

I absolutely support our soldiers 100%, and I am very much aware that my freedom came at their sacrifice.

 

I also have been clear about the role I believe they should play, which is not "hoping peace will overcome".

 

Finally I believe when I say "Hey, wait a minute... Why do Canadian men and women have to be the ones to die when there are 4.5M troops already over there and doing nothing" I AM supporting our troops. Our men and women are not supposed to waste their lives so defense contractors can sell more munitions.

 

Before the tin foil hat accusations come out, the President of the United States himself warned the American public in a State of the Union address that this would happen. That the Office of the President itself would become beholden to the military industrial complex. I am not making this up.

 

How quickly we forget.

 

PS: Art, my abrupt tone is not directed at you, it's time to "punch out" and go home so I'm trying to type quick!

Edited November 19, 2015 by Dutch01

[manitoubass2]

I for one support the soldiers.

 

Just not those that control them.

[mr blizzard]

I respect all comments from everyone, that what this board is all about, but we have had many decades of relatively peace free living, times are changing and again we have been able to be arm chair quarter backs in regards to solving other peoples problems in other countries but I totally feel some people may be nervous or in denial that it could happen here, have we not already lost 2 soldiers on our turf. All the talk in the world will not stop them from ramping up activities in the USA and Canada.

 

The point is what are we going to continue to due to protect Canada and the USA when s..t hits the fan here

[Dutch01]

I respect all comments from everyone, that what this board is all about, but we have had many decades of relatively peace free living, times are changing and again we have been able to be arm chair quarter backs in regards to solving other peoples problems in other countries but I totally feel some people may be nervous or in denial that it could happen here, have we not already lost 2 soldiers on our turf. All the talk in the world will not stop them from ramping up activities in the USA and Canada.

 

The point is what are we going to continue to due to protect Canada and the USA when s..t hits the fan here

I don't necessarily have all the answers, but I do know that if we keep bombing them from afar, they'll make sure they bring it here to us.

 

When I look at that video of Syria, I am appalled at what we have wrought.

[manitoubass2]

I don't necessarily have all the answers, but I do know that if we keep bombing them from afar, they'll make sure they bring it here to us.

 

When I look at that video of Syria, I am appalled at what we have wrought.

Absolutely! Add libya and iraq etc to that list

[mr blizzard]

But they have already done it here, one life or more than one is one to many

 

We have not brought it on. some corrupt seeds have

[Dutch01]

But they have already done it here, one life or more than one is one to many

 

We have not brought it on. some corrupt seeds have

Our bombs have killed more innocents than all the terrorist attacks combined, probably by a factor of thousands. We've been bombing for years now. If bombing works, how did Paris happen?

 

If one dead Canadian is one too many, how do you think they feel in Syria, having lost over 210,000 lives since the conflict began? How can a person lack empathy to the point of saying 210,000 isn't enough, let's kill them all? It's horrific and inhuman.

 

If we don't learn to accept our own complicity in the problem, how can we ever begin to address it?

 

 

PS mr blizzard, didn't mean to imply you personally were advocating "kill em all", I have heard it said too many times over the last few days.....

Edited November 20, 2015 by Dutch01

[Canuck2fan]

 

Didn't they launch the Do Little Raid, B-25's off a aircraft carrier and bombed Tokyo very early in the war, the first year, I don't think a land base was really necessary.

 

Yes the raid you were talking about was done from aircraft carrier but they had to land in China and Russia.

 

The a bombs were dropped from B-29 Superfortresses WAY too big and heavy to take off from any aircraft carrier.

 

The Enola Gay who dropped Little Boy flew from Tinian and so did Bockscar who dropped Fat Man.

 

Which would not have been possible unless naval and ground forces took back the island of Tinian

[woodenboater]

The problem re: Syria, as I see it, is that there is no 'better' side in that equation. On one side are ISIL, we're all in agreement about them. On the other side is Syria, who crush opposition to Assed, they gas their own people etc.. Do we really have to choose between the lesser of two evils ?

 

There is no easy answer to this but we can't sit back and let others get dirty in the trenches. If we stay home while everyone else takes the fight to them, then chances are, they'll be not so inclined to help us when the time comes. This is not Iraq 2003 where we were right not to take part, but blowback from that invasion.

[manitoubass2]

Assad gassing his own people is highly debatable...

[Canuck2fan]

With the unrest unchecked it will spread. The idea of ignoring or hoping peace will overcome evil is not a realistic expectation from a rotted seed. The soldiers of the world who live and die for your peace paid with their time in the forces and some with their lives. We all need to respect their sacrifice and to not let their deaths be in vain just because we don't feel the evil will reach our personal lives. You have as much chance of levitating a glass of water as wishing Isil will become peaceful. I will stop here with the hope that we appreciate our people in the military and support them in their mission that gives you the safety and the ability to stay at home and wish for peace.

 

Disheartened by the lack of support of our military

 

 

Art

 

No one respects Canadian or US troops more than I do.

 

I respect them so much that rather send them over to be killed as canon fodder in yet another failed PEACE after a briefly successful war. I want there to be a remote chance of them not having to go back in a couple of years. NO ONE has an answer of how that is possible or likely to happen, until we do lets save our troops until there is, if that isn't supporting the military then I guess I am guilty.

 

How many of our finest have to give their lives, limbs or sanity in trying to protect the people over there only to see after we lose interest and pull out the rest of our troops, a group of worse thugs pop up and do even more evil in a few years or less?

 

Rest assured though that once the idiots in charge send them into any war I support them totally and unabashedly. Not only while they are there but for whatever they need when they come home.

 

I just don't see wasting their lives as being very smart in this case, when the people there WILL not stand up for themselves after we hand them back their country, as evidenced by how quickly Iraq's military fled when ISIS started up...

Edited November 20, 2015 by Canuck2fan

[manitoubass2]

 

No one respects Canadian or US troops more than I do.

 

I respect them so much that rather send them over to be killed as canon fodder in yet another failed PEACE after a briefly successful war. I want there to be a remote chance of them not having to go back in a couple of years. NO ONE has an answer of how that is possible or likely to happen, until we do lets save our troops until there is, if that isn't supporting the military then I guess I am guilty.

 

How many of our finest have to give their lives, limbs or sanity after we lose interest and pull out our troops. Only to see a group of worse thugs pop up and do even more evil in a few years or less?

 

Rest assured though that once the idiots in charge send them into any war I support them totally and unabashedly. Not only while they are there but for whatever they need when they come home. I just don't see wasting their lives as being very smart.

To a civilian, its not smart.

 

To others its highly profitable....

[SirCranksalot]

The Iraq wars were 'transfer mechanisms' to transfer $ from the American taxpayer into the hands of the owners of Haliburton et. al. Eisenhower warned about the 'military-industrial complex' many years ago(He probably coined the term). His warnings have not been heeded.

[irishfield]

Cheney and Rumsfeld say thank you!

Edited November 20, 2015 by irishfield

[Canuck2fan]

To a civilian, its not smart.

 

To others its highly profitable....

 

 

The Iraq wars were 'transfer mechanisms' to transfer $ from the American taxpayer into the hands of the owners of Haliburton et. al. Eisenhower warned about the 'military-industrial complex' many years ago(He probably coined the term). His warnings have not been heeded.

 

You two must have read the book Drift by Rachel Maddel... It illustrates about just HOW the military industrial complex got the U.S. taxpayer to spend more than the next 26 in the world COMBINED on "defense" and 24 or so of them are are ALLIES.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Canuck2fan

[Canuck2fan]

Cheney and Rumsfeld say thank you!

 

Only after they both go CHA CHING a few hundred million times.... LOL

[Dutch01]

The problem re: Syria, as I see it, is that there is no 'better' side in that equation. On one side are ISIL, we're all in agreement about them. On the other side is Syria, who crush opposition to Assed, they gas their own people etc.. Do we really have to choose between the lesser of two evils ?

 

There is no easy answer to this but we can't sit back and let others get dirty in the trenches. If we stay home while everyone else takes the fight to them, then chances are, they'll be not so inclined to help us when the time comes. This is not Iraq 2003 where we were right not to take part, but blowback from that invasion.

I'm curious why you think it has to be us in the trenches? Why not Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iran, Egypt, etc. These countries have 4.5M troops in theatre already. It's their backyard, why not them? are you so eager to see Canadians in harm's way? edited because that comment was uncalled for.

 

And spare me that baloney about they won't help us later. If anyone ever invades Canada, the U.S. isn't going to say "hey Canada, remember that time you guys wouldn't come to Syria?". That's just a fantasy.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Dutch01

[OhioFisherman]

http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/13/news/economy/jobs-at-risks-robots/index.html?iid=ob_homepage_money_pool&iid=obnetwork

 

" The Bank of England has warned that machines could take over 80 million American and 15 million British jobs over the next 10 to 20 years. That's roughly 50% of the workforce in each country. "

 

Picture the world if this comes to pass? While the article only mentions the USA and British, is there any doubt it would spread to other countries?

[bigugli]

I don't usually weigh in on these debates. However, there are a few other points to consider.

 

Since the end of WW II there has not been a year of peace. Regional strife and proxy wars have continued non-stop. Canada staying out of a fight will not keep Canadians out of harm's way. A lot of Canadians, including friends and messmates,have died on such misguided fool's errands as "peacekeeping".. To keep Canada out of the fight is impossible. It is already here. To eradicate the threat requires removing every moslem from within our borders. Neither feasible nor wise.

Now to take a page from the history we are currently commemorating. The middle east of today is no different than the Balkans some 110-120 years back. A hot bed of regional strife and conflict. All the big players in the world had an interest in the region, and in the end, they were drawn in and suckered into a bigger fight by a single extremist act. The result was WW I. The Middle East is a similar regional hotbed, and we again see all the big guns taking sides and posturing. We also see a lot of extremist factions using violence to attract attention to their cause/s.. Who knows when the balance will topple, or whether cooler heads will prevail.

Edited November 20, 2015 by bigugli

[mr blizzard]

No Dutch I never implied that comment at all, some others may have swayed in that direction but not myself, I simply posed the question, how do we deal with another attack in Canada or for that matter in the States , ignoring it would not do a thing