Muskies, sort of interesting?

[OhioFisherman]

http://www.lakescientist.com/lake-facts/fish/muskellunge/

 

 

" Muskellunge Biology

Muskellunge and northern pike many times inhabit similar habitats, and research in Minnesota revealed a few interesting findings. Muskie, in the absence of northern pike, tend to reproduce in the same shallow, weedy areas that would normally be dominated by northern pike spawning during the spring. However, in the presence of northern pike the muskellunge tend to spawn in slightly deeper water, yielding the more preferred habitat to the northern pike. The presence or absence of northern pike also appears to impact ultimate growth of muskellunge. Muskie inhabiting waters without northern pike rarely reach total lengths of more than 40 inches, while muskie in the presence of northern pike occasionally surpass 60 inches.
Muskie spawning generally occurs when water temperatures are in the 50s (°F), and a 40-pound female can produce about 200,000 eggs. Muskie larvae eat plankton after absorption of their yolk sac and soon switch to a diet of strictly fish. Peak feeding periods for muskellunge usually occur when water temperatures are in the mid-60s. "

[outllaw]

great info. to become a good musky fisherman it pays to crack the generic code of these fish. migration..spawn cycles theres tonnage of great info out there. plus every waterbody holds its secrets

[Joeytier]

Interesting tidbit about muskie size in waters with and without pike populations. Could it just be that a waterbody productive enough to sustain both species is likely bigger, and hosts more and larger baitfish populations leading to bigger fish?

[lew]

http://www.lakescientist.com/lake-facts/fish/muskellunge/

 

 

Muskie inhabiting waters without northern pike rarely reach total lengths of more than 40 inches

 

Don't know anything about Minnesota muskies Paul but I can say absolutely that muskies here in the Kawartha Lakes region of Ontario exceed 40 inches all the time and fish up to 50" are quite common.

 

Pike have been moving into the region in recent years but I've been fishing muskies around here much longer than they've been here and can definitely guarantee the lack of pike has never held back the growth of muskies.

 

Still an interesting article though, thanks for posting it.

Edited December 5, 2014 by lew

[OhioFisherman]

 

Don't know anything about Minnesota muskies Paul but I can say absolutely that muskies here in the Kawartha Lakes region of Ontario exceed 40 inches all the time and fish up to 50" are quite common.

 

Pike have been moving into the region in recent years but I've been fishing muskies around here much longer than they've been here and can definitely guarantee the lack of pike has never held back the growth of muskies.

 

Still an interesting article though, thanks for posting it.

Obviously I know nothing about them, well except for the fact that it is a mistake to lip one! LOL It might help to understand why the Georgian Bay and St. Lawrence rivers produce monsters?

[Lunkerhunter]

Lew I would agree with you with regards to the fact that 40-50 inch fish are common in the kawarthas however if you were to look at the lakes with the potential biggest muskies they pretty well all have pike and muskie.

 

I have definetely been seeing a higher number of 40 inch + fish and many in the upper 40s in the last few years throughout the kawarthas which is nice to see

[Old Ironmaker]

Very interesting read, thanks. My limited 51% grade 13 biology leads me to the theory that larger Musky in a body of water that have Pike have DNA and the evolution to allow them to grow larger than the second fish on the food chain to maintain there top dog position in the pecking order. As well as the Musky in waters that do not have a large predator, Pike, to compete for food with do not need to grow larger.

 

Lew I never knew there wasn't Pike in your waters before I read your post. I wonder why? Combined there is a great deal of real estate under water there.

 

I looked at the Tiger Musky hanging on my wall and see it's tail is forked not rounded as the paper says they usually are. The markings are right but then again it's hand painted, I was told it was a Tiger but now I wonder. There is an old photo that will be like a needle in a haystack to find. I need to take a pic and send it to Mr. Columby and get his opinion. The pours below the jaw are covered with the filler Joe Martin used to do the mount. It was caught in 83 on Skugog, pre catch and release days. That mount looks like the day it was caught other than a small crack I see below the jaw line. Mr. Martin was the man to go to in Hamilton for a great mount. The 31 year old fish is proof.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Old Ironmaker

[lew]

 

Lew I never knew there wasn't Pike in your waters before I read your post. I wonder why? Combined there is a great deal of real estate under water there

 

The pike are moving into the region now and evidently are quite common in some of the lakes. Seems like from what I've read their moving from west to east. As I mentioned in another post yesterday I've been fishing these waters for 60 years and can say in all honesty that I have NEVER caught a pike in the Kawarthas. My fishing has always been the lakes east of Bobcaygeon so I have no experience at all west of there where the pike seem to be. Guess it's only a matter of time though till they move this way...sadly.

[Tom McCutcheon]

Perhaps I can clear up some thoughts here. I am by NO MEANS an expert but the Kawartha Lakes Chapter of Muskies Canada has been conducting research with the aid if the OMNR on the bodies of water in our Zone 17 jurisdiction for the last 6 years. We have long known that Muskies were the natural predator fish in these waters, and they have been for centuries. Prior to the installation of the lock system between Lake Ontario and Lake Simcoe, there were NO pike in the system. So for the last hundred years or so the pike have slowly been migrating past the natural barriers through the use of the locks. In the fall of 2011 a 51 inch hybrid (tiger) muskie was harvested from Balsam Lake and analysis was done on the cleithrum bone to determine age (21 years). Our research also indicates that Northern Pike have been verified in Rice Lake, the Ottonabee River, Little Lake in Peterborough as well as Cameron and Sturgeon Lakes.

We know we can not eliminate the pike from these waters, (they are here to stay now).

As Lew puts it, "just a matter of time" but we are continuing the research with hopefully a solution which will see the Kawartha Lakes have a healthy population of Muskies as well as Pike.

 

Respectfully

 

Tom McCutcheon

Chairman

Kawartha Lakes Chapter

Muskies Canada Inc.

[lew]

In the fall of 2011 a 51 inch hybrid (tiger) muskie was harvested from Balsam Lake a

 

 

I'd imagine with the tiger colors that would be one beautiful fish Tom.

[PBenson]

Makes a lot of sense when you compare it to Lake St Clair. Pike present, bigger fish, and a lot of the best musky fishing is in the deeper parts.

[landry]

I no longer fish musky on the Kawarthas but pike in there concerns me. Pike hatch earlier and could possibly prey on musky fry. I don't think it will lead to bigger muskie in a lake with perch and panfish as their food base.

I am guessing that pike populations lead to a thinner muskie population and therefor greater average size. It's true that true trophy waters usually have pike too but those same waters also ALWAYS have oily prey fish like shad, ciscos... I am sure genetics plays a part too - St Clair is a great example: the booming shad population has helped the musky's upper growth size or weight:) However, I doubt that St Clair fish are genetically capable of reaching record size.

Man I am addicted to these fish:)

[Tom McCutcheon]

It "was a beauty" Lew. The angler had a reproduction done by Advanced and he is extremely proud of it.

[Cookslav]

We know we can not eliminate the pike from these waters, (they are here to stay now).

As Lew puts it, "just a matter of time" but we are continuing the research with hopefully a solution which will see the Kawartha Lakes have a healthy population of Muskies as well as Pike.

 

 

I can tell you first hand they most certainly don't mix well in the Kawartha's even with deeper water to spawn.

I'm no expert but the Lake I'm on is a Kawartha lake (Mud Turtle) that used to have only Muskie....no Pike.

About 20 years ago the Pike started to show up....we have not seen a musky caught in our lake in over 5 years now.

The lakes deepest spots are around the 25-30' mark whcih you would think would maybe suggest there would be a deeper water spawning area for the Muskie to migrate into but it appears that is not the case.

The Pike are firmly established...

We used to catch hammerhandles like crazy...almost as common as mosqitos lol...

Now Pike in the 25-28" range are everywhere, with 30-36" fishing poping up as well.

My Buddy (Big Swede) did have a big Musky on the line last year....boatside hit in full dark that ran the drag and came off.

But thats the closest we've seen to a confirmed musky in 5 years and even then its "Possible" that was a massive 'ol Pike but I've never seen or caught a pike in full dark at 11pm on a surface plug so its our offical guess that it was a musky or samsquatch

 

But in my not so expert oppinion but rather first hand experience the Pike are here to stay...and the musky are on the way out.

Pretty sad that the Muskie have been pushed out like that, but its the reality.

The Ministry still lists Muskie as present, and I am sure there are a few bigguns mulling around, but its like a needle in hey stack scenario now, and I think once they outlive their span...they'll be done.

So I sincerely hope the ministry has a plan of sorts to halt their spread.

[Tom McCutcheon]

It is a story we are hearing more and more often. Years ago there were many muskies in, Dalrymple, Mitchel, Canal and Crowe Lakes, not so many any more and numerous hammer handle pike.

As I said, our ongoing research will hopefully have an ending where the Natural Kawartha muskie is able to learn to adapt to it's cousin.

[landry]

There is nothing the MNR can do. Pike and carp populations are unstoppable once in a system. They have tried on Western reservoirs to clear pike out and it was futile.

[outllaw]

one thing on st cl. east end and northeast corner hold pike. muskies here are predominant in open waters more. overlap is fall shad when waters cool off. key is weedbeds and the coolest water,s.after the zebra mussel expolsion in early 90,s sight feeders especially muskies exploded also. pike here took the second seat to muskies... of course marshlands eliminated resorts to less habitat.

[Tom McCutcheon]

I beg to differ. If we continue to throw our hands in the air and say it's all over for the Kawartha Muskies, then yes they are doomed. With the assistance of the OMNR, Muskies Canada and other fishing clubs and interested bodies, the research will continue

[Musky or Specks]

Interesting tidbit about muskie size in waters with and without pike populations. Could it just be that a waterbody productive enough to sustain both species is likely bigger, and hosts more and larger baitfish populations leading to bigger fish?

The answer here is genetic selection. Pike hatch 2-3 weeks earlier than musky and prey on musky fingerling when they first hatch. Musky that don't grow quickly end up as pike buffet. Over the coarse of evolution only the fastest growing largest musky where able to survive in waters which held pike. The work of Bernard Lebeau is great if your into the science. He postulates that there are two different and distinct musky species. Lacustrine(which evolved without interaction with pike) and Riverine(with pike) As far as the Kawarthas go we are talking evolution so musky co-existing with pike there will take 100's of generations before any gentic drift will happen so it might never happen.

[Musky or Specks]

The answer here is genetic selection. Pike hatch 2-3 weeks earlier than musky and prey on musky fingerling when they first hatch. Musky that don't grow quickly end up as pike buffet. Over the coarse of evolution only the fastest growing largest musky where able to survive in waters which held pike. The work of Bernard Lebeau is great if your into the science. He postulates that there are two different and distinct musky species. Lacustrine(which evolved without interaction with pike) and Riverine(with pike) As far as the Kawarthas go we are talking evolution so musky co-existing with pike there will take 100's of generations before any gentic drift will happen so it might never happen.

Edit for the same reason your wife likes to shop and you like to fish.

[outllaw]

when will mci research study be available. whats the findings after a 4 year study.

[John Bacon]

The answer here is genetic selection. Pike hatch 2-3 weeks earlier than musky and prey on musky fingerling when they first hatch. Musky that don't grow quickly end up as pike buffet. Over the coarse of evolution only the fastest growing largest musky where able to survive in waters which held pike. The work of Bernard Lebeau is great if your into the science. He postulates that there are two different and distinct musky species. Lacustrine(which evolved without interaction with pike) and Riverine(with pike) As far as the Kawarthas go we are talking evolution so musky co-existing with pike there will take 100's of generations before any gentic drift will happen so it might never happen.

 

The answer may be to stock the Kawarthas with a strain of muskie that has co-existed with pike.

[Tom McCutcheon]

Good question John and it has been discussed. I think that stocking the Kawarthas would be the very last resort. Perhaps with some brood stock of natural Kawartha fish.The MNR has that on their radar, but it's way down the road. Introducing a different strain of muskies is not the answer.

 

George, after a lot of very tough volunteer hours by MCI members and students from both Fleming College and Trent University, trying to identify the locations of where the muskies spawn, where the pike spawn and where they are overlapping in spawn locations, there are still not enough clear answers to the problem. All of our research has been carried out on Balsam Lake, so that is the lake being used as a control for further research. The locations (structure) where we have pursued our research has proved very difficult to work. I am talking numerous submerged logs, in amongst heavy Chara weed. It can be dangerous terrain to wade through where one might be walking on a solid bottom in 3' of water and all of a sudden get a foot caught in a log or tangled in muck filled weeds. After the high water spring of 2013, a number of the locations we had identified as prime spawning locations for over lapping Esocid species were destroyed. It has been a slow process, but we now have permission to use the Trent University Labs to do DNA research on water samples from the Kawartha Lakes to track the migration of pike and hybrids (similar to what is being done regarding Asian Carp migration studies). This is much more productive and less labour intensive.

It is a slow process in order to get to the solution we hope to achieve. Which is to find a way for the UNIQUE STRAIN of Kawartha Lakes Muskie to learn to coexist with the Northern Pike.

As I have said. The Pike are here and they are not going to go away.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Tom McCutcheon

[John Bacon]

I don't think that it makes sense to use the Kawartha strain for stocking.

 

If the current muskie population gets wiped out, it will be because they cannot co-exist with pike. What is the point in stocking more muskies that cannot co-exist with pike into lakes containing pike?

 

I think the Georgian Bay and/or St. Lawrence River strains would make more sense. That have the potential for a self sustaining muskie population that co-exists with pike.

[glen]

catch and keep pike and stock muskie.

Problem solved and I didn't need a ten year study.