Question for any Electricians

[Billy Bob]

My son (135 miles away) is about to put in a offer on a house built in 1947.....he has two concerns:

 

1. House has only 100 amp service

 

2. All plugs in the house are only two prong plugs (no ground)

 

He doesn't know if the house has a 3 wire system or is only serviced by two wires. If only 2 what would be the consequences if left that way and not rewired (too much money). And is a 100 amp service enough.

 

Thanks for your time,

Bob

 

Of course a house inspection is in order if this progresses that far

[brifishrgy]

what would be the consequences if left that way and not rewired (too much money). And is a 100 amp service enough.

 

 

 

he will have a very tough time getting home insurance if any at all

[Billy Bob]

he will have a very tough time getting home insurance if any at all

He's a insurance underwriter so that's not a problem.

[Whopper]

he will have a very tough time getting home insurance if any at all

Not true

 

100amp service is probably big enough, but it all depends what's in it.

[Fishnwire]

I wouldn't touch it.

 

I assume he's looking at the property because it seems like a good deal. A part of the reason for that is that what you are discribing is a bit of a problem.

 

He might be able to get insurance for it, but is he going to live there forever? What about when he goes to sell it and can't find someone else with connections in the insurance business who can do the same?

 

A dinky little service is relatively easy to upgrade, but running a ground wire or new conductor which doesn't already exist though a pre-drywall house is a nightmare, to say the least. Like a lot of younger electricians...I wouldn't even really know how to do it. Finding someone who does will not be impossible but won't be cheap.

[toca]

Tear The House Down And Rebuild It.

 

Also 100 Amp is the minimun standard now a days, If The Entire House Is Wired As Knob And Tube Or Two Wire System It Should Be Okay As Long As:

 

Its Been Untouched/Not Modified/Tampered Free. And The Plugs Are Only Two Prongs Outlets.

 

Other Than That Trying To Replace The Outlets With A Ground Goes Into A Whole Different Story.

[Billy Bob]

I don't have much more info on the house because like I said he's far away....all I know is from what he's told me and the pictures I have seen on the internet....not much to go on.....but I'm told it's a one owner house and it's in EXCELLENT shape but dated.

 

Insurance is NOT a problem here in NYS unlike it might be in Ontario....

[Headhunter]

BB, I sold a house about 4 years ago, that was 50% three wire grounded and 50% knob and tube.

The service had been ugraded, so it was a bigger board then 100amps.

In order secure insurance (I know this is not your question) my real estate agent connected me to a house inspector, who was affiliated with an insurance company. In order to get the clearance from the inspector and in turn guarrantee insurance coverage, I was told to change out all of the two pronged recepticles to GFI's.

It cost me close to $200.00 to do it myself and the house was certified as being insurable. That made a huge difference to perspective buyers, when they walked through the home and saw the certification on the dinning room table.

Upgrading a home to three wire would be extremely cost prohibative... espcially if the house is plaster lathe as opposed to dry wall. And given that almost everything we buy that runs on electricity has the grounding plug, I would be somewhat hesitant to plug anything in, without a GFI.

HH

[Billy Bob]

EVERYONE.....thanks for all your responses....I can do just about anything involving home repair, etc.....but I'm afraid of electric but will do small jobs like changing out a plug or switch, etc....as long as I have the power off in that circuit.

 

With that said, I have a couple more questions...

 

What do you mean you say knob and tube....I have never heard that term before.

 

Also HH...if possible explain briefly what you had to do to add GFI plugs in that home.

 

The house in question is a cape cod so wiring the upstairs could be very hard and expensive.

 

Thanks for your time,

Bob

[Headhunter]

BB... I just purchased a number of Ground Fault Interupters (GFI) and replaced the existing receptacles (two prong) with them.

The theory behind the GFI's was that should a short happen, the GFI's would pop, before the breaker would pop.Knob and tube is two wire that is run discreetly from each other and is run through ceramic "tubes" through joices and attached to whatever, using ceramic "knobs".

It is old wiring used in many older homes.

HH

Edited March 7, 2011 by Headhunter

[Whopper]

Billy Bob I have a 1900SQ ft two story house, gas heat, gas hot water, 3ton 16SER AC unit, electric range, electric dryer along with all the bells and whistles of a modern home and I have a 100amp service. Been at my current location for over 23years and never had a problem period. Besides everything in my house I have three 20amp 120volt dedicated circuits just for Christmas lights (I tend to get carried away )and just for kicks a few years back during the holidays while the wife was cooking Christmas dinner, the dryer going, most of the lights on, a couple of TV's going and all my Christmas lights on I put an amp meter on my incoming service and I was drawing less than 70amp a leg. So unless the house your son is looking at has electric heat he should be golden.

As you said with minimal info you have this is my best guess.

If Insurance companies wouldn't insure homes with 100amp services most of the homes in my area would not be insured.

RETodd is correct about the two prong plugs, as long as they have not be altered to grounded outlets the home inspector shouldn't say anything about them. Take a look around your house to see exactly how many things are plugged in that have three wire (grounded) cords

Edited March 7, 2011 by Whopper

[Billy Bob]

So if the house is only 2 wire system and has only 2 wire recepticals how does one plug in 3 plug items, like a washer and drier, etc..????

[Headhunter]

So if the house is only 2 wire system and has only 2 wire recepticals how does one plug in 3 plug items, like a washer and drier, etc..????

BB, the washer runs off of a standard outlet... the dryer requires it's own circuit, breaker and 220 hook up.

HH

 

Edit... I would be concerned about a washer that was not grounded (three prong) as water and electricity don't mix well... ok, they really like each other, but do not play well with others.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Headhunter

[OhioFisherman]

EVERYONE.....thanks for all your responses....I can do just about anything involving home repair, etc.....but I'm afraid of electric but will do small jobs like changing out a plug or switch, etc....as long as I have the power off in that circuit.

 

With that said, I have a couple more questions...

 

What do you mean you say knob and tube....I have never heard that term before.

 

Also HH...if possible explain briefly what you had to do to add GFI plugs in that home.

 

The house in question is a cape cod so wiring the upstairs could be very hard and expensive.

 

Thanks for your time,

Bob

 

The knob and tube was the way they wired old homes, back in the days before romex. I think they stopped using it in the 60`s in some areas?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob_and_tube_wiring

[taper]

I am not an electrician but this is the little that I know about it. A lot of old electricians will tell you that knob and tube was one of the safest systems out there due to the fact that the hot and neutral wires run completely separate from each other until the last few feet before a switch or plug. That being said two years ago my insurance company did an evaluation of my home and wanted to recommend changes (house is 150 years old). The knob and tube was high on the hit list. At the time it was just a recommendation but was told from my agent a lot of insurers were jacking up rates or refusing to insure homes with major issues. The outer coating on some of this old wiring can become very dry and brittle and flake off easily if disturbed. Hope this helps.

[Banger68]

The grounds on the receptacles is a safety device to prevent users from getting electocuted from faulty devices. You can add 3 prong receptacles without the ground and the socket will work.

 

There is no use installing GFI's without ground conductors.

[Billy Bob]

the dryer requires it's own circuit, breaker and 220 hook up.

HH

 

85-90% of dryers here heat with natural gas so that's not really a concern...

 

It's my son Billy's birthday and he hopes he going to buy a house today but he's still trying to sort out this electrical concern....of course he's working and had the real estate agent (not the best choice) trying to find out all his concerns before he and his fiancée move forward....

 

I really want to say THANK YOU for all your help....just hoping this works out for my son as they have been in the market for several months now and this house is one they like without breaking the bank.

 

Bob

[aplumma]

I would get an electrician to give them an estimate to do a 200 amp box and a price to update the boxes for future budget. My house has over 100 amps just in the garage and 200 amp for the house. While abnormal (200 is normal here in the US) it is very handy when you add on to the house or a new hobby comes up.

 

 

Art

[Fishnwire]

The ground allows a path for current to travel should a live conductor come in contact with any metallic non-current carrying part of the installation, like an electrical junction box, metallic cable jacketing, or the surface of your stove. Instead of it sitting there "hot", waiting for you to come in contact with it and get a shock, a short circuit condition is briefly created which is interrupted by your breaker or fuse at the panel.

-

Say a live wire came loose or was frayed where it enters your dishwasher and is now directly connected to the metal housing of the appliance. Without a ground wire, there is no where for the current to travel and the metal exterior of the dishwasher becomes "live"...it has the same potential as the conductors that serve it. As soon as you touch it, you complete the path to ground and get a shock. With the ground wire, as soon as the live conductor comes in contact with the dishwasher (which is electrically bonded to ground) a "short to ground" is created which causes an over-current protection device (breaker) to trip. Until that path to ground is cleared (you remove the live wire from contact with the dishwasher) the breaker will not reset.

 

The breaker does not actually protect you. The smallest one you will likely have in your panel is 15 amps. You would be long dead before that thing trips. The breaker protects the conductors from allowing them to pass an amount of current that would damage them, and alerts you to the presence of (and prevents damage to the circuit from) a short, either phase to ground or phase to phase.

-

A GFCI works by monitoring the current flow on each of the conductors (live and neutral) and trips if it detects an imbalance. The idea being if fewer milliamps are on the return conductor they must be leaking to ground somewhere. I can't see why you would need a ground wire. GFCIs trip when they detect a fault of 4-6 milliamps...that's 4 to 6 thousandths of an amp. Several thousand times less than the breakers in your panel. You will sometimes get "nuisance trips" which means you shouldn't plug anything like a fridge or freezer into them.

-

I wish I understood fishing as well as I do the concept of a ground wire. How did my priorities get so screwed up?

[Billy Bob]

The ground allows a path for current to travel should a live conductor come in contact with any metallic non-current carrying part of the installation, like an electrical junction box, metallic cable jacketing, or the surface of your stove. Instead of it sitting there "hot", waiting for you to come in contact with it and get a shock, a short circuit condition is briefly created which is interrupted by your breaker or fuse at the panel.

-

Say a live wire came loose or was frayed where it enters your dishwasher and is now directly connected to the metal housing of the appliance. Without a ground wire, there is no where for the current to travel and the metal exterior of the dishwasher becomes "live"...it has the same potential as the conductors that serve it. As soon as you touch it, you complete the path to ground and get a shock. With the ground wire, as soon as the live conductor comes in contact with the dishwasher (which is electrically bonded to ground) a "short to ground" is created which causes an over-current protection device (breaker) to trip. Until that path to ground is cleared (you remove the live wire from contact with the dishwasher) the breaker will not reset.

 

The breaker does not actually protect you. The smallest one you will likely have in your panel is 15 amps. You would be long dead before that thing trips. The breaker protects the conductors from allowing them to pass an amount of current that would damage them, and alerts you to the presence of (and prevents damage to the circuit from) a short, either phase to ground or phase to phase.

-

A GFCI works by monitoring the current flow on each of the conductors (live and neutral) and trips if it detects an imbalance. The idea being if fewer milliamps are on the return conductor they must be leaking to ground somewhere. I can't see why you would need a ground wire. GFCIs trip when they detect a fault of 4-6 milliamps...that's 4 to 6 thousandths of an amp. Several thousand times less than the breakers in your panel. You will sometimes get "nuisance trips" which means you shouldn't plug anything like a fridge or freezer into them.

-

I wish I understood fishing as well as I do the concept of a ground wire. How did my priorities get so screwed up?

 

WOW, I can actually say I learned something by reading this.....THANKS

[bucketmouthjohnny]

As a master electrician (licensed in ontario), i can assure you 100 amp is plenty of power for most homes under say, 1,800 sq. feet but the sq footage isn't the barometer, use is. If you have a hot tub o/s that sucks 50-60 amps,or electric furnace(you would already have a 200 amp) you better upgrade, if not, an electric stove/dryer etc will all work properly on a 100 amp service.If you have electric baseboards that were wired in later (if wired in at time, there would have been a calculation done to assure enough power at service), you might need to get an electrician in to make sure you are not overdrawing, i mean, the main breaker would trip if this was the case though.If you have a tripping main, you better upgrade.

The easiest/safest and to the ontario electrical code to change all outlets to 3 prong receptacles is:

 

Replace all breakers, other than your 220 volt ones (only use this gfci for 220 volt where water is present, hot tub), with GFCI breakers. The neutral will trip the gfi breaker on any short. People, do not forget, the neutral is bonded with the ground.Is it better to have a separate ground? Yes, but not necessary according to Ontario code.

 

another method is to :(not the prettiest)

 

Take all your 110 volt wires out of the panel box and rewire each one into a utility box,(iberville 1110 box), mount the box close to the panel, now rewire a new 14/2 to each utility box containing each ungrounded wire from the panel. Get however many GFCI receptacles you need, make sure the black/white wires from the panel go on the LINE side of the gfi screws, and the ungrounded black/white go on the load side. Now you can swap out all your 2 prong receptacles with 3 prongs and you will still be safe.

 

one more method, is to find the start of the circuit in a receptacle for each circuit. Swap out that plug with a gfi , connecting line and load wires as mentioned above, than you can replace all other outlets on that circuit with 3 prongs. This method would be the hardest to figure out for most homeowners and if it is knob and tube, forget it.

 

Personally, i would go buy the GFCI breakers and do that, it looks much more professional and neater and might cost you over double (depending on make of paneland how many circuits) of what it would to do it the second way.But the time consumption is minimal, maybe an hour and a bit to swap out the breakers.

 

ps, you could run 14 (you might be able too use 16 as well, i don't use this method) guage green coloured wires to all your outlet boxes and tie them in at the panel or to the ground wire with approved clamps.

It all comes down to accessibility, cost , but you CAN have a safe electrical system with two wires following these methods.

Good luck !!

 

John

[Billy Bob]

Wow, another lesson in electric....THANK YOU VERY MUCH....

 

Bob

[smally21]

you haven't said that the house has knob and tube (though it is most likely) could be it just has cloth wiring. as you have mentioned ontario is not the US but a full rewire would be in order if this house was to be sold in ontario. just for laughs some numbers from average licensed guys in my area

 

panel upgrade (im assuming glass breakers) is about 1500

 

to rewire is a low of 120 a device to a high of 250 a device, so at 50 devices 6000-1000

 

not to mention any holes in the walls, floors will be extra

 

what is safe, what is insurable, what is legal? i dont think is the issue, its more that 70 year old wiring is going to be a constant problem and someone is going to have to change it eventually. everything you try to add, customize, renovate will be a pain.

 

good luck whatever you decide

[blaque]

BOING!!! The springs in my brain just unraveled lol

 

Im much like you BB, i can build you a house from the ground up.......but when it came to wiring it, wouldnt even know where to start.

 

Never could grasp the electrical mind

[bucketmouthjohnny]

Smally, that panel upgrade price,$1,500, i think that is for a 60 amp to 100 amp service change, incl. panel and 20 breakers. We charge around 1,200,upwards of 2,000 for 200 amp, depending overhead/underground and some other variables. If that's for a straight panel change, WOW, i better get up to the Hammer for some business!! That's some good coin for less than a day's work!!

A straight panel change from fuses to breakers , with a permit and inspection is around $850 incl, 20 breakers, any more breakers needed is extra. Don't forget the HST!!!!

We do like making holes you'll need to account for a mudder most likley.

If it is Knob/tube, you should gut the drywall, at least on o/s walls and change everything, this will cut down electrical bill a little and add a drywall/tape/paint/insulation... it is probably not insulated well on o/s walls as is.Don't know if you guys have enrgy audits ? For the few plugs on inside walls , they can be fished in possibly from attic/or underneath, depending on style of house with minimal holes.

 

As far as NY state insurance? No clue ? I have been in some houses in buffalo area(friends/family) and one still had a 35 amp service, but was just experiencing problems recently.I told her she needed to get a NY electrician to change service and gave her ballpark figure what would be a fair price. Or, get a gas oven, not sure which way she went