hammercarp Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 As long as the hunters/trappers use the pelts i'm all for it. But i do gotta laugh a little when hunters say that without them the population for (enter animals name here) will explode if they don't hunt them. Cause lets face it, if you left'em alone nature will eventually reach an equilibrium. Just like it has for thousands of years. But that being said, people DO and WILL ALWAYS hunt (which i am all for by the way). so by all means use it for population control. Its another variable to the equation that has to be considered. Another thing to consider, they were here way before us. We're pushin them, naturally they're gonna push back when they're against the wall. Put yourself on a raft in the middle of the ocean for 3 days with nothing but Fluffy the cat with ya... he'll start lookin mighty apetizing Happy hunting lads and ladies I don't believe that. The millions of plants and animals that have gone extinct ( even before we came on the scene) are proof that, there is no such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 (edited) Here's the thing, I live in the Niagara region where these animals are nusances to the farmers around me. The year I moved in here within a kilometer of my house 3 dogs were lost to coyotes in that summer. Last year the house behind me on the next road over lost their dog to a coyote. A farmer I help out often figures he loses 10% of his crop and several calves each year to coyotes. I have permission to shoot deer, racoons, coyotes as well as an assortment of birds. He's a beef farmer and grows field corn for the cattle. This year he planted over an acre of sweet corn for human consumption and the racoons cleaned out the entire acre of sweet corn. The deer and birds eat his grapes, soy, corn, etc. For him, the hunting is pest control. His beef and the food for them is paramount. If I take a deer in the corn or soy fields we eat it, if I take migratory birds in the corn fields, we eat them. If I take a coyote or racoon they go into the manure pile. I pay for all the permits required for him to dispose of pest animals and it works out for all of us. We all get meat, I get a good oppurtunity to hunt and he loses less crop/livestock. Until any of you who have lived in a city all your life understand the point of view from farmers, who grow the food you eat, you guys really have no legs to stand on when it comes to shooting animals that are not for table fare. Edited December 27, 2009 by anonymous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smally21 Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 forgive me if this is the wrong thread what are the rules and/or accepted practises for farmers/landowners to shoot pests on their land? hopefully facts not opinions....do they require licences, or need toobserve seasons, etc. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanselena Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Here's the thing, I live in the Niagara region where these animals are nusances to the farmers around me. The year I moved in here within a kilometer of my house 3 dogs were lost to coyotes in that summer. Last year the house behind me on the next road over lost their dog to a coyote. A farmer I help out often figures he loses 10% of his crop and several calves each year to coyotes. I have permission to shoot deer, racoons, coyotes as well as an assortment of birds. He's a beef farmer and grows field corn for the cattle. This year he planted over an acre of sweet corn for human consumption and the racoons cleaned out the entire acre of sweet corn. The deer and birds eat his grapes, soy, corn, etc. For him, the hunting is pest control. His beef and the food for them is paramount. If I take a deer in the corn or soy fields we eat it, if I take migratory birds in the corn fields, we eat them. If I take a coyote or racoon they go into the manure pile. I pay for all the permits required for him to dispose of pest animals and it works out for all of us. We all get meat, I get a good oppurtunity to hunt and he loses less crop/livestock. Until any of you who have lived in a city all your life understand the point of view from farmers, who grow the food you eat, you guys really have no legs to stand on when it comes to shooting animals that are not for table fare. Very well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cram Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 tell that to the groups of guys who take 100+ yotes every winter with dogs. how about those hunters who are really into yote hunting and take dozens every year? maybe the trappers across ontario who take thousands every winter might have an impact? your average hunter who gets out a few times each season will have no impact on yote populations, but serious hunters, those who run dogs, and trappers help to keep the populations in check. if we all just stopped killing yotes today the population would skyrocket for a while until there is not enough food left or disease kills them off before the numbers started decreasing. the numbers of wildlife would go down while livestock predation would rise. They probably do more damage than good. When coyote populations are pressured by predation or hunting the ones left over have larger litters. They are kind of unique that way. You start with 10, kill 3, and the 7 left over will have more pups than they would have if there were still 10. I don't know what the answer is, but its not hunting. And as those of you who know me will sa, i am not anti-hunting at all. I am against killing coyotes just for fun, or because they eat your deer. I know a lot of people who kill every northern pike or musky they catch because "they eat the walleye". To me seems just as stupid, only with coyotes its self-defeating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cram Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Come on. If thousands of hunters hunted coyotes exclusively for two weeks a year like they do for deer it would definately have an impact on their population. Especially if it were timed to have maximum impact. I have another question to those that have suggested that you can cause them to move if you cut off their food supply. There is no place for them to move to when their population is so high. They will seek out new sources of food. Maybe. WHy not just vaccinate somehow so that their breeding is less effective. Also, the urban coyotes and rural coyotes are completely different beasts......how does a hunting season in the bush control the coyote problem around your house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cram Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Maybe. I don't know of any control-by-hunting programs that have worked though. Also, the urban coyotes and rural coyotes are completely different beasts......how does a hunting season in the bush control the coyote problem around your house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocoda Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 forgive me if this is the wrong thread what are the rules and/or accepted practises for farmers/landowners to shoot pests on their land? hopefully facts not opinions....do they require licences, or need toobserve seasons, etc. thanks If a farmers livestock is threatened he can shoot and kill animals at any time of year this includes the neighbors dog ...there are permits however for animals /birds that do not threaten the livestock but do threaten their food such as deer/canadian geese etc. The permit is issued to the farmer on a yearly basis (if he applies) and is called a scare permit...means he can unload @ them but not to kill unless its open season Most farmers all have licenses for the certain game during a certain season but more importantly they pay for their varmint permit to protect their livelihood so that they can produce tablefare.... If you ate today ...thank a farmer for raising disease free table fare...personally i have tried almost every type of wild food there is to consume through different fund raisers @ gun clubs and ill NEVER have raccoon/yote on any table that i eat at ....but i would kill every single coon that found its way into our corn storage or barns ....the need to kill a yote has never arisen for me but has for many friends...so be it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammercarp Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Maybe. WHy not just vaccinate somehow so that their breeding is less effective. Also, the urban coyotes and rural coyotes are completely different beasts......how does a hunting season in the bush control the coyote problem around your house? Coyotes respond to an abundance of food by having larger litters not as a result of being hunted. I don't believe there is any difference between urban and rural coyotes. Urban coyotes are simply there because of increasing human and increasing coyote populations. Last years rural coyote is this years urban coyote. If you reduce the coyote population in rural areas there will less to become urban coyotes. Less coyotes is less coyotes. For people that scoffed at the thought of coyotes attacking humans. You are wrong, as stated they killed a young girl on the east coast and there are growing reports of people being confronted by them.If they don't fear people it wont be long before they start treating people as prey. In answer to the question about land owners shooting animals that are damaging their property or livestock. You can go to the ministry and if you show them proof of that. They will issue you a permit to kill a number of those animals. You do not need a hunting license for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cram Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Coyotes respond to an abundance of food by having larger litters not as a result of being hunted. I don't believe there is any difference between urban and rural coyotes. Urban coyotes are simply there because of increasing human and increasing coyote populations. Last years rural coyote is this years urban coyote. If you reduce the coyote population in rural areas there will less to become urban coyotes. Less coyotes is less coyotes. For people that scoffed at the thought of coyotes attacking humans. You are wrong, as stated they killed a young girl on the east coast and there are growing reports of people being confronted by them.If they don't fear people it wont be long before they start treating people as prey. In answer to the question about land owners shooting animals that are damaging their property or livestock. You can go to the ministry and if you show them proof of that. They will issue you a permit to kill a number of those animals. You do not need a hunting license for this. Do some reading, Hammercarp. A simple google search will likely do. I think you'll find... - the#1 factor in determining coyote pop is food supply (you're right). - coyotes pops respond to hunting/predation pressure by having larger litters. (i think its funny that you state this to be wrong....its pretty simple stuff that's widely known/accepted). - urban and rural coyotes are different in a lot of ways (solitary vs packs, nocturnal vs. hunting during the day, etc) but the most important factor is that you can't really go hunting for urban coyotes. Even if you killed every coyote in the bush, there'd still be lots around the cities. They are established here, and growing in pop regardless of what hunters do in the bush. - attacks on humans are remarkably rare. You likley have a greater chance of catching salmonella from a snapping turtle than you do of getting attacked by a coyote. They do kill a lot of pets and livestock though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocoda Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 (edited) to be honest im thinking i am going to make a a bucktail out his tail i already have a fox taill dried out i just need 2rs to makes it back to Ontario so he can make them up for me.... And i could write a whole list of problems about why to many coyotes is an issue.. Just think about how much you love your cat.. lol you can tan that tail yourself....methyle hydrate ( wood alcohol) and turpintine mixture...i cant remember the ratio though .....stir once everyday for 7 days..i use to do my own for fly tying purposes tails.. masks... elk necks...etc i even tried to do 5 full hides in a garbage pail ....it actually worked but the scudding was way too labour intensified as the hides were going to be used for crafts...dyeing them was a battle though Edited December 27, 2009 by Twocoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smally21 Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 thanks twocoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoz Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Too bad the coyotes haven't figured out how to catch cormorants, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadadude Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Cotton tail rabbits are on the high end of the cycle now which puts the coyote population on the high end of the cycle. When the rabbit cycle crashes so will the coyote, unhealthy starving coyotes won't produce large litters and the population will drop. It's like the Black Bear population and the amount of berries available in the summer, if the mother dosn't gain enough weight in the summer she won't reproduce in the winter. This being said with the bonanza berry crop this past summer there should be a high population of cubs come this spring. As for hunting coyotes I don't kill them, but I really could careless if others hunt them, they can be a real nusiance animal in alot of cases. I think if left alone mother nature will control the populations and the high population of coyotes we see today may turn to a very scarce population in a few years, this is the way populations have gone forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I am against killing coyotes just for fun, or because they eat your deer. So let me get this straight....it's ok to hate on people that hunt coyotes for fun, and then turn around and go fishing, impaling God's little creatures on razor sharp hooks, fighting them to exhaustion and then holding them up for the prize photo.....all in the name of fun. Pretty hypocritical in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave524 Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I too, grew up in Niagara. My experience farming, hunting and as a naturalist go back to the fifties, my dad an avid hunter go back further. During the 50's and early 60's, reports of coyotes or as they were reported then, brush wolves, were about like the cougar reports of today. They were almost non existent. Deer populations then were but a fraction of what they are today, same with Canada Geese, resident Mallard populations were a fraction of today. Possums even were a rarity, though they seemed to spike in population in the 80's and now levelled off. On the other hand, populations of Ruffed Grouse, Woodcock and Ringedneck Pheasants in Niagara have plummetted. Controlled hunter number shotgun deer hunts in WMU 89 did not start till the mid 70's, when the population could support it. I tramped the countryside extensively during my teens from my parents house in Pelham Township, the same woodlots now have deer and coyotes were there was none back then. The increase in the deer, coyote and Canada Goose population in Niagara probably surpasses the increase in human population in the past 50 or so years. Even beavers are returning to Niagara, so much has changed in my years. The biggest change, is the in the behaviour of the animals themselves, far bolder, little fear of man. This combined with expanding human population into previously open areas and the increase in the population of deer, goose and coyote at the same time has created today's problem. The coyote explosion is very similar to the cormorant explosion, historically they may always have been here, but never in the numbers of today. I bet some of those who question the ethics of those hunting coyotes would be first in line calling for a cull of cormorants when they decimate the fish stocks of one of their favourite lakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtis Posted December 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 well said.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oxcowboy Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 (edited) As a livestock producer i will take as many of them off my farm as i possibly can. Maybe it wont affect the populations much, but it also may help in conditioning them to the fact that it isnt a safe area for them to come and grab a quick meal(baby goat, or calf). If they watch there pack numbers dwindle everytime they hear a boom maybe they will look elsewhere. Also how many of you that are against the hunting of coyotes would hunt cormorants? If you would, would you eat everyone of them that you killed? Jason Edited December 27, 2009 by oxcowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricoboxing Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I blasted my first coyote last week, and hope to shoot some more this week. Some people will never understand why we shoot coyotes and crows, just like some people just don't understand why we find so thrilling to catch a big musky, take a picture of it and toss it back in the water. I love doing both and will continue to do so as long as they are legal, so have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cram Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Too bad the coyotes haven't figured out how to catch cormorants, eh? haha...yeah, we wish. They do eat canada geese though. Anyone who lives by the big lake probably appreciates that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cram Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 (edited) So let me get this straight....it's ok to hate on people that hunt coyotes for fun, and then turn around and go fishing, impaling God's little creatures on razor sharp hooks, fighting them to exhaustion and then holding them up for the prize photo.....all in the name of fun. Pretty hypocritical in my opinion. maybe its hypocritical but to me a coyote may be a nuisance but its a pretty intelligent and mentally/socially complex animal. No different from your dog....maybe more intelligent, actually. i don't blame farmers who shoot them....that's different. Same with shooting those who come to your property to lure your pets away. I just think roaming the countryside looking to shoot wild dogs under the rationale that it helps control the population is either ill informed or just kind of mean. Edited December 27, 2009 by cram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dara Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I wouldn't say I shoot them to control the population Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch312 Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 This is the most sensible post I have ever read from ch312. If only he wrote sensible posts like this over on CGN he wouldn't be one of the laughing stock. hmmm...you must be corey? the other board is totally different than this one as you can see. CGN is a gun/hunting forum where there is mainly a fishing forum so there are totally different people at each. its fun toying with people over there (you... ) while things are usually more serious on this forum. gotta tone things down a bit for this site which contains many lieberals... you likely saw that thread on CGN about someone crying that the yotes are eating all the deer and everyone was against me because some senile old timer and his buddies started spewing their filth. now go over to OOD forums where the same topic came up. most there agree with the exact same points i made over on CGN. forums are weird that way...if one "credible" member states something, his ignorant buddies feel like they are obligated to follow suit whether its true or not. in person i am one of the nicest and polite guys you'll meet and i am more than willing to go on a hunt with anyone ive had arguments with on the intraweb. the internet is for entertainment I just think roaming the countryside looking to shoot wild dogs under the rationale that it helps control the population is either ill informed or just kind of mean. well that sums it up right there as to the type of person you are. ANYONE who calls coyote hunting mean automatically loses all credibility in a coyote hunting debate. you are trying to educate hunters when you have no "hands on" experience with yotes...kinda like a gun hating liberal trying to teach me about firearms. you can read all you want but it doesnt mean squat. how about you go talk to some people who have lost their dogs, cats, calves, chickens, etc to yotes and then we'll talk. your argument that hunting yotes will somehow result in higher populations is ridiculous. their populations are mainly determined by habitat and FOOD. they will not start producing more offspring unless the food is there to support them. exactly how many years have you spent in the bush to backup your statements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookslav Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 To be honest the Anti Coyote-hunting thought proccess here is actually a bit disturbing to me.... Its no different then fishing in many ways when you sit and think about it. People catch salmon and strip them of roe with no intention of eating them...sure Salmon are at the end of their life cycle but the point is they are caught for fun, and not consumed. People catch gobies snap their backs and toss them on shore with no intention of eating them....sure they are an invasive species, but in truth as far as being a population control argument its even less effective then say shooting coyotes as population control right? People catch Pickerel or Whitefish from 40+ feet and then release them knowing they are more then likely already toast...those ethics are worse if you ask me We as angler impale live bait fish to lure bigger fish by the dozens...ten time over in a season for some of us. I guess the point I'm getting at is you can't put a value on one creatures life over the other, unless your playing favorites... I beleive that enjoying a tradition passed down through the generations is ethical. I beleive that participating in what I consider a population controlling effort(no matter how small) is ethical. In saying that I also belive that not harvesting, or attempting to make use of the animal is very backwards to the traditional sport that has been handed down to us. I also believe it is vital that We ethical hunters/fisherman stick together and support each other even if its not your cup of tea. Because uneducated anti's and educated anti's alike would love this kind of discussion to be made public as propiganda to leverage a ban on Coyote hunting alltogether...then how long until fishing is in their sights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehg Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I blasted my first coyote last week, and hope to shoot some more this week. Some people will never understand why we shoot coyotes and crows, just like some people just don't understand why we find so thrilling to catch a big musky, take a picture of it and toss it back in the water. This is OFC meaning ontario FISHING network with a big slant towards catch and release. Can you catch and release a coyote after shooting it dead? Is this a hunting forum? Kill, Kill, Kill, shoot a gun Kill, Kill, Kill. Shoot to thrill, waste them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts