To John F, Stratford

[Jonny]

Yes they live a simpler life with positive attitudes....

But unless you truly believe that such a narrow minded existence is the right one in this day and age then those kids are getting the short end of lifes stick.

 

You have mixed praise and criticism here.

 

They raise their children to be devout, devoted to family, hard-working, and sober in thought and action. I'd say that probably qualifies them to be good citizens, even if we ourselves would not like to live that lifestyle.

 

EDIT - spelling

Edited June 3, 2009 by Jocko Point Jonny

[Toronto_Angler]

hmmm...I love how people assume that they don't have licences

Edited June 3, 2009 by toronto_angler

[solopaddler]

You have mixed praise and criticism here.

 

Of course I do.

It's impossible to be entirely critical of anyone with those kinds of morals and values.

As mentioned however it's a narrow minded existence, one which limits opportunity...and I mean opportunity in the broadest sense.

Personally I see that as a pretty big negative in this day and age.

Would you want your child raised in that type of environment? If yes then fire away.

 

I've seen a lot in my time. From the heartbreaking poverty when I lived in Manila to the desperation in the eyes of the youth in the remote native communities of our far north.

Why is it that per capita the suicide rate is off the charts among youth in those remote native communities?

 

I believe that you can take a lot of good things from the way those people live, but nothing that extreme can be good.

There's got to be a happy medium.

[Jonny]

Would I want my children raised that way? If I was Mennonite - yes!

 

Why is it that per capita the suicide rate is off the charts among youth in those remote native communities?

 

Precisely because they are yearning for something they can't have. Mennonite youth, if they were to yearn for it, can. But if the communities are growing (as they are), maybe the youth are content with the lives they have been nurtured in. What price that satisfaction?

 

I think you assume that everyone has to have the opportunity to reach out for the modern world. If you're living close to the land, maybe that's a desire that's best left to those who havve been raised to want it. I don't see Mennonnites stunted by their lifestyle. It's not one I would choose for myself, but they seem happy enough leading a simpler life. If you're happy, and you're not encroaching on your neighbours, what else matters?

[solopaddler]

Would I want my children raised that way? If I was Mennonite - yes!

 

Each to their own.

 

 

 

Precisely because they are yearning for something they can't have.

 

I know that you're exactly right. Perhaps my point wasn't clear.

 

 

 

 

I think you assume that everyone has to have the opportunity to reach out for the modern world.

 

No....just to have the chance to decide for themselves how and what to do with their lives.

The young in those communities are so innured to the Mennonite/Amish way of living most never change.

 

 

 

 

If you're living close to the land, maybe that's a desire that's best left to those who havve been raised to want it.

 

I myself have lived literally years in the bush.....alone....living as simple a life as humanly possible. I can understand the beauty and simplicity of it. The difference between someone like myself and them I did it of my own free will.

 

 

I don't see Mennonnites stunted by their lifestyle.

 

I do.

 

It's not one I would choose for myself

 

I think you're contradicting yourself now.

 

but they seem happy enough leading a simpler life. If you're happy, and you're not encroaching on your neighbours, what else matters?

 

Well you know what they say, ignorance is bliss.

 

 

 

You can't possibly deny the fact that their lifestyle choice is narrowminded.

[solopaddler]

And just to add and hopefully end my part in this interesting debate...

 

I don't really care.

 

I do feel sorry for the young, but live and let live.

 

As far as I'm concerned they can churn out as many blanket boxes and jars of apple butter as they want.

 

[HTHM]

Don't agree at all.

I was raised by my parents to believe that I could do anything if I put my mind to it, that the world was my oyster and to have a broad and open mind.

These people may be some of the nicest around but broad and open minded they're not.

That their teens are given the choice of another life is commendable, but frankly too little too late.

That would be akin to uprooting your own new age teen and saying "How's about you try living like a pioneer for a while, perhaps you'd like to live your life that way?"

In most cases that 'aint gonna happen.

Peoples morals ideals and personalities are already entrenched by that late age...

 

Yes they live a simpler life with positive attitudes....

But unless you truly believe that such a narrow minded existence is the right one in this day and age then those kids are getting the short end of lifes stick.

 

But then that's just one mans opinion.

By virtue of your initial statement you do agree, " I was raised by my parents to believe that I could do anything if I put my mind to it, that the world was my oyster and to have a broad and open mind" .

This community is raising their children as they feel they should, just as I am, and just as you are. Your parents raised you as they saw fit, if they were Mennonite we would not be having this conversation.

[Burtess]

I've got to put my $0.02 in here as well I suppose....

 

For you that think they live a very simple life with no electricity, treat the environment with respect, etc... , it doesn't always work that way.

 

They are allowed to use electricity as long as they are not plugged into the "grid". They use massive diesel generators to power their industrial businesses (powder coaters, fencing manufacturers, metal finishers, etc. etc.). This mode of electrical generation is MUCH more environmentally harmful than hooking up to the grid.

 

One even wanted to dump his waste cleaner solutions into his 180,000 litre manure pit and spread it on his fields. When I explained that this was illegal, and that after he spread that on his fields and his family ate the vegetables and cattle that grazed there, that they would be ingesting the pollutants as well, he thought I was nuts. After sending him written notification strongly suggesting he not do it, he said he would not. Don't know where that cleaner went though......

 

So there are the bad seeds in their community just like in ours, bad stuff does happen...

 

Burt

[misfish]

Dang, they make some fine sausage though, don't they! And I've heard great things about their funiture as well!

As much as I beleive in equal treatment for all, I don't think pursuing these folks has anybody's interest. I say leave 'em alone.

HH

 

 

[solopaddler]

By virtue of your initial statement you do agree, " I was raised by my parents to believe that I could do anything if I put my mind to it, that the world was my oyster and to have a broad and open mind" .

This community is raising their children as they feel they should, just as I am, and just as you are. Your parents raised you as they saw fit, if they were Mennonite we would not be having this conversation.

 

You know what? Maybe we should continue this conversation in person.

 

You do realize I'm exactly 988m from your front door at the moment? LOL!

 

(I work in the control tower at the airport, see your truck in the driveway everyday on my way to work. Seriously I've been meaning to stop and say hi, but I'm usually passing through either really early or really late. )

[big guy]

I've got to put my $0.02 in here as well I suppose....

 

For you that think they live a very simple life with no electricity, treat the environment with respect, etc... , it doesn't always work that way.

 

They are allowed to use electricity as long as they are not plugged into the "grid". They use massive diesel generators to power their industrial businesses (powder coaters, fencing manufacturers, metal finishers, etc. etc.). This mode of electrical generation is MUCH more environmentally harmful than hooking up to the grid.

 

One even wanted to dump his waste cleaner solutions into his 180,000 litre manure pit and spread it on his fields. When I explained that this was illegal, and that after he spread that on his fields and his family ate the vegetables and cattle that grazed there, that they would be ingesting the pollutants as well, he thought I was nuts. After sending him written notification strongly suggesting he not do it, he said he would not. Don't know where that cleaner went though......

 

So there are the bad seeds in their community just like in ours, bad stuff does happen...

 

Burt

 

Yep, all the ones around here that have businesses all have power. Farms the have diaries and creameries all have to regulated by the government and inspected, they all have power. But yet they will buy a farm that already has a house on it and strip the house of all electrical and plumbing.

 

One of the funniest things I ever saw was at the place they manufactured their sheet metal, they build buildings, sheds, roofing steel there etc. Here is a great big building with power running to it and behind the house sat a radial arm saw with a little Honda gas motor attached to it. Made me scratch my head.

 

The big thing with them is that they don't want to rely on the "outside" world for anything, but yet they still have to buy their fuel

[Jonny]

No....just to have the chance to decide for themselves how and what to do with their lives.

The young in those communities are so innured to the Mennonite/Amish way of living most never change.

 

Oh for all of us to be free of our parents' and society's expectations! In the microcosm of Mennonite society do you really think things are any different?

 

I myself have lived literally years in the bush.....alone....living as simple a life as humanly possible. I can understand the beauty and simplicity of it. The difference between someone like myself and them I did it of my own free will.

 

You're suggesting they're brainwashed, and if they are, so are we, just not in such a recognizable form. Those kids in the Arctic that you mentioned were sure brainwashed to want things they couldn't have.

 

 

I think you're contradicting yourself now.

 

It's no contradiction to say I wouldn't want to live that way and in that society, but yet respect (and even defend) their choice. It IS a free country, and if your whole idea is that Mennonites are coerced to stay as they are, they coerce themselves by their own expectations, and their attitudes (which their youth obviously adopt). I think you misplace your sympathy when you feel sorry for Mennonite youth. If it was such a bankrupt way of living, you'd see more of them turning away from it. They DO have that choice. No one is going to go after them with ropes and pitchforks.

 

 

Well you know what they say, ignorance is bliss. You can't possibly deny the fact that their lifestyle choice is narrowminded.

 

Narrow-minded by whose definition?

 

I wonder if a Mennonite could be coerced to offer an opinion of your life?

 

You see, that's another thing about them, if I read them correctly... they may reject your way of life, and talk about it in their own community, but they won't openly criticize you for it.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Jocko Point Jonny

[solopaddler]

In the microcosm of Mennonite society do you really think things are any different?

 

Yes.

 

 

You're suggesting they're brainwashed.

 

Pretty much, yes.

 

 

It's no contradiction to say I wouldn't want to live that way and in that society, but yet respect (and even defend) their choice. It IS a free country, and if your whole idea is that Mennonites are coerced to stay as they are, they coerce themselves by their own expectations, and their attitudes (which their youth obviously adopt). I think you misplace your sympathy when you feel sorry for Mennonite youth. If it was such a bankrupt way of living, you'd see more of them turning away from it. They DO have that choice. No one is going to go after them with ropes and pitchforks.

 

I don't believe they have a choice for reasons already outlined. People like myself do.

 

 

Narrow-minded by whose definition?

 

I wonder if a Mennonite could be coerced to offer an opinion of your life?

 

You see, that's another thing about them, if I read them correctly... they may reject your way of life, and talk about it in their own community, but they won't openly criticize you for it.

 

Narrow minded by its literal definition.

Actually I would be fascinated to hear a Mennonites opinion of my way of life, if he could be "coerced" of course.

I'm pretty sure there'd be some interesting criticism.

 

 

 

(btw JP Jonny, welcome to the board! Agree to disagree?)

Edited June 4, 2009 by solopaddler

[Jonny]

Narrow minded by its literal definition.

 

On-Line Dictionary

 

–adjective

1. having or showing a prejudiced mind, as persons or opinions; biased.

2. not receptive to new ideas; having a closed mind.

3. extremely conservative and morally self-righteous.

 

Well if it describes them, it might describe you too, and maybe me!

 

(btw JP Jonny, welcome to the board! Agree to disagree?)

 

Thanks, Solo, I got more of a running start in it than I had thought I would. Lots of interesting stuff here!

 

Of course we can agree to disagree. Interesting debate though.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Jocko Point Jonny

[splashhopper]

Bottom line is, you can't have one segment of "society" that is allowed to play by a different set of rules.

 

 

Ummm,,, we do already,.... Native Indians......

 

May not be "PC" to say it.... however I get a little annoyed when I have to pay for a license to get my TWO trout and they can harvest as many as they like....

 

what gives with that?

 

Don't Mennonites and the Natives go to our "community" Hospitals.... ride our "community roads".... expect Police protection and the list can go on and on....

 

I know this might make me a redneck... but hey... I am

[Musky or Specks]

Sorry whoever said meenonites have no impact on the enviroment are absolutely out to lunch they are the worst offenders of land use practices. Manure piles leaking right into water ways destruction of wetlands/riperian zones. Livestock access to entire stretches of waterways that result in erosion of the banks. They have virtually destroyed the Conostoga River watershed with their land use practices.

[HTHM]

You know what? Maybe we should continue this conversation in person.

 

You do realize I'm exactly 988m from your front door at the moment? LOL!

 

(I work in the control tower at the airport, see your truck in the driveway everyday on my way to work. Seriously I've been meaning to stop and say hi, but I'm usually passing through either really early or really late. )

You are welcome to stop by and have a chat, just realize that you will be graciously hosted. I enjoy a good debate.

So much for anonimity on the internet...

Edited June 4, 2009 by hometownhandyman

[big guy]

Ummm,,, we do already,.... Native Indians......

 

May not be "PC" to say it.... however I get a little annoyed when I have to pay for a license to get my TWO trout and they can harvest as many as they like....

 

what gives with that?

 

Don't Mennonites and the Natives go to our "community" Hospitals.... ride our "community roads".... expect Police protection and the list can go on and on....

 

I know this might make me a redneck... but hey... I am

 

 

Yes, true, but it doesn't make it right either does it?

 

Isn't it funny/strange how these days we/most of us are so politically correct that you don't dare call a spade a spade, but if you speak the truth, if you speak logic, you're called a redneck?

 

It's time we put an end to all the Bull.

[cambo]

Bottom line is, you can't have one segment of "society" that is allowed to play by a different set of rules.

 

 

 

Ummm,,, we do already,.... Native Indians......

 

May not be "PC" to say it.... however I get a little annoyed when I have to pay for a license to get my TWO trout and they can harvest as many as they like....

 

what gives with that?

 

Don't Mennonites and the Natives go to our "community" Hospitals.... ride our "community roads".... expect Police protection and the list can go on and on....

 

I know this might make me a redneck... but hey... I am

Oh I don't know a "treaty"

[JohnF]

So much for anonimity on the internet...

 

You're the only OFNer I know who has his internet handle painted in huge letters on the side of his van - and you expect anonymity???

 

JF

[HTHM]

You're the only OFNer I know who has his internet handle painted in huge letters on the side of his van - and you expect anonymity???

 

JF

Yah, well, um, oh, but no-one ever accused me of having a good grasp of the obvious.

[JohnF]

I've been avoiding jumping into this particular fray, but hey, my name's on the durned thang.

 

I can argue both sides of this so forgive the contradictions to follow:

 

We have a lot of Mennonites in our area, obviously. When my wife finally went back to work after rearing the kids to school age we arranged for the neighbour lady to keep them after school etc until one of us was home from work. The first summer she asked if they could go to vacation bible school with her kids as she was one of the people running it. We said sure. We knew and trusted her and her family implicitly. After some weeks our kids said we were invited to the bible school final day so of course we went. We were aware that it was a country church but were a little surprised to see all the black cars, some buggies, and a predominance of long dresses (on the women) when we arrived (and no a/c in the church on a very hot muggy July evening). If you were to meet the members of that family you'd never guess they were practising Mennonites.

 

Some years ago a young friend of ours (actually he'd been a best friend of our eldest son and had kinda adopted us as family) started bringing his girlfriend of the moment to visit us - a very nice polite modern young lady dressed in the latest styles etc. I was so impressed with her that I arranged for her to work as a part time receptionist at our office. She graduated from high school and left our employ, presumably (by me) to go on to post secondary edykashun etc. By this time she was no longer involved with our young friend. He went through girls like I went through beer. I was quite surprised, even mildly shocked, to run into her on the street one day wearing that long dress and apron favoured by the good Mennonite women of the Wellesley area, and the little coffee filter like hair thingy. She caught my surprise, laughed, and explained that her folks were of the older more orthodox (not sure she used that exact word) order and that through her teen years she really didn't want to live in their style. Around the time she finished high school she made a life choice to return to the fold so to speak and immediately her folks arranged a marriage for her and she became a part of that old order community. I have since run into her several times, even calling her to come in as a sub at the office on occasion, and she tells me she's happy as a clam with that simpler life. She's not a dumb little girl, far from it, and it was meaningful to me to hear her describe how much happier she is in that life style.

 

On the other hand in my high school and university days I worked with some of the boys from the Mennonite community, with many levels of acceptance of our modern trappings, and one constant with most of them, they could party with the best of us. There was nothing staid and somber about them when they got a snootful of lager.

 

The only complaint I have is that at times they present something of a traffic hazard. If it isn't tourists gawking at the anachronistic mode of transport and dress, it's one of us locals trying to figure out what new modern automotive components some enterprising Mennonite has been able to incorporate into the evolution of his ride, or just having to slow down to swing wide to get around the buggy. I'm just not that familiar with horses and the idea of the horse spooking and swinging out in front of my vehicle concerns me, despite the extra wide road shoulders provided for the buggies in certain areas.

 

I'm no farmer so I can't comment on their nutrient, land or manure management practices, and it's obvious to someone who has grown up seeing Mennonites all around that it's getting more and more difficult for them to maintain their old order ways as they become of necessity assimilated by our modern society. And in a way that's a shame. I often think of the aforemmentioned young lady and how content she seems with her life now. There are virtues that escape most of us in that old order lifestyle, and some criticisms that can made too. Basically it's none of my business how they or anyone else choose to live provided they stay within the law.

 

So, that being said, why shouldn't they be required to buy a fishing licence just like me?

 

Respectfully, and with abject apologies to Roy (the devil made me do it)

 

JF

[Roy]

Respectfully, and with abject apologies to Roy (the devil made me do it)

 

JF

You had to haul me in there eh? Great story John.

[fishermccann]

I agree great read , lots of first hand knowledge. Thanks.

[capt bruce]

My thanks to JPJ , Big guy , Solo , John and all the others that made this one of the best threads I have had the pleasure to read on this board . Tho it was mostly non fishing related , it shows that we have a wide range of opinions on this board ( but we come together under our love for the outdoors) and we can express these differing views without resorting to name calling etc. and WE CAN AGREE to DISAGEE . Great debate now Im not sure what side IM on both (I think that this time theres maybe three sides) made great points .