Help the Troubled Credit River

[craigdritchie]

Hello,

 

Thanks to John Bacon for sharing the link above to our FB post, as there has been some incorrect information about the Atlantic Salmon program and its history previously posted in this thread, most notably that MNRF’s research from the 1980s to early 2000s showed the rivers were not suitable for Atlantic Salmon. In fact, the opposite was found and reported in a 2003 review of the program. This review is what lead to the launch of full scale restoration as the next step, and the report’s specific conclusion on the subject was:

 

"Although limited resources have delayed progress relative to the schedule contained in the 1995 Atlantic salmon Restoration Plan, the program benchmarks specified for the first five years of the program have be met. Research since 1995 has demonstrated that stream habitats support survival of the early life-stages of Atlantic salmon and that mature adult Atlantic salmon return to streams to spawn. There remains uncertainty about the rate of adult returns and the success of spawning."

 

The report’s second conclusion (of seven) was:

 

"The Atlantic salmon restoration program is now at the point where research and rehabilitation objectives converge. This is due to the fact that the key outstanding research priority is to understand the rate at which mature adults will return to spawn in streams."

 

The reference for these is: Greig, L., B. Ritchie, L. Carl and C. A. Lewis. 2003. Potential and Strategy for Restoration of Atlantic Salmon in Lake Ontario: A Workshop Report. Prepared by ESSA Technologies Ltd., Toronto, ON. Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources, Lake Ontario Management Unit. Peterborough, ON. 39 pp.

 

In 2014, a further science review of the program was held and a report prepared – available here: http://www.bringbackthesalmon.ca/?page_id=24 – that again showed well-above-threshold survival of juvenile Atlantic Salmon in the rivers. There appears to be a bottleneck for the older life stages stocked (fall fingerlings and yearlings) in the pre-smolt phase, related to rearing practices, and this was addressed beginning in 2014 to increase the role the older life stages play in returns; to date the youngest fish we stock are producing almost all of the adults.

 

More information on the program and its four components is available in this FAQ: http://www.bringbackthesalmon.ca/?page_id=101

 

Fish production and stocking is only ¼ of the program’s activities, to date the habitat component has completed 189 coldwater stream restoration projects on five watersheds and each year through the program partners over 25,000 students get lessons on Lake Ontario and its fishes. Fish production and stocking get the fish into the rivers; habitat restoration continues to improve and protect habitat for the fish; education and outreach generates an engaged community of stewards for the watersheds; and research and assessment looks to understand how Atlantic Salmon behave in the modern Lake Ontario basin and feeds information back to the fish production/stocking and habitat components. From the 2014 science review and a subsequent management workshop, an updated Atlantic Salmon restoration strategy for 2016-2021 is being finished this fall.

 

With regard to the history of the Chinook program, what we currently have is the third iteration of a Chinook program – they failed in the 1870s and over 1916-33, and they were eventually successful in part because by the 1970s there was an empty niche for them. Even as late as 1977 though they were considered to have generated “negligible returns” (MacCrimmon, H.R. 1977. Animal, man and change: alien and exotic wildlife of Ontario. McClelland and Stewart, Toronto, ON. 160 pp.). A history of Great Lakes salmon and trout species and stocking is here: http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/254320.pdf

 

Rainbow Trout and Brown Trout have also had erratic histories over the last century plus; last winter MNRF opened public consultations on an operational stocking plan for Lake Ontario and provided further histories and background here: http://www.ebr.gov.on.ca/ERS-WEB-External/displaynoticecontent.do?noticeId=MTIzODk2&statusId=MTg2Mzcw&language=en

 

This, along with MNRF’s annual Lake Ontario reports ( http://www.glfc.org/lakecom/loc/mgmt_unit/ ), also describes how Atlantic Salmon stocking is actually distributed and more information on the program. But it also discusses the problems with Lake Ontario’s Brown Trout fishery (the migratory/open water fish, not the upstream residents) and proposed two alternative stocking options to improve the fishery. In short, despite being the second most stocked species by weight (after Lake Trout), Brown Trout had catch rates barely above Atlantic Salmon. The proposed alternatives were to stock more heavily at fewer locations, or stock heavily in annually alternating locations.

 

False facts and a toxic atmosphere won’t help the west basin of Lake Ontario or the Credit River. Any mature discussion of opening the river up will have to address a number of issues, including how accepting anglers are going to be to reductions in Chinook stocking to balance an increase in natural reproduction. Any reduction may (or be likely to) have to exceed the Credit River’s current stocking allocation. Ontario and New York committed to a predator-prey balance in the 2013 Fish Community Objectives (http://www.ontario.ca/document/fish-community-objectives-lake-ontario ) – Obj. 2.4 is "Maintain predator/prey balance - maintain abundance of top predators (stocked and wild) in balance with available prey fish" and Obj. 2.1 is "Maintain the Chinook Salmon fishery – maintain Chinook Salmon as the top offshore pelagic predator supporting trophy recreational lake and tributary fisheries through stocking, accounting for natural reproduction." (emphasis mine)

 

That is under a status quo situation with alewife abundance, and we may not be in a status quo situation – the 2013 alewife year-class at least has failed ( http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/lou2014hilights.pdf ) and Chinook are currently feeding off the 2012 record year-class. The 2014 alewife year-class will be reported on next winter, and we won’t know about the 2015 year-class until next summer. But for now all we know is they are feeding off a capital that may not be generating any interest.

 

MNRF has heard the concerns of west basin anglers and is already undertaking one major change to the Chinook Salmon egg collection and stocking program to move some of the longer-staging naturalized fish to the west end of the lake:

"The naturalized wild populations of Chinook Salmon that have developed in the north shore tributaries of Lake Ontario seem to exhibit a broad range of run diversity with some fish staging early in mid-summer and others staging later on in the fall. Since the early 1980’s, the source for all hatchery-raised Chinook Salmon for stocking into Ontario waters has been from returning fish collected in the Credit River at Streetsville Dam in early October. In an effort to expand run diversity, the MNRF will initiate a project in 2015 to collect Chinook Salmon gametes from two sources: 1) the naturalized wild population in the Ganaraska River and 2) the traditional stocked population in the Credit River. Other naturalized populations may also be considered as a source in the future. Fish reared from eggs from both sources will be stocked equally in Bronte and the Credit Rivers starting in 2016. MNRF is planning to assess the results of this initiative to see if there is a significant difference between the two sources." (from the MNRF Lake Manager's note to the FMZ 20 Council)

 

To discuss the Atlantic Salmon program or these other issues further, I can be reached at [email protected] or 705-748-6324 ext. 237. OFAH responses to public consultations are available online at: https://www.ofah.org/fishing-hunting/fishing-fisheries/action/ and our specific response to the Lake Ontario stocking plan is here: http://www.ofah.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/OFAH-submission-on-Proposed-Stocking-Plan-for-Canadian-Waters_of-Lake-Ontario-EBR-012-3046.pdf

 

Yours in Conservation,

Chris Robinson

OFAH Atlantic Salmon Restoration Program Coordinator

OFAH FMZ 20 West Advisory Council Alternate

OFAH Credit River FMP Implementation Committee Member

 

 

 

 

Blah blah blah. None of this answers the fundamental question.

 

We stock about a half-million chinook into Lake Ontario each year. The lake is full of them. Going out and catching a dozen chinook a day is not unusual at all.

 

We also stock about a half-million Atlantics into Lake Ontario each year. Yet to this day, most anglers have still never even seen one.

 

If the Atlantic salmon program is such a rip roaring success, where are all these fish?

Edited September 30, 2015 by Craig_Ritchie

[jeffw]

I've always wondered why they don't focus more on stocking specks they are also native fish but don't seem to get much attention. Everyone seems to forget that browns and bows are not native. Cheers jeff

[John Bacon]

 

That is the single biggest amount of horse crap I've ever heard spewed from your mouth Chris. The single biggest!!

 

I'll allow you to "clarify" your words before I clearly show how stupid and wrong that statement is. And of course, if one of your statements are as stupid as that, we can all imagine how much more verbal diarrhea you must spew.

 

So, please clarify, or if not, I'll have some fun :)

 

Re: "Brown Trout had catch rates barely above Atlantic Salmon"

 

I don't have the stats handy but if remember correctly that is the information that the MNR provided during their public information sessions.

• It does not include the U.S. fishery. It is based on reports from Ontario fisherman.
• The surveys were based primarily on boat fisherman rather than shore fisherman.
• It is based on reported catches, not on the fish population.

Despite stocking effort of browns along the north shore of Lake Ontario, there are few reports of anglers catching browns. That is why the MNR is reviewing the stocking program for browns; they are not currently getting much return for their efforts. One proposal is to concentrate the stocking in a few locations so that they can create very good fisheries in specific locations rather than having a mediocer fishery along the entire northern shoreline.

 

I don't doubt that there are more brown trout than Atlantic salmon in Lake Ontario. However, the baot fisherman on the north shore of Lake Ontario are not reporting many catches for browns. It is quite possible that the trollers along the north shore are reporting almost as many Atlantics as browns.

 

The MNR plans to survery more shore fisherman which may increase the numbers of browns reported. I know that there are shore fisherman who target browns in the fall; few if any of them target Atlantics.

 

Reported catches may not reflect populations. Most of the boats fisherman are targetting Chinooks or bows. Browns just aren't in the same waters as those species. Atlantics are more likley to occupy the same waters as the targetting fish which will skew the reported catches in their favour. So it may very well be true that reported catches of browns were barely above those of Atlantics.

[landry]

That's just cherry picking data that suits the MNR's agenda.

Anyone who river fishes knows that Browns are waaaay more plentiful and common than Atlantics. They just aren't showing up much in boats. The Niagara is loaded with Browns in the Fall. These "scientists" need to use common sense. Boat catches do not represent ALL of the brown trout.

Take the blinders off.

[landry]

I don't even River fish anymore but this kinda stuff bugs me.

The MNR should start to put more stock into what good River anglers, like Bill and Craig, have actually seen over thirty years. Anyone who's been around River fishing for a long time has a good pulse on run numbers, trends and realistic, worthwhile and common sense fisheries management.

Edited September 30, 2015 by landry

[John Bacon]

That's just cherry picking data that suits the MNR's agenda.

Anyone who river fishes knows that Browns are waaaay more plentiful and common than Atlantics. They just aren't showing up much in boats. The Niagara is loaded with Browns in the Fall. These "scientists" need to use common sense. Boat catches do not represent ALL of the brown trout.

Take the blinders off.

 

The MNR never claimed that the data represented the population in the lake. The data represents reported catches.

 

The MNR is not trying to establish a self sustaining brown trout population in Lake Ontario.

 

Brown trout are stocked to create a fishery. If few people are catching them, then the stocking is not providing returns for their efforts. Regardless of whether the low catches are due to lack of angler effort, lack or angler success, or lack of fish population; the stocking efforts have not paid off in terms of angler success.

 

The MNR has aknowledged that their surveys have been skewed toward boat anglers over shore anglers and have plans to address this. If the shore anglers reports good catches that will show benefits for the stocking efforts.

[Steve]

boat anglers catch hundreds and hundreds of brown trout yearly.

 

my boat catches in excess of 100 browns annually.

 

I have caught since 2004 to present WELL OVER 1000 browns.

 

In that time, I've caught 2 atlantics.

 

I've caught browns from Hamilton to Niagara River, and from Hamilton to Bronte.

 

I've had days with 20 plus browns. I've had double and triple headers of browns.

 

I've caught browns in Hamilton Harbour. I've caught browns in the Niagara River.

 

Hell, TALK TO ANYONE who fishes the Niagara river how hard it is to catch browns.

 

Even more so, TALK TO ANYONE who fishes Pt Dalhousie about how many browns are around.

 

This is the most stupid, asinine conversation I've ever had about Atlantics.

 

Browns can be caught in January, February, March, April and May, from a boat, WITH SUPER EASE!

 

If needed, just to show how stupid this conversation is, I'll put up a poll on here, and spoonpullers, asking BOAT ANGLERS have they caught more browns, or atlantics, in their boat to date.

 

This is just retarded.

 

I know other anglers who target browns like I do, and have a VERY EASY time catching browns in the months I mentioned above.

 

There is one fella on spoonpullers who I put onto browns two years ago, that had a 35 brown day last May out of Jordan Harbour...that is more than every Atlantic caught on lake ontario all year.

Wow.

 

I swear I've heard it all now.

 

JohnBacon and Chris Robinson, why don't we go out together next spring, on my boat, and we'll catch more BROWNS in one MORNING than you both will catch Atlantics in your ENTIRE LIFE (out of lake ontario).

 

I won't accept this atlantic bullcrap to put a dark cloud on brown trout in Lake Ontario!!!!!

 

MANY MANY BOAT ANGLERS enjoy Brown Trout.....DO NOT put the stupid TICS in the same "Failure" Category as Brown Trout.

 

MAN AM I MAD WITH THE STUPIDITY!!!!

[Steve]

No Atlantic in Lake Ontario will ever match the beauty and plentiful numbers as the majestic BROWN TROUT!!!

[Steve]

oh, and head on over to Quintefishing.com and ask those boys about their fantastic spring brown trout fishery....have a chat with Superdad, Trannyman, Scott Walcott, any of the boys over there....

 

Ask them about their success with atlantics compared to brown trout?!?!?!!

 

I'm steamed now!!!!

How stupid can some people be in the face of the atlantics.

 

 

http://www.spoonpullers.com/forums/index.php/topic,25162.0.html

Edited September 30, 2015 by Steve

[John Bacon]

 

 

I've caught browns from Hamilton to Niagara River, and from Hamilton to Bronte.

 

Hell, TALK TO ANYONE who fishes the Niagara river how hard it is to catch browns.

 

Even more so, TALK TO ANYONE who fishes Pt Dalhousie about how many browns are around.

 

 

It sounds like you fish the south shore a lot. I am going by memory, but the MNR reports may have been for the north shore only.

 

 

JohnBacon and Chris Robinson, why don't we go out together next spring, on my boat, and we'll catch more BROWNS in one MORNING than you both will catch Atlantics in your ENTIRE LIFE (out of lake ontario).

 

 

I would be happy to take you up on that offer.

 

 

 

I won't accept this atlantic bullcrap to put a dark cloud on brown trout in Lake Ontario!!!!!

 

MANY MANY BOAT ANGLERS enjoy Brown Trout.....DO NOT put the stupid TICS in the same "Failure" Category as Brown Trout.

 

 

I think the two programs are independent and serve different purposes. Neither one is being used to discredit the other.

 

In the case of brown trout, the MNR stocks browns for the purpose of providing a put and take fishery. They are just trying to maximize the amount of taking for their efforts in putting. The MNR surveys (for the north shore at least) have not indicated that there has been a lot of taking relative to the amount of putting that they have done. They have acknowledged that their surveys were skewed towards boat anglers. They plan to survey more shore anglers; that may change the results if a lot of browns are being caught from shore.

 

The current plan is not to reduce stocking of browns on the north shore. However, they may concentrate the stocking of browns into few locations. They would still stock the same number of fish; they would just put a large number of fish in three or four locations instead of smaller numbers of fish in a dozen or so locations. The thought is that they may generate more interest if there are a few very good fishing spots instead of mediocre fishing across the entire north shore.

 

[landry]

Wow Steve. Great job. I'm gonna let u do the talking seeing as johnbacon looked for and found a loophole in my post.

It feels hopeless though. They appear to be looking for data that supports "their mission/goal" when all I see is wasted time and money that could go into fish I have seen do well in my 25 years of River fishing. What do I know though.

[Steve]

I understand, and have heard what you are suggesting re stocking locations.

 

But I won't accept any discussion that brown trout have catch rates only barely better than atlantics.

 

Between fishing Sandbanks (North Shore) and Hamilton to Bronte (North Shore) I've still caught close to 50 browns over the years....

 

Still, 2 atlantics.

 

I'm VERY WORRIED that the crap that Chris spews to his OFAH friends will include that browns aren't any more successful than Atlantics...as a way to justify reductions in Browns to put more effort into Atlantics.

 

That is not acceptable.

 

OFAH and the public tend to be lemmings...and folks like Chris, who speak well, can convince those who don't know any better.

 

Like yourself, who is suggesting the results from some random MNR study...instead of knowing what is ACTUALLY going on in the lake...which is successful brown trout fishing from Hamilton to Sandbanks....

Yes, you have to fish for them...meaning shallower, and not out deep with the Kings.....

 

BUT DON'T discount the success of the Brown Trout due to the lack of success of the Atlantic program.

 

I wouldn't sell my trolling gear if the KING salmon disappeared (which appears to be happening), but I WOULD if the Brown Trout disappeared...because they are the most fun fish to catch on Lake O.

 

Most folks catch and release their browns as they aren't the best eating, but they make for a wonderful shallow water fishery....so no, you don't see tons back at the dock.....which is a GOOD THING!

Edited September 30, 2015 by Steve

[Steve]

and the results from my poll are coming in.

 

one angler says he gets 30:1 browns to atlantics (on the NORTH SHORE).

 

another angler suggests 100:1 browns to atlantics (on the SOUTH SHORE).

 

http://www.spoonpullers.com/forums/index.php/topic,25162.0.html

 

Retract the statement Chris or I won't let this drop. Stupidity like that CANNOT be accepted!

[John Bacon]

I understand, and have heard what you are suggesting re stocking locations.

 

 

That is not my suggestion. I am just relaying information that has been presented my the MNR.

 

 

 

Like yourself, who is suggesting the results from some random MNR study...instead of knowing what is ACTUALLY going on in the lake...which is successful brown trout fishing from Hamilton to Sandbanks....

Yes, you have to fish for them...meaning shallower, and not out deep with the Kings.....

 

BUT DON'T discount the success of the Brown Trout due to the lack of success of the Atlantic program.

 

I wouldn't sell my trolling gear if the KING salmon disappeared (which appears to be happening), but I WOULD if the Brown Trout disappeared...because they are the most fun fish to catch on Lake O.

 

Most folks catch and release their browns as they aren't the best eating, but they make for a wonderful shallow water fishery....so no, you don't see tons back at the dock.....which is a GOOD THING!

 

Again, I am just relaying information presented by the MNR.

 

You may want to contact the MNR about your success with browns. According to them they are getting very few reports of anglers catching browns. They use the surveys to make decisions; os if they are getting incorrect information they need to know.

 

It would be interesting to know when and how they did their surveys. I would think that surveys in mid-summer would show lower catches for browns than surveys done in spring or fall. Surveys results can certainly be skewed if they are not performed properly.

[Steve]

who knows how they did their survey's...

 

probably had a bunch of pimple faced kids hanging out around a launch ramp at the promanade in the middle of the afternoon who couldn't tell the difference between a brown and an atlantic anyway...

 

and those are the folks who provide the statistics that the mnr base their decisions on.

 

(and we wonder why the lake is going to hell in a hand basket).

[Dozer]

Wow - its those pimple faced kids who grow up and do work on the very fish you like to catch.

[Steve]

well, hopefully they learn about the fish in Lake Ontario on their own, and not listen to fools like Chris who come up with "statistics" which are the furthest from the truth!!!

 

soon enough it'll be, "because browns are barely more successful than atlantics, and atlantics are natural to the lake, we should switch our biomass stocking from browns to atlantics...after all, browns are only barely more successful...."

 

that is the crap that comes from the OFAH and the atlantic program.

[BillM]

We've been plastered with 'statistics' for years.. People can't forget the 2 page replies from John can they? Although all those replies and stats still haven't ended up with any sort of Atlantic fishery.

 

Dump the Atlantics and spend the $$$ on steelhead or browns. Fishery would be insane within 5 years.

[Garnet]

Lot's of browns caught off piers. Both Toronto Star and Oshawa This week Brown category's were won on Whitby and Oshawa pier.

[John Bacon]

Dump the Atlantics and spend the $$$ on steelhead or browns.

 

That is not an option. There are corporate sponsors providing $$$ specifically for the Atlantic restoration program. That money would not be available for other species if the Atlantic program was scrapped.

 

I would not count on getting any addional stocking of other species if the Atlantic stocking program is ever dumped. We might get more stocking of another species; but I wouldn't count on it.

Edited September 30, 2015 by JohnBacon

[landry]

JohnBacon - u r likely correct and that is sad. But the MNR and OFAH are responsible for selling this unattainable dream to these corporate sponsors. Now they need to redirect those sponsors towards a different goal.

[manitoubass2]

I didnt realize that the MNR doesnt have their own funding for restocking.

 

Isnt that silly?

[BillM]

Lot's of browns caught off piers. Both Toronto Star and Oshawa This week Brown category's were won on Whitby and Oshawa pier.

 

But nothing compared to the stateside southern shore Lake O tribs..

[leaf4]

What would a corporation have to gain from stocking Atlantics? (I'm a complete outsider when it comes to all this lol)

[John Bacon]

What would a corporation have to gain from stocking Atlantics? (I'm a complete outsider when it comes to all this lol)

 

Advertising and branding; the same as any other charitable donation. Corporations like to be seen as good corporate citizens in hopes that it will lead to increases revenues. Many companies put charitable donations under the advertising budget.

 

 

One client of mine made a point of supporting the charities that their customers supported. This was a high end jewellery store that catered to rich clients. They would donate to the same charities that their customers supported.