Gun ID and value?

[Cudz]

I was at a buddy's house and he decided to clean out some of his guns. Then he pulls out this old gun and we have no idea what it is etc. He says it was his grand father's but also said his dad used to hunt with it. We started doing some research and haven't seen the exact gun. It is an old muzzleloader and I think it is a WC Scott & Son firearm. Maybe not.

Anyway, I am not a member of a gun/hunting, or antique forum so I was hoping maybe someone here could help or point me in the right direction. THe only mark that we can make out is a distinct 'W' on the barrel. It is in pretty good condition. THere is lots of decorative etching around the trigger area. We figured probably pre 1890??????

Here are some pics

[jim]

try 'Canadiangunnutz' sight.

[backbay]

Cudz, are there any proof marks on the barrel? That'll help.

[Cudz]

Cudz, are there any proof marks on the barrel? That'll help.

W on the barrel. that is all

[NAW]

There will be writing on the barrel somewhere.

 

You might have to take the gun appart to see it, but almost every gun has some sort of marking on the barrel. It may be very small print, and hard to read.

[Cudz]

There will be writing on the barrel somewhere.

 

You might have to take the gun appart to see it, but almost every gun has some sort of marking on the barrel. It may be very small print, and hard to read.

worn off? We had like 15 guns out last night and were able to find markings on all except his one. The only thing that is clear on this gun is a cpitakl letter 'W' on the barrel.

[kickingfrog]

Maybe it's a "M" for McCoys?

[dave524]

We have a virtually identical smoothbore in the family, it is at dad's and it was very nicely made into a floor lamp with wires running down the barrel from a hole in the breech. From what I could research it is basically a " Trade Gun". These were cheaply made with little or no proof marks and the main use was a trade item with the natives for furs, hence the poor construction. Think it probably has a quite thin smoothbore damascus barrel and I would not attempt to use it even with black powder for which it was made. The value would be more of a family heirloom.

[Cudz]

We have a virtually identical smoothbore in the family, it is at dad's and it was very nicely made into a floor lamp with wires running down the barrel from a hole in the breech. From what I could research it is basically a " Trade Gun". These were cheaply made with little or no proof marks and the main use was a trade item with the natives for furs, hence the poor construction. Think it probably has a quite thin smoothbore damascus barrel and I would not attempt to use it even with black powder for which it was made. The value would be more of a family heirloom.

We actually want to try and shoot the thing. Wew will take it to a gunsmith first to make sure it is able to do so. We are also going to do our best not to get shot while loading it. haha. I think it was last shot in the late 70s. I wouldn't say it was cheaply made as there is some nice etching all over the gun and the barrelwall seems quite thick.

IF it won't shoot it would be a cool wallhanger.

[backbay]

It's a nice gun, and deserves a little better than to be made into a lamp, lol

Throw a cleaning rod down the bore with some hoppe's or equivilant on it and see how it looks...

[dave524]

I wasn't suggesting it be made into a lamp only that the one dad has had been long b4 my 62 years. If it has a thick barrel then it is obviously better than the similar looking one I am familar with. Is it smoothbore or rifled ? I've been involved with blackpowder since the 70's with 3 modern repro's of old guns, not that new in-line wannabe stuff, thought I could help. Lack of proof marks and identifying marks on the manufacture of the lock work suggested trade gun to me.

[backbay]

I wasn't suggesting it be made into a lamp only that the one dad has had been long b4 my 62 years. If it has a thick barrel then it is obviously better than the similar looking one I am familar with. Is it smoothbore or rifled ? I've been involved with blackpowder since the 70's with 3 modern repro's of old guns, not that new in-line wannabe stuff, thought I could help. Lack of proof marks and identifying marks on the manufacture of the lock work suggested trade gun to me.

Jk on the lamp thing....

It would be nice to see the gun in person: it was a little surprised (disappointed?) by the lack of proofs

[dave524]

Jk on the lamp thing....

It would be nice to see the gun in person: it was a little surprised (disappointed?) by the lack of proofs

 

It was the lack of proofs that suggested trade gun initially to me. Seems there was two qualities of arms back in the fur days, good ones with all the proofs for the white man and cheaply made versions often lacking proofs that were traded to the natives for furs.

[Cudz]

It was the lack of proofs that suggested trade gun initially to me. Seems there was two qualities of arms back in the fur days, good ones with all the proofs for the white man and cheaply made versions often lacking proofs that were traded to the natives for furs.

I am going to take the barrel off tonight and see if there are any marks below. I think it is a cool gun and I love old stuff. I want to fire it!

There might have been more marks but they look to be rubbed off. I am going to take a magnifier to it tonight. The very end of the ramrod is missing the flat metal piece

[misfish]

take it to Carl, at thr wolfs den Chris.

[Cudz]

take it to Carl, at thr wolfs den Chris.

ok. Cool thanks Brian

[Catnthehat]

ok. Cool thanks Brian

 

I've been shooting , and repairing Black powder rifles and shotguns since 1977, and can tell by the nose cap, trigger guard, hammers, hooked breech, and checkering, that this is not a hardware store gun but a decently made English fowler.if you remove the lock you will likely see a little metal piece behind the bridal ( something that looks like a snail ) , the little metal piece is called a" fly" or detente, that prevents the sear from hitting the half noodle notch on the tumbler when it is fired.

The cheaper guns, as well as the other things i mentioned, never had this.

If you look at the underside of the barrels as well, you may see a note that says "not for ball" or choke"

 

If it was a cheaper hardware gun proofed in England but made with parts from Continental Europe, it would have the crown and mace proofs but would also have a note saying "not English made"

Hope this helps.

Ge the barrel checked out and if it's okay, feel free to contact me and can walk you through the whole process of shooting that fine piece.

Cat

Edited August 31, 2012 by catnthehat

[Roy]

Wow! Now there's a knowledgeable and helpful first post! Welcome aboard Cat.

[misfish]

WOW X2

 

Excellent.

 

Welcome.

[blaque]

I feel like im watching an episode of Pawn Stars

 

"so what are your concerns with this piece Rick"

Edited August 31, 2012 by Blaque

[Cudz]

Thanks to everyone here with your suggestions. Backbay, you have been really helpful. A couple of days ago I did take the barrel off and I did find the proofs. It is an english gun most likely as it had 2 Birmingham proofs on it. Both were the same a crown with an X or swords crossing under it. No other words or letters on it though except for what appears to be the W with a crown on it at the top of the barrel. Here are the pics for all those interested. The gus is very used as much of its engraving is very fine or rubbed off completely. I suspect there were manufacturer imprints on it before but I can't find them

 

Here is the top and only visible writing on the gun a W I believe with a crown on it

Here are what I believe are the Birmingham proofs. Now I want to find out the manufacturer

[Catnthehat]

Thanks to everyone here with your suggestions. Backbay, you have been really helpful. A couple of days ago I did take the barrel off and I did find the proofs. It is an english gun most likely as it had 2 Birmingham proofs on it. Both were the same a crown with an X or swords crossing under it. No other words or letters on it though except for what appears to be the W with a crown on it at the top of the barrel. Here are the pics for all those interested. The gus is very used as much of its engraving is very fine or rubbed off completely. I suspect there were manufacturer imprints on it before but I can't find them

 

Here is the top and only visible writing on the gun a W I believe with a crown on it

Here are what I believe are the Birmingham proofs. Now I want to find out the manufacturer

 

 

Thanks for the warm welcome , guys!

Backbay actually sent me here , I do fish as well as shoot!

I think I can safely say that I have known Backbay longer than anyone else on the site!( grin)

 

Cudz, the name seems to appear as Wheir, a London maker IIRC correctly form my data.

it's a wonderful piece and hopefully you will be able t get it smoking again!

 

Cat

Edited August 31, 2012 by catnthehat

[backbay]

Thank you Cudz, but I can assure you that Cat has forgotten more than I know about firearms. Great to see him on here!

[Cudz]

Thanks for the warm welcome , guys!

Backbay actually sent me here , I do fish as well as shoot!

I think I can safely say that I have known Backbay longer than anyone else on the site!( grin)

 

Cudz, the name seems to appear as Wheir, a London maker IIRC correctly form my data.

it's a wonderful piece and hopefully you will be able t get it smoking again!

 

Cat

Cool!

I tried to lookup Wheir firearms london and found nothing. Maybe I mispelled it. I guess maybe they were a small manufacturer??

thanksfor the help. I will keep you posted on the situation.

[kickingfrog]

Cool!

I tried to lookup Wheir firearms london and found nothing. Maybe I mispelled it. I guess maybe they were a small manufacturer??

thanksfor the help. I will keep you posted on the situation.

 

 

More likely they didn't have a web site a hundred years ago.