More on the HST

[JohnF]

I tried to answer in the "at the pumps" thread but for whatever reason it wouldn't post. Here's what I wrote.

 

Well, it seems to me the best thing for us all to do right now is suck it up and move on. If you feel really strongly about it express yourself in the next election. But pay close attention to the promises the other parties are making about rescinding this tax. I have a pretty good hunch they won't be doing anything like that.

 

Yeah, it sucks that I have to collect an extra 8% or $800 on a $200,000 sale assuming a commission rate of 5%. Keep in mind though that there is no set commission rate in Ontario so I suspect a lot of smarter realtors aren't going to blow a listing for a few hundred bucks. Commissions have always been negotiable before and now we just have one more factor to throw into the negotiating equation.

 

And as for new homes, at least under $400,000 there's a pretty substantial rebate in place. Eventually if the builders play fair most of the extra should actually disappear. Naturally some of them will take advantage of the circumstances to pad the profit margin and let the govt take the heat for it.

 

The long and short of it is that all the pissing and moaning in the world won't make the new tax go away. The provincial govt is stuck with it and so are we.

 

As much as it pains me to admit it the new tax is probably the right way to go. It's about time the governments started paring away some of the bureaucratic lard. Now, once we get used to it, we'll just have one tax collection infrastructure instead of two and for many of us with deductible expenses it'll one day be to our advantage. Talk to some of the business people you know. Odds are pretty good they'll tell you they like the tax for a whole bunch of reasons.

 

Don't let the politicians wind you up against the other party over something they themselves wouldn't change and almost certainly would have had to do themselves if they'd been in power. In reality the extra tax is really only on a limited number of things that weren't already subject to the two taxes.

 

If you want to put some heat on somebody over this start asking some of the product suppliers if they're reducing prices to reflect the provincial tax change. How many products will you be paying the new tax on when the price you're paying still includes the 8% from the old tax collection system?

 

Sorry if I've let any of you down with my lack of angst but I'm just grinning and bearing it. It's not great right now but it's nowhere near as horrible as some of the opposition politicians and special interest groups would have you believe.

 

JF

[camillj]

Only part I still don't get is how prices could go down ... am I missing something ?

 

Before HST, When I bought stuff for resale it was PST exempt (to me) ... and I charged 5 + 8 = 13% and gave it all (less GST ITC) to the govt on two separate submissions ... now I'll pay HST on everything... and charge 13% and give it (less HST ITC) to the govt ... so basically its a wash.... but the fact is a bunch of things (mostly services) will be 8% more expensive for the end user ... it is what it is

[Handlebarz]

Better for our friends to the south I see a lot more cross boarder shopping and now this is just one other reason for people close to the boarders to head over. heck you would save a ton on fuel alone before this crap. I also see more places willing to talk $$$ and getting away from using the cash register. On that note I was talking to a older girl this week about her small place that she runs and to see how this would help her in her eyes it does not help her and the first thing she had to do was fork out more $$$ on a new cash register then make up all new cards for her place as the old ones had gst/pst spots and so much more. Oh well take it up the well you know and make the change to what??????????????? WHERE IS DAVE on this one??????

 

 

That is my rant this tax sucks as well as all of the others that Dalton has made.

[John Bacon]

Only part I still don't get is how prices could go down ... am I missing something ?

 

Before HST, When I bought stuff for resale it was PST exempt (to me) ... and I charged 5 + 8 = 13% and gave it all (less GST ITC) to the govt on two separate submissions ... now I'll pay HST on everything... and charge 13% and give it (less HST ITC) to the govt ... so basically its a wash.... but the fact is a bunch of things (mostly services) will be 8% more expensive for the end user ... it is what it is

 

The savings would apply to items that purchase that are not for re-sale; i.e. computers, tools, shelves, etc. Businesses are general exempt from paying PST on goods that they purchase for resale but they do have to pay PST on good that they buy for use by the business. These will effectively be tax free because of input tax credits. In theory, the businesses will pass these savings on to the consumer by lowering their prices.

[cynmar]

I tried to answer in the "at the pumps" thread but for whatever reason it wouldn't post. Here's what I wrote.

 

Well, it seems to me the best thing for us all to do right now is suck it up and move on. If you feel really strongly about it express yourself in the next election. But pay close attention to the promises the other parties are making about rescinding this tax. I have a pretty good hunch they won't be doing anything like that.

 

Yeah, it sucks that I have to collect an extra 8% or $800 on a $200,000 sale assuming a commission rate of 5%. Keep in mind though that there is no set commission rate in Ontario so I suspect a lot of smarter realtors aren't going to blow a listing for a few hundred bucks. Commissions have always been negotiable before and now we just have one more factor to throw into the negotiating equation.

 

And as for new homes, at least under $400,000 there's a pretty substantial rebate in place. Eventually if the builders play fair most of the extra should actually disappear. Naturally some of them will take advantage of the circumstances to pad the profit margin and let the govt take the heat for it.

 

The long and short of it is that all the pissing and moaning in the world won't make the new tax go away. The provincial govt is stuck with it and so are we.

 

As much as it pains me to admit it the new tax is probably the right way to go. It's about time the governments started paring away some of the bureaucratic lard. Now, once we get used to it, we'll just have one tax collection infrastructure instead of two and for many of us with deductible expenses it'll one day be to our advantage. Talk to some of the business people you know. Odds are pretty good they'll tell you they like the tax for a whole bunch of reasons.

 

Don't let the politicians wind you up against the other party over something they themselves wouldn't change and almost certainly would have had to do themselves if they'd been in power. In reality the extra tax is really only on a limited number of things that weren't already subject to the two taxes.

 

If you want to put some heat on somebody over this start asking some of the product suppliers if they're reducing prices to reflect the provincial tax change. How many products will you be paying the new tax on when the price you're paying still includes the 8% from the old tax collection system?

 

Sorry if I've let any of you down with my lack of angst but I'm just grinning and bearing it. It's not great right now but it's nowhere near as horrible as some of the opposition politicians and special interest groups would have you believe.

 

JF

 

 

Not sure I agree because I don't see any government paring down, I believe it was the PS.T. department that not only kept their jobs moving to the HST section but their union got them a nice fat severance pay because they lost their job with P.S.T. prior to going to work the next day under the H.S.T. Didn't even move their damn chair. Now that is just wrong.

I see a lot of service companies are going to either lose revenue or be faced with decreased profits and the associated cuts. I own a janitorial company and we are faced with no increases. In some cases, we have been asked to eat the increase in tax, as prior to July we only charged G.S.T. Decrease in profit, no investment in equipment , employment to training.!! Growth stagnates. I know I am sounding extreme and as you say the other parties are no different. We have to look at a different regime where people expect less from the government and we can perhaps force them to pare themselves down.

 

Bill

[Tdel]

In theory, the businesses will pass these savings on to the consumer by lowering their prices.

 

Why do I find the statement above so hard to believe???

 

Looks like businesses are happy and will save money. I just can't see any savings for the consumer.

 

Tom.

[Grimace]

If gas is 75 percent tax, how can they charge 8 percent on the whole works for 8 cents a litre? Should they only tax the 25 percent that is not taxed already? That would have only raised the price per litre about 2 cents.

[Grimace]

On another note. If companies passed down the savings Nike would be selling shoes for 15 dollars because of all the money they saved getting children in sweat shops to do the work for basically nothing. Did the prices of cars drop 40 percent on the first? The reason I would guess 40 and not 8 is because of the compounding tax on tax from every purchase the feeder plants made and then sold up to bigger feeder plants on the way to GM/Ford/ whoever.

[asdve23rveavwa]

If gas is 75 percent tax, how can they charge 8 percent on the whole works for 8 cents a litre? Should they only tax the 25 percent that is not taxed already? That would have only raised the price per litre about 2 cents.

Excellent point!!!!!! Once again, our government gives it to us, and, we bend over and take it!!

[lew]

Pretty sure we were already paying taxes on gasoline tax so now we're paying a tax on a tax on the taxes.

 

I'm just glad I can HONESTLY say I didn't vote for these thieves that imposed this on us.

[Fish Farmer]

How many people are retired thinks HST is a good thing. All I know, which is not to much, at the end of the day fishing yesterday we stopped for gas to fill the truck and boat cost me an extra $20.00 for gas, treated my 2 buddys to a quick beer at the landing, bill came $14.30 for 3 beers. My buddy near had a fit, won't be back hear agian. We talked going home about what were going to see on our heating bill, come winter . What was left in my pocket at the end of the day told me how good HST was for me. But as you say, It could be good in the long run. Now its got me thinking about the 2 more trips this week, could be only 1 trip.

Your right about one thing John, what lier can we vote for at the polls. Oh I almost forgot, the Perchin on Erie: Nanticoke was not to hot yesterday.

[Grimace]

Remember that Harper is also paying them off to do this. It is not just that mcguinty criminal. In my town they are building a big library for god knows how many millions of the stimulus fund and on the other side of town the school board is selling off the school yard to developers. When was the last time you drove by a school without portables. Kids putting boots on in the winter just to go to class. With all the new subdivisions all the new people all the new tax money. Municipal, provincial, Federal, they are all crooks.

 

Lol. That is my rant for the month. Cheers everyone. Tight lines.

[JohnF]

I know the whole thing is hard to stomach. Perhaps I've just become innured after so many years of putting up with all the different levels and parties in government sticking it to me. Politics seems to bring out the worst in everybody - the politicians and the electorate. I sometimes think it would be great to go back to a simpler kinder time but in reality when was that exactly? Isn't suffering under taxation and lying politicians just part of the price we pay for the life we enjoy? I'm not sure it was ever any different. Just different politicians and different lies countered by offended voters flipflopping from one party to the other as they fell for the new round of lies. Many of you will be ranting that we need to switch votes to the party that didn't commit the last abuse on us. It gets to sound not unlike the Maple leafs and Habs fans and their blind faith. As far as I'm concerned we'd be better off without any kind of partisan politics and have nothing but independents sitting, but smarter folks than me tell me that would be impossible, our system of government is modeled on the party system and can't be changed.

 

But at the end of the day and for all the lying politicians we suffer Canada is still a pretty good place to live, isn't it?

 

In case you've forgotten go to Lew's Happy Canada Day thread here.

 

JF

[Fish Farmer]

If gas is 75 percent tax, how can they charge 8 percent on the whole works for 8 cents a litre? Should they only tax the 25 percent that is not taxed already? That would have only raised the price per litre about 2 cents.

 

 

Pretty sure we were already paying taxes on gasoline tax so now we're paying a tax on a tax on the taxes.

 

I'm just glad I can HONESTLY say I didn't vote for these thieves that imposed this on us.

 

Holy Gezzz, 4 posts while I was typing.

Grimace "buddy" Do you want to run in the next election, you got my vote buddy. Very good point

 

Lew, also good point. but you don't want to run, were getting to old for that bull. We got to go buddy

[JohnF]

Pretty sure we were already paying taxes on gasoline tax so now we're paying a tax on a tax on the taxes.

 

I'm just glad I can HONESTLY say I didn't vote for these thieves that imposed this on us.

 

Yup. No defending government sneakiness there. They are levying special taxes on gas at the rate of 14.7 cents but not calling it pst. Therefore the new pst component of the HST is a tax on a tax like the GST has been all along.

 

As for who you voted for - does it really matter? Is there any reason to think the politicians with the red flag or the orange one or whatever will treat us any more fairly. Remember this new tax has come about through the complicity of a red party at one level and a blue party at another. It's all about politicial party obfuscation. Is there any logic to saying we should all vote Liberal federally and PC provincially? Can the two levels of party really be seen as different entities with diametrically opposed ideologies. The Ontario Libs will wear the horns for this HST when in fact it was the PC's that imposed it through what amounted to financial blackmail to the tune of billions in transfer payments. I'm not pro-Liberal here but I'm not sure it's fair to lay all the blame on them. They may just be making the best of a bad situation. By that I mean looking for ways to get more money out of us while pointing the finger at the Canadian PC's for making it happen. As far as I'm concerned there's no party deserving my vote but logically I'll vote the way I figure will do us the least harm. That's getting tougher to read though.

 

JF

[lew]

 

As for who you voted for - does it really matter? Is there any reason to think the politicians with the red flag or the orange one or whatever will treat us any more fairly.

 

 

And therein lies the really sad truth John.....

[Grimace]

Exactly John. Exactly Correct. This is the centre of my angst because I know I am helpless as a voter. It was so funny watching Ignatieff criticize Harper for the G20 cost (which I personally totally oppose). Like he would have done any different.

 

I have a severe distaste for all of them. None of them represent my interests. Half of them want to give my money to the poor and the other half want to give it to the rich.

[Beans]

I'm looking at the handy-dandy booklet that the Ontario Province sent us...no tax on "Basic Groceries(e.g., Dairy, Meat, Vegetables, Canned Goods)"

 

How bloody gullible do they think we are...if the price of gasoline goes up...the cost of these goods will go up accordingly...

 

The worst for me is still the tax on Funerals...now 13%...Friggen Ghouls...

[Grimace]

I forgot about that one Beans. They tax you one last time as your family weeps over your dead body.

 

That just cheered me up. Ugh.

[Fish4Eyes]

The worst for me is still the tax on Funerals...now 13%...Friggen Ghouls...

 

In place just in time, so they can cash in when the baby boomers start to drop.

[camillj]

Nope .. not quite the last time .... after the funeral there is gonna be HST on every ones cab fare home ... cause you KNOW they would never drink and drive

[Dutch]

I am not looking forward to paying more in tax, that is a given, but I do understand that the taxes we pay go toward to standard of living.

 

If we weren't going to be paying more through the HST, we would be paying more income tax - it is as simple as that.

 

Until the govvernment, whether it be Liberal, NDP or conservative can figure out a way to control spending, the only other alternative is to increase taxes or other revenues (fines etc.).

 

There is a spending problem somewhere along the lines, but no government wants to cut services to save money. A huge percentage of the budget is healthcare - no government will cut service there. Public sector wages - nope, unions are too powerful. Education - get a life, the teachers will go mad if wages are cut.

 

The HST is a necessary evil with the way spending is out of control. In the purest form it is just another way to redistribute wealth. Those that make more, spend more and will pay more tax, both HST and income tax. Those tax revenues are then used to pay for social programs and healthcare that benefit all levels of income earners.

 

Yes, the result is some things are now taxed more heavily, but for the majority of items, the tax rate stays the same - it is just the more popular items that people use more of (e.g. gas and heating oil) that get the most attention. For most people the impact is probably smaller than a 0.5% increase in income tax would be (though I doubt there'd be nearly as much backlash about income tax rates going up 0.5%)

 

Am I happy about the HST - no way, but unfortunately there is no way to stop it. The Liberals will get voted out over it, that's certain, but I guarantee no other government will come in and repeal it without an offseting increase in income taxes.

[pikehunter]

It's going to strengthen the underground economy even more than the GST did. So many "handymen" running around now working cash jobs and it's going to get worse now. So much for the legit tax collecting and tax paying contractors.

[Guest Johnny Bass]

I tried to answer in the "at the pumps" thread but for whatever reason it wouldn't post. Here's what I wrote.

 

Well, it seems to me the best thing for us all to do right now is suck it up and move on. If you feel really strongly about it express yourself in the next election. But pay close attention to the promises the other parties are making about rescinding this tax. I have a pretty good hunch they won't be doing anything like that.

 

Yeah, it sucks that I have to collect an extra 8% or $800 on a $200,000 sale assuming a commission rate of 5%. Keep in mind though that there is no set commission rate in Ontario so I suspect a lot of smarter realtors aren't going to blow a listing for a few hundred bucks. Commissions have always been negotiable before and now we just have one more factor to throw into the negotiating equation.

 

And as for new homes, at least under $400,000 there's a pretty substantial rebate in place. Eventually if the builders play fair most of the extra should actually disappear. Naturally some of them will take advantage of the circumstances to pad the profit margin and let the govt take the heat for it.

 

The long and short of it is that all the pissing and moaning in the world won't make the new tax go away. The provincial govt is stuck with it and so are we.

 

As much as it pains me to admit it the new tax is probably the right way to go. It's about time the governments started paring away some of the bureaucratic lard. Now, once we get used to it, we'll just have one tax collection infrastructure instead of two and for many of us with deductible expenses it'll one day be to our advantage. Talk to some of the business people you know. Odds are pretty good they'll tell you they like the tax for a whole bunch of reasons.

 

Don't let the politicians wind you up against the other party over something they themselves wouldn't change and almost certainly would have had to do themselves if they'd been in power. In reality the extra tax is really only on a limited number of things that weren't already subject to the two taxes.

 

If you want to put some heat on somebody over this start asking some of the product suppliers if they're reducing prices to reflect the provincial tax change. How many products will you be paying the new tax on when the price you're paying still includes the 8% from the old tax collection system?

 

Sorry if I've let any of you down with my lack of angst but I'm just grinning and bearing it. It's not great right now but it's nowhere near as horrible as some of the opposition politicians and special interest groups would have you believe.

 

JF

 

Basically what John is trying to say is the tax is good for his business and businessmen alike, so we consumers have to suck it up.

 

Mcguinty should be thrown out of office and any politician that does not want to rescind the HST or the GST for that mater, should not be elected. Its bad enough we were paying 7% PST!!!

 

Unfortunately, it is the small majority that is the wealthy that make the most noise. If the consumers who are the majority rose up and made themselves heard, I would show you how fast the tax gets rescinded.

[Dutch]

It's going to strengthen the underground economy even more than the GST did. So many "handymen" running around now working cash jobs and it's going to get worse now. So much for the legit tax collecting and tax paying contractors.

 

The only thing you can do with the underground economy is report the offenders. Many that partake are not the kind of people you would want doing business anyway. If they cut corners on taxes, just think of the corners they cut in actually doing the job!

 

The underground econ. costs us all money as it takes tax revenue directly from healthcare and everything else legitimate taxpayers support. The underground econ. is the reason our taxes are so high as it is. All the government has to do is introduce rewards for reporting these people and we would be further ahead. If everyone were to legitimately pay the taxes they owe, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in with such high income and excise taxes.

 

Next time anyone says they will accept cash, you should get a discount of at least 40%, not just the 13% HST. Think about the income taxes the fraudster is saving as well.

 

We should have a forum on OFC to report underground econ. to Michael Brown - I'm sure he would be interested in paying a visit to unscroupulous business owners.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Dutch