Heads Up for Hunters and Gun Owners with semi auto long guns

[Garyv]

Just a heads up that the Liberals are now trying to put legislation in place that would make semi auto shotguns and rifles prohibited weapons. More information regarding this can be found in the Ontario Out of Doors edition for Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters members on page 2. This new Resolution # 47 is still being sought even after resolution #42 was withdrawn. 47 is a resolution calling for "Legislation to eliminate the personal use of automatic and semi-automatic weapons"

Edited March 5, 2007 by Garyv

[Big Cliff]

Automatics for hunting??????????? I don't see any point in them and you sure wouldn't need one for target shooting. But semi automatics, well I can work the action on my pump almost as fast as you can pull the trigger on a semi..... so what is it going to be next, ban all guns that hold more than one bullet? We'll be back to muzzle loaders before long.

[Corey]

Resolution 47 is just proof of the liberals not actually knowing the laws already in place in out country. Automatic weapons are already prohibited, meaning only the people who have been grandfathered into a position where they can legally own automatic weapon can posess them. In addition to that, you cannot take the prohib out hunting or to the range anyhow.

 

If the liberals would actually educate themselves on the current Canadian law, they wouldn't get egg thrown in their face when they come up with resolutions like this.

[duber]

Now it's semi's next it will be pumps then all repeating guns.When will these brain dead people in Ottawa pull there heads out of that warm place they keep them and realize that we have to fight criminals not guns.I'm so sick of being penalized buy a goverment that is to spinless to make some laws that will actually fight crime.Make the penalties tougher and you will reduce crime.Life sentence for any crime comitted with a firearm would be a start.The money wasted on the registry would have but alot of criminals behind bars.

 

There's my little rant on the subject.

[trapshooter]

Now it's semi's next it will be pumps then all repeating guns.When will these brain dead people in Ottawa pull there heads out of that warm place they keep them and realize that we have to fight criminals not guns.I'm so sick of being penalized buy a goverment that is to spinless to make some laws that will actually fight crime.Make the penalties tougher and you will reduce crime.Life sentence for any crime comitted with a firearm would be a start.The money wasted on the registry would have but alot of criminals behind bars.

 

There's my little rant on the subject.

 

 

Exactly. The libs target the law abiding gun owners instead of going after criminals who use guns in their crimes. Send a tough message of life in prison for a crime committed with a firearm. Get illegal guns off the street, fight the flow of illegal guns coming accross the boarder.

[jughead]

Can you guys give some justification and explanation.

 

I don't hunt and never have. I am not against hunting and let a neighbor hunt on my land for deer. I disagree with sport hunting but have no issue with people who hunt and eat what they kill. This isn't to say I'm right and you are wrong, just letting you know what my personal opinions are and where I stand on things before I ask some questions.

 

In general, I think hunters have to realize that the general population is likely less educated about hunting than I am and I pretty much know jack squat about guns.

 

When I hear phrases such as automatic and semi-automatic weapons my only real frame of reference makes me think of machine guns or similiar things. This strikes me as having no real use for hunters. The general public likely has the same impressions as I do.

 

I can respect the opinion that people might think that if they take away this then what will they take away next but I don't think government necessarily works that way.

 

To make the issue more clearer, I think those that do hunt need to better explain their position because at times it just comes across as the same posturing and rhetoric that you get with guys like Charleton Heston waving a weapon and saying from my cold dead hands. This makes me, and a good deal of others associate gun owners with some of the more distastful elements of the right.

 

I get that hunters aren't the issue when it comes to crime and that criminals will likely get guns irregardless of legislation. But, for the hunters on the board, can you clarify your position on not just weapons but what purpose/need there is for automatic and semi-automatic weapons. For someone who knows little about guns the idea that hunters don't need semi-automatic and automatic weapons makes sense.

 

I am not trying to be contentious or start a war or words but most of the rebuttals I have seen don't justify the need or the right to own these guns. Admittedly, part of that opinion is probably due to not fully understanding what they are and why they may be of use.

[ecmilley]

As far as I am concerned most gun legilation is a knee jerk reaction to appease the general public but in the end has no benefits of increased safety, what is needed is crime control, gun control doesn't work as you will never be removing the weapons from the criminal who will continue to use the black market gun highways from the states.

As for justifying the need, the public is pretty much brainwashed on the semi-auto in use by sportsman while the news outlets enjoy showing us photos of ak-47's and M-16's the firearms used for hunting usually hold less than 5 rounds. justifacation of a semi is easy just pull the trigger no fumbling with a pump or a bolt or a lever for that matter, they enable more steady shooting for the average joe (safer shooting) on top of all that they really look no different from any other rifle or shotgun.

if i can think of anything else...

[huntervasili]

Personally I Shoot bolt action Rifles and over/under shotguns (occasionally a semi-auto shot gun) Just want to clarify the difference between Semi-automatic and automatic firearms...

A semi-automatic will fire one shot with each pull of the trigger (legal while hunting, but must contain 3 or fewer shells in a shotgun)

An Automatic will continuously fire with one pull of the trigger until either the bullets run out or pressure is released from the trigger (prohibited and only acquireable by a grandfather clause) These are Illegal to hunt with and have no use while hunting.

 

Unfortunataly approx. 2 billion of our dollars have been spent on the gun registry and it has often acted as a tool for criminals to find who has firearms which could be stolen and the dealt on the street... personally my stance is as follows... I think that a ban of semi-automatics is extremely unreasonable for several reasons. Firstly it will pave the way for future restrictions and bans on firearms ruining shooting sports and hunting as we know it today. As well a semiautomatic although it can shoot fairly quickly is no more dangerous than a pump which has a manual cycle or any other firearm which cycles on its own... Automatics In my opinion are useless and are already strictly regulated and illegal for hunting and most people... Either way, these bans cannot be allowed because it will eventually lead to the loss of heritage and the eventual cease of hunting. That will be my little thought for the day ... great now I am out of breath

[Clampet]

Here's a Law that should be enacted:

Anyone caught with a handgun in his or her possession that is not registered and not being comissioned for the use on a firing range should be picked up, and incarcerated until they appear b4 a judge, and they should get 10 years minimum.

Then watch how quickly the handguns and associated crimes miraculously dry up.

 

Scenario:

 

Police officer happens upon some suspect, finds a handgun.

Suspect loaded into cruiser, deposited into jail cell.

Suspect waits 1 year for court case in jail.

Suspect appears b4 judge.

Judge hands down 10 year sentence.

 

Next!

The End....

[fishforfun]

Jughead definition of a weapon:

A weapon is an item that is intended for use in combat - to injure, kill, disarm or incapacitate an opponent or victim, or to otherwise render resources non-functional or unavailable.

Hunters aren't engaged in combat they are hunting with a firearm. Sorry but the word weapon is thrown around far too much in these discussions and just aids the anti's in there mission.

[Daplumma]

The media here likes to throw around the word "automatic " weapons and "assault weapons" and then slip in the word semiautomatic along with them.Sometimes they call semiautomatics assault weapons.There is a world of differance between the two.Automatics are for the most part banned whereas a semiautomatic is very legal and very common.I have a couple of 22's that are semi's lots of fun to plink with.My hunting rifles are bolt action, more accurate and less to go wrong under adverse conditions.The shotguns I own are pump or single shot.I see no use for automatics in a hunting situation.I guess the point is dont be fooled by the media into thinking that semi automatics are in the same cataglory as automatics.

Joe

[bigfish1965]

Okay..clearly few have actually read the page which is being referred to.

The resolutions are POLICY resolutions passed by the caucus and not bills in front of the House. The Liberals are not in power, the Conservatives are.

Resolution 42 was withdrawn from the party's platform after numerous errors were found. Resolution 47 is still on the table (although its contents were not disclosed, they were called 'offensive') as a resolution to POLICY, not law.

Read first, then rant.

The tired old NRA logic that banning people hunting guns will lead to the banning of legitimate hunting guns has never held water here.

If you really need an AK-47, hunt something less armored.

[Garyv]

Okay..clearly few have actually read the page which is being referred to.

The resolutions are POLICY resolutions passed by the caucus and not bills in front of the House. The Liberals are not in power, the Conservatives are.

Resolution 42 was withdrawn from the party's platform after numerous errors were found. Resolution 47 is still on the table (although its contents were not disclosed, they were called 'offensive') as a resolution to POLICY, not law.

Read first, then rant.

The tired old NRA logic that banning people hunting guns will lead to the banning of legitimate hunting guns has never held water here.

If you really need an AK-47, hunt something less armored.

 

We have been at this point before and since I placed the original post let me clarify my reason for posting with some qualifying remarks. If you wish to lock or delete the post that is your right as a moderator and although I admittedly would not like it I will simply accept it as the censorship you have in you position.

 

 

Rick I don't want to get into a deep discussion on guns and gun laws but wish to point out that we will be most likely be heading into an election within the next few months and if the Liberals regain power, POLICY then becomes legislation. Without clarification of regulation #47 no one except those directly associated with or those that have taken the time to research the resolution ( and I would hope the OFAH has ) should make others aware of what is contained therein or at least cause those interested to do their own research. My purpose in posting this was, as you can see by my reference to the article and page in the magazine, to make those interested aware so they can do research to see if they are for or against this resolution before it has a chance to simply be enacted in the house and voted upon.

 

I also disagree on your statement regarding "banning people hunting guns will lead to the banning of legitimate hunting guns has never held water here. If you really need an AK-47, hunt something less armored."

 

Obviously you are not nor probably ever were a hunter of sport shooter. If you were you would realize that hunters and legitimate shooters in Canada have been singled out as the cause of crime in Canada and in particular Canadian cities, not those that commit the weapon crimes. To me a semi-auto 308 or 30-06 or for that matter a Browing, Winchester, or Remington shotgun is not a AK-47 but a tool that if used properly, can provide those who enjoy hunting as much pleasure as fishing does for you and I.

[Cookslav]

Semi-Automatics are a valuable Firearm for bird hunters in particular....pulling the trigger for 3 shots with out haveing to, pump and re-aim is great for us not so acurate guys LOL...

 

And I agree entirely with you Garry...

One step at a time Fire arms are being restricted to help lower crime rates...but its not the "LEGAL" guns comitting these crimes!!!!

Its criminals useing "ILLEGAL" guns.

 

The registry was a disaster that cost a fortune and solved not one crime....

The systems we have in place are good, and its made getting LEGAL guns difficult, and have inturn enforced strong Gun safety standards.

Fully Automatics are already Illegal, and I'm ok with that...

But to start banning Semi-automatics that have practical applications for Hunters is going to far....

How will banning a Semi-automatic help anything at all anyway? it makes zero sence to me?

 

Its time to start getting tougher on Criminals...not law abiding hunters, target shooters, and collectors.

[Northhunter]

The tired old NRA logic that banning people hunting guns will lead to the banning of legitimate hunting guns has never held water here.

If you really need an AK-47, hunt something less armored.

 

What would be considered "people hunting" guns are already prohibited or restricted here. You cannot legally hunt with or carry a repeating shotgun holding more than 3 rounds in Ontario (unsure of other provinces). Under the Criminal Code of Canada it is illegal to be in posession of a clip or magazine for use in a semi-automatic, centre fire rifle capable of holding more than 5 rounds. The only rifle caliber I'm aware of that doesn't fall into this category is .22 rimfire.

 

Fact: Registration has lead to confiscation in every country it has previously been implemented. I believe the most recent was Australia. The gangbangers in "T-dot" are already illegally importing, illegally selling, and illegally using guns that are illegal themselves. They don't care what's banned, prohibited, etc., but somehow this Liberal "policy" is supposed to save us

 

Jughead - semi-automatic guns have been used by hunters for a very long time without issue. Some of the advantages to an autoloading gun are quicker follow-up shots on wounded game. The guns immediately load another round after one has been fired, so someone who is disabled or somehow impaired in such a manner that they cannot work the action quickly can still hunt and fire after the initial shot, if need be.

A lot of autoloading shotguns are also gas-operated, meaning when a round is fired the gas and pressure produced by the gunpowder actually activates or "cycles" the action of the gun. This design can greatly reduce recoil. If you're of a 6'2", 230lb frame, that probably doesn't matter much. But if you're an average person firing heavy goose loads, it's a real advantage. If you're a youth, a woman, or just someone of a smaller stature, or someone who maybe has an injury... even more so. The difference can be such that it allows a larger gauge to be used that otherwise wouldn't be handled by the shooter, allowing in safer shooting practices and more ethical harvest of game.

I'm sure there's other scenarios and advantages, but those are the ones that come to mind at the moment.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Northhunter

[Big Cliff]

I have to say that I think this thread has generated some fantastic replies and some excellent points of view! Some real eye openers!

[misfish]

One shot, one kill.

 

Cliff,would it be so bad to go back to muzzel loading guns? They seem to be the newest trend these days along with archury.

 

Dont get me wrong,I own a semi 30-06. First rifle I have owned and I have to admit,I have only once of the 10 years of hunting ,had to pull the trigger more then once on an animal.

Shotguns well I tend to go with you Cliff on the pump to auto ratio,but this guy couldnt pump that fast,but have seen guys do it.

 

I will admit though,I do enjoy the archury season. To me the gun season is an additional time out for me now as before, it was the other way around.

 

Black powder season,also gives you another week of hunting.

 

I dont know,maybe it,s all the Bull these days going on out in this world that makes some of us say,WHAT EVER,they,ll do what they want anyways.

[jughead]

Thanks all for offering the opinions and clarity.

 

I think it is important to remember that the % of people who hunt and regularily use weapons isn't a large part of the country. Much like fishing, we tend to gravitate towards like minded people and end up with lots of friends who share the interest but that doesn't mean that those numbers reflect the typical views of canadians with respect to going out and fishing.

 

For most Canadians, our views on firearms and weapons don't include much distinction beyond thinking there are three basic types - handguns, rifles and automatic weapons.

 

Maybe with more time by both sides rationally explaining their positions for and against guns the issue would be less clouded. I have learned things from this thread I didn't know. It hasn't radicallty changed my opinion on guns much but it has given me a bit more understanding on the position of hunters.

Edited March 6, 2007 by jughead

[duber]

Lets see if I can get a fishermans view on this.

 

Lets say a gangbanger robs a gas station using a 7 foot long fishing rod.He pokes the attendent in both eyes threw the saftey glass , blinding the attendent and gets away with the cash.Of course he tells all of his gangbanging buddies about how well it works.Next thing you now all of these gangbangers are using fishing poles to get their cash to buy all their "bling-bling" and BMW's.So the liberals in there ultimate wisdom decide to ban all fishing poles over 6 feet.The general public says "well you can catch fish with a 6 foot pole you don't need a 7 foot pole".Same deal,you are penilizing honest sportsmen and you have just lost a tool in the sport we all love.We can get by without it but it starts to ruin the sport.

[Northhunter]

Thanks all for offering the opinions and clarity.

 

I think it is important to remember that the % of people who hunt and regularily use weapons isn't a large part of the country. Much like fishing, we tend to gravitate towards like minded people and end up with lots of friends who share the interest but that doesn't mean that those numbers reflect the typical views of canadians with respect to going out and fishing.

 

For most Canadians, our views on firearms and weapons don't include much distinction beyond thinking there are three basic types - handguns, rifles and automatic weapons.

 

Maybe with more time by both sides rationally explaining their positions for and against guns the issue would be less clouded. I have learned things from this thread I didn't know. It hasn't radicallty changed my opinion on guns much but it has given me a bit more understanding on the position of hunters.

 

We are a minority, but only when you include the big cities. Take Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver out of the equation and it's a whole new ballpark. Rural Canada is a far cry from someplace like the GTA. I'm from a small northern town (not that small, but in comparison..). Growing up I and my father hunted, as well as the fathers and sons living on either side of us. Same with a family that lived across the street. A lot of my buddies in school hunted and came from "hunting families" as well. Most people camped and fished and the majority of those also hunted or used guns to some extent. If you didn't, you were likely close to someone who did.

 

The problem is the demographic of the big cities (10% of the population in the GTA alone) and the politics involved (remember the spring bear hunt fiasco?). That and the fact that those of the "anti" mindset are not rational. They lie and distort the facts to push their cause. As an example, there's a stat floating around, put out by those supporting the registration, that the registry has been used so many times (forget the number - it sounds impressive) by our police forces since registration started. What they don't say is that the stat is actually generated by traffic stops. When the plate/liscense is run, the computer also accesses the registry (that's based on memory from what I read, so it may not be entirely "on", but it's close).

 

IMO, the worst are the relatives (mothers in particular) of those who have been lost to gun crime. Don't get me wrong, I feel for them. But a few of them seem to dedicate their lives to pursuing tougher gun laws and become irrational somewhere along the way. Forget it was a criminal on the street that took their loved one, or that no form of gun control would have prevented the tragedy, in their mind the gun has to go and everything will be peachy keen. They are relentless, and it gets to the media. Then people like yourself (not a gun owner/user, not familiar with the situation, and does not particularly have a stance) gets the story.. but mostly one side of it. Enough people take notice and/or get involved and then it snowballs into stuff like this Resolution #47... and for what??

The whole Kimveer Gill (one messed up cookie) situation a while ago threw a lot of $h!t at the fan. He did something with a legally acquired, registered gun that the current laws did nothing to prevent. So what does the Liberal government do? Forget that what they've already implemented isn't working and throwing BILLIONS of dollars away in the process, or that they've lost much of the public support they had for it... lets go after the good guys some more. Their actions are telling me they are anti-gun, plain and simple. "As all firearms are potentially dangerous, all firearms need to be regulated, and all firearms owners regularly screened. " - That's a recent quote from a certain Wendy Cukier, president for the Coalition of Gun Control, who at one point was actually on the Liberal payroll (maybe still is? I dunno).

 

I could go on, but I kinda got into an unintentional rant there. One last thing I will mention is that the term "semi-automatic" is being misused. It is being used in reference to guns that are actually autoloaders, which cycle on their own. By definition, any gun that fires a single shot when the trigger is pulled is a semi-automatic, so that includes any type of break, pump, lever or bolt action firearm. Repeating or not.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Northhunter

[Bernie]

Just counted all the houses on my street. There are 54. I then counted the ones that I know are hunters. 34 of them I know for sure are and a couple not sure. There are several widows on the street that I know that their husbands used to hunt that I did not include. So Northhunter is correct about percentages. I live in a small community here and other communities nearby are similar. So its quite unfair for the larger population base to control our way of life here. "Semi autos" are used extensively and are no more dangerous than a pump or lever, just nicer to use. Certainly no more accurate.