Steelhead Lake Limits

[silverstreak]

I have been reading quite a few post's on here lately about the great Steelhead fishing in Lake O out of Port Hope. According to the pic's I have seen it seems as though limits are Taken most times out.

The Lake limit on Steelhead is 5 for a sportfishing License and 2 for a conservation Licence.

IMO the Lake limit is to high especially since the River Anglers agreed to have thier limit cut down to 2 fish in order to help the population rebound because of low returns.

Keep in mind that there is NO steelhead stocking East of the Rouge so those fisheries lying East of there rely soley on Natural Reproduction.

Also keep in mind that the Ganny only received a run of 3,500 fish this past spring (lowest in the 20 yrs I have fished there)

It is a shame to think all those fish I am releasing upstream are ending up in the bottom of coolers out in Lake O.

Not picking on the Charter Boat guy's entirely as they are fishing according to the current Regualtions however the spawning population is close to a all time low and every little bit helps.

Keep in mind that the MNR does not stock this area instead reallying on Natural reproduction to sustain the fishery so the "More Stocking" argument can be ruled out.

Interested in your thoughts on this matter however lets have a civil debate and not a mud slinging war afterall this post is in the spirit of conservation.

Thanks all.

[Sinker]

I'd be fine with a 2 fish limit on the lake or river........

 

Inland bows are a different story though, I like to keep my 5 of those ones

 

S.

[aniceguy]

as I sit on the FMZ for the lake and am part of the advisory matrix this is the current thing we are working on as we speak while I cant get into details its a hot topic.

 

Just an FYI going from 5 to 2 fish decreases harvest by 2% in reality it does 0 to it other then the optics of it. If I can figure out how to post a pdf here I can post some great presentations I made to this topic

 

The important question that needs to be asked is what recreational anglers want in a fishery as you cant really come to any concencus until that issue is resloved so what type of recreational fishery do we want to create in Zone 20 for Rainbow Trout

 

1. Do we want a fishery with more fish and larger average size fish ( ie a trophy fishery)

2. Do we want a fishery with smaller fish and less fish overall ( a non sustainable fishery)

3. Do we want A healthy fishery that’s self sustaining wild and not dependant on supplemental stocking ( a wild fishery)

4. Do we want a put delay and take fishery that’s dependant on continual stocking

 

I think that through the Lake Ontario Fish Community Objectives (GLFC), and SPOF II (MNR), number 3 is already the default and it is just a matter of choosing option 1 or 2 to drive the fishery and see where it goes, as I don’t think a sustainable fishery is capable at a drop from 5 to 2. While its great optics it doesn’t support current OMNR policy and sadly they believe baby steps are needed first.

 

At the end of the day what sort of fishery do you want as many see apples many see oranges.

 

I will tell you 1 thing though out east the off shore fishery should have an even more restricitve limit for out of province anglers.

 

Remember 1 thing the lake needs to be dealt with as an enitre fish community, whats done to asist 1 fish might hinder another, and as such a whole new group of stakeholders open up.

 

GB has 3 fish on bass with fish populations that IMO are in good shape, why that reg change occured I ll never know....... imagine if Lake O went there the financial impact to say commercial netters in quinte as bass increase with by catch, the bass tournament trail and its removal from zone 20 or the alwiefe population if there is a cold winter and we stock over stock at the same time a minor bait crash happens. Its a big lake with lots of fish and even more interaction on decisions made

Edited June 21, 2009 by aniceguy

[Sinker]

I will tell you 1 thing though out east the off shore fishery should have an even mor restricitve limit for out of province anglers.

 

 

Just an FYI going from 5 to 2 fish decreases harvest by 2%

 

I can't figure the math that only gets a 2% decrease in harvest, when the limit is dropped by over 50%? How does that work?

 

S.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Sinker

[aniceguy]

said it without saying it eh sinker

 

its based on creel data, while the limit says 5 many only take 1 or 2 and a very small percentage harvest over that

5 fish equals around 35% harvest 2 fish equal 32% or so

 

flip me your email and I ll send you a pdf on it sinker

Edited June 21, 2009 by aniceguy

[yo_guy]

I'm sure this post was made after witnessing my report below and this is why I did not post any numbers of fish or how many we kept on our outting. I'm a big steelheader fan myself and you won't see me keeping my 2 limit on the ganny river but at times I'll take 1 home. However, if I am on the open water I have no problem keeping my 2 fish after they are done spawning. Heck, the cost of fuel, boat etc... justify enough to keep some fish. You hardly see anybody keeping 5 fish plus it's not always that easy on a boat. It's a needle in a haystack out there!!!

 

Their are many reasons why there were fewer fish counts this year on the ganny and to say "It is a shame to think all those fish I am releasing upstream are ending up in the bottom of coolers out in Lake O." is not fair or better yet how many times a shore angler can fish during a week or how many fish released in the river survived or excerted so the guy down river can perform the easy picking drift and tire it some more? We don't!

 

I'm sure if we add up the amount anglers who can afford a boat or afford a charter outting for that matter vs those who have access to the river in walking distance during spawning time would be much greater plus you don't need any special equipment like the guys out on the boat. Take a look at the ganny or any nearby creeks during the fall and spring run and witness how many fish gets pulled out of the water just for the eggs and as a result the carcasses are left in the bushes or on the river banks. The shore anglers never agreed to lowering the limit to 2 fish they were enforced too simply because shore fishing was showing it's negative impact to the rainbow fishery.

 

We see guy on the river who will fight there fish to it's very last breath using really light leaders to get an increase hookup percentage so they can brag about their double digit days and that seems to be ok. Also, poor release and handling happens very often without knowingly and as a result some of the fish will go belly up floating down stream. It's better to see those fish harvest than to see it go to waste.

 

It's like I said before their are many reasons or explanations as to why things happen. If we are so worried about the low fish count at the fish ladder we should just close the rainbow season and make it a sanctuary from early fall to end of April? That should increase the count for the following season but wait now we don't have enough bait fish and the fish will die. It's a balancing act!!!

[CLofchik]

If you think the lower numbers of steelhead in Ontario streams is because there's more offshore pressure on them than 20 years ago I have a friend that's a Nigerian prince who needs to move some money out of his country.

[silverstreak]

However, if I am on the open water I have no problem keeping my 2 fish after they are done spawning. Heck, the cost of fuel, boat etc... justify enough to keep some fish.

 

I have no prob with someone keeping a couple however this must have an accumulative affect on the Steelhead population especially when the charter boaters are out every other day.

Speaking for myself.....I do not feel the need to take a wild steelhead home just because of the cost of fuel,Truck cost's etc. For me, those fish are far more valuable.

 

Take a look at the ganny or any nearby creeks during the fall and spring run and witness how many fish gets pulled out of the water just for the eggs and as a result the carcasses are left in the bushes or on the river banks. The shore anglers never agreed to lowering the limit to 2 fish they were enforced too simply because shore fishing was showing it's negative impact to the rainbow fishery.

 

I must admit that I see less and less fish exiting the streams in green garbage bags each yr.

Yes the roe guy's still take some fish but more and more Anglers are realising the benifits of artificials.

thus releasing more of their catch.

As for the 2 fish limit .....everyone had a vote on the issue via the Environmental Bill of Rights.

A lot of conservation/steelhead groups also chimmed in for the 2 fish limit.

 

We see guy on the river who will fight there fish to it's very last breath using really light leaders to get an increase hookup percentage so they can brag about their double digit days and that seems to be ok.

 

Can't say I agree with this one either especially with the advent of fluorocarbon.5 and 6 lb leaders are now the norm.

 

It's like I said before their are many reasons or explanations as to why things happen. If we are so worried about the low fish count at the fish ladder we should just close the rainbow season and make it a sanctuary from early fall to end of April? That should increase the count for the following season but wait now we don't have enough bait fish and the fish will die. It's a balancing act!!!

 

 

Or we can drop the Lake limit to match that of the stream.

I find it rather sad that the Lake limit on Steelhead is the same as Chinooks( 5 fish depending on your license) especially when the Chinny's are higher on the stocking scale.

[Terry]

in the 80s there were traffic jams out there, there were so many boats........the numbers may be up this year but over all the number of boats are way down from years gone by, so I have no problem with someone paying for a charter once a year and keeping 5

I am sure a guy that fishes the river on a regular bases and lets them all go kills far more

[silverstreak]

in the 80s there were traffic jams out there, there were so many boats........the numbers may be up this year but over all the number of boats are way down from years gone by, so I have no problem with someone paying for a charter once a year and keeping 5

I am sure a guy that fishes the river on a regular bases and lets them all go kills far more

How do you figure a C& R angler Kills far more.......do you have any stats to back that up.

Cheers.

[Guest steel'n'esox]

Steelhead limits in the lake should also be the same as the rivers at 2 fish. Charter boats taking out 6 clients can catch and keep 30 fish, which is legal at present, but needs to be addressed immediately as it only took about 8 years to drop the river fish quota.

[fish_finder]

I have been reading quite a few post's on here lately about the great Steelhead fishing in Lake O out of Port Hope. According to the pic's I have seen it seems as though limits are Taken most times out.

The Lake limit on Steelhead is 5 for a sportfishing License and 2 for a conservation Licence.

IMO the Lake limit is to high especially since the River Anglers agreed to have thier limit cut down to 2 fish in order to help the population rebound because of low returns.

Keep in mind that there is NO steelhead stocking East of the Rouge so those fisheries lying East of there rely soley on Natural Reproduction.

Also keep in mind that the Ganny only received a run of 3,500 fish this past spring (lowest in the 20 yrs I have fished there)

It is a shame to think all those fish I am releasing upstream are ending up in the bottom of coolers out in Lake O.

Not picking on the Charter Boat guy's entirely as they are fishing according to the current Regualtions however the spawning population is close to a all time low and every little bit helps.

Keep in mind that the MNR does not stock this area instead reallying on Natural reproduction to sustain the fishery so the "More Stocking" argument can be ruled out.

Interested in your thoughts on this matter however lets have a civil debate and not a mud slinging war afterall this post is in the spirit of conservation.

Thanks all.

 

Its a difference in mentality really.......some are out there to get there limit, some are out to enjoy a day of fishing Its kind of funny really....when you hear folks say they used to get out and catch their limit in an hour and now they can't even get their "limit" in a day....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......I wonder why.

 

Practice catch and release........its obviously "cheaper" to buy your fish at the supermarket if you really need your "limit".

[BillM]

There is no reason someone needs to keep 5 steelhead in a single outing... Honestly, that's a crapload of fish.

 

Even one decent sized one is more then enough to feed the wife and kids..

 

I wonder how many people who limit out on bows everytime they go out have already consumed the previous limit? or are the previous days limits still in the freezer?

[CLofchik]

I find it rather sad that the Lake limit on Steelhead is the same as Chinooks( 5 fish depending on your license) especially when the Chinny's are higher on the stocking scale.

 

The MNR stocks more browns & bows than chinooks in Lake O.

 

How do you figure a C& R angler Kills far more.......do you have any stats to back that up.

Cheers.

 

About one in three C&R rainbows will die. That's averaging out all the variables throughout the year, in a nutshell the colder the water the better their chances for survival. A good number of spawned out fish caught in 60+ degree water in May won't live to see the lake again, no matter how much care there is in releasing them.

 

Plus your argument is making two giant suppositions.

 

1) Natural reproduction is replacing spawners enough to sustain the population.

 

2) Fish caught offshore are actually wild Ontario fish.

 

It is questionable whether either is true. You can stock a trout pond with rainbows, but making it C&R only doesn't mean you'll be catching fish in 10 years.

[Terry]

there are lots of reports that a % of released fish die, whether by miss handling or deeply hooked

 

and it is more than easy to see if someone fishes a stream regularly, they will kill more fish then the guy who goes one a year and keeps his limit....

 

everyone wants to protect their fishing hole, their way of fishing, their perfect fishing ethics and can't understand how people could have different view, ethics or understanding of the importance of your favorite fish.........

[silverstreak]

The MNR stocks more browns & bows than chinooks in Lake O.

 

 

 

About one in three C&R rainbows will die. That's averaging out all the variables throughout the year, in a nutshell the colder the water the better their chances for survival. A good number of spawned out fish caught in 60+ degree water in May won't live to see the lake again, no matter how much care there is in releasing them.

 

Plus your argument is making two giant suppositions.

 

1) Natural reproduction is replacing spawners enough to sustain the population.

 

2) Fish caught offshore are actually wild Ontario fish.

 

It is questionable whether either is true. You can stock a trout pond with rainbows, but making it C&R only doesn't mean you'll be catching fish in 10 years.

Clofchik

Can you please state your sources of information as this will give your argument some sort of credibility.

For instance..... you suggest that the MNR stocked more Browns and Bows than chinooks.

According to the 2008 Lake Ontario Management Report the were 177,133 Browns stocked, 172,133 Rainbows stocked and 527,035 Chinook stocked.

In reality there were more Chinook stocked then Browns and Bows combined.

Can you also please state your source for steelhead survival rates as your discription above.

Cheers

[Headhunter]

In reality, if you are that concerned about the numbers of Bows caught on and released on Lake O, you sould really consider the following.

From some time in June, until September /October the vast majority of Bows caught on Lake O, will die upon release. When they are pulled up to the surface, the water temp there kills them. Some maybe lucky and have the hand of an experienced guide releasing them, with probably a higher number surviving, but by in large, most will die.

So, in reality, if you really want to "save" the Lake O bows for shore fishing, you will probably have to ban blue water trolling.

Good luck with that!

HH

[craigdritchie]

Keep in mind that there is NO steelhead stocking East of the Rouge so those fisheries lying East of there rely soley on Natural Reproduction.

 

Not really true. New York stocks a gazillion steelhead in the central and eastern portions of Lake Ontario. A lot of them wind up in Ontario boats, especially in mid-summer when fish from both sides of the lake mingle together in the shipping lanes way offshore. Not sure exactly what percentage of the steelhead boat catch is based on NY fish, but I remember it was pretty significant.

 

Louis .... do you happen to remember what the actual percentage is? I want to say about 40 percent but the last stuff I saw on this was a few years back.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Craig_Ritchie

[silverstreak]

Not really true. New York stocks a gazillion steelhead in the central and eastern portions of Lake Ontario. A lot of them wind up in Ontario boats, especially in mid-summer when fish from both sides of the lake mingle together in the shipping lanes way offshore. Not sure exactly what percentage of the steelhead boat catch is based on NY fish, but I remember it was pretty significant.

 

Louis .... do you happen to remember what the actual percentage is? I want to say about 40 percent but the last stuff I saw on this was a few years back.

Craig

I was refering to MNR stocking.

Not sure if you have seen the steelhead post's of late but in any event it was clear that the boat/ fish pic's were within sight of the Ganny shoreline hence that would make these fish in all likelyhood of natural Ganaraska origin.

[Hairpy]

The short term thinking really boggles my mind especially from a guides point of view. I would think they would want to get involved and protect their resources for the future. All stocking aside , if you are going to take fish home then please take the ones with missing fins as that is what they are there for and release the wild fish that are very important tothe genetic future! If you fish the Blue Zone you can increase your success of survival with these fish by staying within the top 30 fow and NOT netting them or holding them by the gillplate or a gaf.

 

You'll see these guys out there in a few years

 

 

 

Joseph

[CLofchik]

Clofchik

Can you please state your sources of information as this will give your argument some sort of credibility.

For instance..... you suggest that the MNR stocked more Browns and Bows than chinooks......

 

Well that's easy, the MNR doesn't stock a single chinook into Lake O. They are out of the pacific salmon business, and have been for years.

While some clubs are doing good things with rainbows, the majority of trout (rainbow, browns & lakers) are still stocked by the MNR I believe.

 

Not really true. New York stocks a gazillion steelhead in the central and eastern portions of Lake Ontario.....

 

What he said. And rainbows are more likely to stray than salmon, in reality if there was a serious non-biased look at the eastern bow fishery I'd wager that alot of the supposed "wild" fish that have been caught out of eastern tribs are in reality stray US fish. Natural reproduction, while better in the less developed, colder water of eastern tribs, I feel is overblown. There is no way natural reproduction can ever lead to a sustainable Lake O fishery at anything close to the present levels. If you want fish in Lake O, you need to stock them. Period. And there's nothing wrong with taking home planted fish.

 

And about rainbow C&R mortality, I don't have the info at hand because frankly I don't really fish for bows anymore and couldn't give a hoot either way. Most of the really well done studies have been done in BC (far far away from the MNR), I don't remember the guys name but it shouldn't be too hard to find it if you're really interested (careful though, you might not like it!). In a nutshell, the magic number is around 60 degrees, mortality starts to skyrocket if you start catching trout out of warm water.

[silverstreak]

Well that's easy, the MNR doesn't stock a single chinook into Lake O. They are out of the pacific salmon business, and have been for years.

While some clubs are doing good things with rainbows, the majority of trout (rainbow, browns & lakers) are still stocked by the MNR I believe.

 

 

 

What he said. And rainbows are more likely to stray than salmon, in reality if there was a serious non-biased look at the eastern bow fishery I'd wager that alot of the supposed "wild" fish that have been caught out of eastern tribs are in reality stray US fish. Natural reproduction, while better in the less developed, colder water of eastern tribs, I feel is overblown. There is no way natural reproduction can ever lead to a sustainable Lake O fishery at anything close to the present levels. If you want fish in Lake O, you need to stock them. Period. And there's nothing wrong with taking home planted fish.

 

And about rainbow C&R mortality, I don't have the info at hand because frankly I don't really fish for bows anymore and couldn't give a hoot either way. Most of the really well done studies have been done in BC (far far away from the MNR), I don't remember the guys name but it shouldn't be too hard to find it if you're really interested (careful though, you might not like it!). In a nutshell, the magic number is around 60 degrees, mortality starts to skyrocket if you start catching trout out of warm water.

Clofchik

According to the 2008 Lake Ont Management Report and I quote "During 2008,OMNR stocked about 1.7 million Salmon and Trout into Lake O".I know Private clubs are raising them however it seems the OMNR does still have a hand in the mix.

 

As for stray rates ....they do not amount to squat especially since the U.S. has been Pen Rearing thus cutting way down on those fish straying into other streams.

 

As for C & R mortality and 60 degree water temps..... seems to me this is a little flawed.

Speaking from personal experience (I always check water temps at least 3 times per outing)I can tell you that steelies are a little more resiliant then that infact I can tell you 5 Streams right now (but I won't) that have received fresh runs of steelhead as of last week.

I guess Alan Madden (A retired DNR Biologist) sums it up best when he say's " When a Salmonid dies from Angling, it is always due to improper handling, not Temperature" source: Atlantic Salmon Journal volume fifty three number three.

In any event, I have it under good Authority that Lake O. steelhead limit changes are in the wind.....that is Great news.

Thanks to all whom participated in this thread and thanks for keeping it civil.

Cheers

[CLofchik]

According to the 2008 Lake Ont Management Report and I quote "During 2008,OMNR stocked about 1.7 million Salmon and Trout into Lake O".I know Private clubs are raising them however it seems the OMNR does still have a hand in the mix.

 

The MNR negotiates with NYS on stocking quotas and sets the hatchery operation guidelines, but thats a very small hand to mix with. Regardless your argument that trout have a lower priority than pacific salmon with the MNR is silly and put to rest with your own quote. Out of 1.7 million fish stocked less than 1/3 are pacific salmon. NYS always stocks atleast half of their 3 million+ fish quota with chinooks, usually more than half of their hatchery fish will be pacific salmon depending on egg quantities they can collect. Anglers want pacific salmon, not the MNR.

 

As for stray rates ....they do not amount to squat especially since the U.S. has been Pen Rearing thus cutting way down on those fish straying into other streams.

 

And thus, Ontario runs have fallen. Thanks for proving my point

 

NYSDEC found the return rates between pen reared vs. river/harbour stocked trout to be around 6:1, or more than double the stray rate of pacific salmon. Where do you think those other five non-pen reared fish went? With NYS not in the business of subsidizing Ontario angling the increase of pen rearing will mean a slow but steady decrease of Ontario steelhead numbers. The picture isn't that gloomy from the Rouge west, thanks to the excellent work done by MEA, CRAA and other trout clubs. But out on eastern tribs if stocking doesn't start up again the fishery will slowly disappear. In the next few years expect the Ganny run to drop below 2000 fish.

 

Even with a zero fish limit.

[Hairpy]

A zero fish limit on unclipped bows couldn't hurt

 

Joseph

[camillj]

Hey ... here's a novel idea ... instead of whining about limits, let's convince the MNR that there is a body of fisherman who actually like to fish for AND eat fish ... then perhaps the funding for the programs that created these fisheries in the first place will be re-instated (or at least sustained)... lets face it in many cases these are fisheries that can ONLY be sustained by funding or by banning fishing altogether ... and I personally am in favour of the former ... dont get me wrong I am fully in favour of C&R for certain types of fish in certain waters (especially those species that will NEVER be able to sustain the pressure of fishing because of their longevity or in bodies of water that NO amount of fishing is sustainable... but I also love to catch what I eat ... its in my blood ... and I think there are more than a few of us who would like that to remain a viable sporting option.