boatman Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 i'm not a mechanic, nor do i know a heck of a lot about motors, just can speak from experience.. i went from a yammy 25hp 2-stroke to the f20 late last year.. i noticed a big difference in fuel consumption, but the 25 was fairly old, and something was buggered with it (hence it finally blowing up).. the f20 was brutal at first.. finally got the proper pitch prop and its golden now.. the only thing i've noticed is if i get a big 2nd guy in the boat it takes a while to plane out (it wont plane with 3 of us) whereas with the 25, i'd get it up on a plane fairly quickly (still wouldnt plane with 3 of us).. i'm not going to enter it in any races, but it gets me from spot to spot just fine.. its quiet, super easy to maintain (if i can winterize it, it's gotta be easy because me = dumb).. mike Excellent comment. You've basically compared both the subject motors in real life. Your results would suggest exactly what Sinker and I have been arguing. Getting on plane IS hole shot. Go with the 20 hp now and in two months you will be asking the age old queston "Do hydrofins really work?".
Bitsmith2k Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 Getting on plane IS hole shot. Go with the 20 hp now and in two months you will be asking the age old queston "Do hydrofins really work?". wow!.. that right there, is the gods honest truth.. i've thought about it more than a few times
pikehunter Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 4 Stroke. It's only 14 pounds or so heavier plus the weight of the starter, don't forget that is probably not included in the spec weight when you are comparing specs but they are close in weight unless there is a typo. Most comparable hp size motors are much heavier in a 4 stroke version. I went against the popular vote when I bought new a few years ago and purchased a 2 stroke. Ever since I have secretly envied 4 strokes when they glide past me in near silence. Actually I tried to get out of the motor part of my package deal when I found a good deal on a new but non current 20hp Honda at a different dealer for a little more $$ than my then current 25hp Johnson. The 4 stroke you are describing also has an electric starter and this is worth about half of the $500 difference in price. Also don't forget that the battery to power your electric starter is also going to add more weight to your boat. If you buy the 2 stroke you will always wonder if you should have bought the 4. If you buy the 4 you will always wonder if you should have bought the 2. It's a tough choice to make. If you are buying used then that is different, you buy the best cleanest motor for the price. As for smoke? I don't mind a little bit of it, good oil = less smoke, except for start up. I have also seen some 4 strokes on the water blowing some smoke too.
corvette1 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 2 stroke smoke 4 stroke no smoke if you troll 4 stroke all the way
DRIFTER_016 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 I'm highly doubting that........got anything to prove it? Just curious....... S. Just 15 years guiding experiance. We ran 30 horse 2 strokes at the lodge for years and when we switched to 4 strokes our fuel consumption dropped a between 40 and 50 percent. This is not based on a single event or even season but over 15 seasons of running one or the other for two to three months a year. Before we made the switch we were carrying 3 or 4 fuel tanks when we were making our longest runs but after the switch were able to cut back and carry only 2 and still have 1/2 a tank left after our longest day runs. With the 2 strokeswe would burn 1 to 1 1/2 tanks more.
DRIFTER_016 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 How so? The 20 hp will have less hole shot, less top speed, more strain underload. Fuel economy will be negligible. So why is it better? It's not a friggin' Bass boat it's a little john boat!!! You think he's going to be rocketing down the lake at 70.
DRIFTER_016 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 Excellent comment. You've basically compared both the subject motors in real life. Your results would suggest exactly what Sinker and I have been arguing. Getting on plane IS hole shot. Go with the 20 hp now and in two months you will be asking the age old queston "Do hydrofins really work?". Yes and he also noticed a big difference in fuel consumption which is what the rest of us were saying. So to the original question A/ if you're not a speed freak and want to save on fuel and not have to smell 2 stroke oil go with the four stroke. B/ if performance is your goal and you don't mind spending more on fuel and oil go with the two stroke.
boatman Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 It's not a friggin' Bass boat it's a little john boat!!! You think he's going to be rocketing down the lake at 70. No, he'll go about 40-45 kph with the 25 hp. The 20 hp will have to work harder than the 25 hp to maintain the same speed. Therefore, using more fuel and struggling to plane with heavier loads (ie two big guys and gear). That will make the fuel consumption a wash. However, he'll still miss those extra ponies. Any new 4 stroke will probably get 40% better fuel economy than my 1988 2 stroke. Then again, a new 2 stroke will get much better fuel economy than my motor too. If we were comparing two 25 hp or two 20 hp motors then I'd say get a 4 stroke, but we are not. I think too many of you are giving advice from your hearts not your heads.
boatman Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) Yes and he also noticed a big difference in fuel consumption which is what the rest of us were saying. So to the original question A/ if you're not a speed freak and want to save on fuel and not have to smell 2 stroke oil go with the four stroke. B/ if performance is your goal and you don't mind spending more on fuel and oil go with the two stroke. He was also comparing an old motor to an new one. My 1954 25 hp uses about 1/3 more fuel than my 1988, which probably uses 1/3 more than a new one. Either way, its a 25 hp. He won't be spending big bucks on fuel anyway. Its not an issue of being a speed freak. Its about setting up a boat that can do everything you need. Edited February 25, 2009 by boatman
GeorgeJ Posted February 25, 2009 Author Report Posted February 25, 2009 Thank You all very much, this thread did what I hoped it would. There was a lot of good lets call it debate on both 2 vs 4 stroke. A couple of comments brought it home for me though, one being said that a 20hp 4 st would not plane the boat with 3 guys in it, and with the previous old 25hp 2 st it would have. Another was a suggestion I'd be shopping for a hydro fin if I bought the 4 st. I have seen a lot of motors with these on them, I'm not sure if they work and I don't want to find out. I'm sure the 2 st will burn more fuel than the 4 but I'm prepared to spend extra on fuel for some extra performance. At a 100 to 1 mix running on synthetic I don't think smoke from the motor will be a big concern. I plan on running a bow mount to troll with which I will buy with the extra money I saved so that addresses trolling. I will miss the electric start and the fact the 4 st would be quieter but I'm already half deaf in my right ear so now with my left ear towards the motor maybe things will even out. That is about it so I put a deposit down on the 2 stroke 25 hp and will pick it up in March and never look back! Well hopefully never look back.
2 tone z71 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 its a Yamaha either way you wont be looking back congrats
DRIFTER_016 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 Thank You all very much, this thread did what I hoped it would. There was a lot of good lets call it debate on both 2 vs 4 stroke. A couple of comments brought it home for me though, one being said that a 20hp 4 st would not plane the boat with 3 guys in it, and with the previous old 25hp 2 st it would have. Another was a suggestion I'd be shopping for a hydro fin if I bought the 4 st. I have seen a lot of motors with these on them, I'm not sure if they work and I don't want to find out. I'm sure the 2 st will burn more fuel than the 4 but I'm prepared to spend extra on fuel for some extra performance. At a 100 to 1 mix running on synthetic I don't think smoke from the motor will be a big concern. I plan on running a bow mount to troll with which I will buy with the extra money I saved so that addresses trolling. I will miss the electric start and the fact the 4 st would be quieter but I'm already half deaf in my right ear so now with my left ear towards the motor maybe things will even out. That is about it so I put a deposit down on the 2 stroke 25 hp and will pick it up in March and never look back! Well hopefully never look back. Sounds great, good luck with it. I'm sure you will be happy with it. FYI, if you re-read that post, he actually said that it took a little longer to get on plane with two people (big person) and the smaller 4 stroke but neither engine would get up on plane with three people on board. the only thing i've noticed is if i get a big 2nd guy in the boat it takes a while to plane out (it wont plane with 3 of us) whereas with the 25, i'd get it up on a plane fairly quickly (still wouldnt plane with 3 of us)..
lookinforwalleye Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 Well I am glad that debate is over with!! Anybody wanna debate E-Tec versus 4 stroke or Yamaha vs. mercury. Just kidding!
GeorgeJ Posted February 25, 2009 Author Report Posted February 25, 2009 Sounds great, good luck with it.I'm sure you will be happy with it. FYI, if you re-read that post, he actually said that it took a little longer to get on plane with two people (big person) and the smaller 4 stroke but neither engine would get up on plane with three people on board. the only thing i've noticed is if i get a big 2nd guy in the boat it takes a while to plane out (it wont plane with 3 of us) whereas with the 25, i'd get it up on a plane fairly quickly (still wouldnt plane with 3 of us).. Yes right you are, I must have still been sleepy from my midnight shift. The fact that it would get on plane faster with 2 guys is still valid and that the old 2 stroke was pretty much on it's last legs still indicates a significant power difference. I'm hoping that a new 25hp will plane my boat with 3 or 4 people in it, depends a lot on weight distribution too. I almost started entertaining putting on a 30hp but didn't want to have issues with insurance or warranty on the boat.
lookinforwalleye Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 I would think a 25 would be hard pressed to get on plane with 4 people/gear on board.
boatman Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 Yes right you are, I must have still been sleepy from my midnight shift. The fact that it would get on plane faster with 2 guys is still valid and that the old 2 stroke was pretty much on it's last legs still indicates a significant power difference. I'm hoping that a new 25hp will plane my boat with 3 or 4 people in it, depends a lot on weight distribution too. I almost started entertaining putting on a 30hp but didn't want to have issues with insurance or warranty on the boat. Congratulations, you made the right choice. You won't be disappointed. Four people is probably outside of the max cap anyway. If you find you have any planing issues try trimming your motor differently. My 14' boat with a 30 hp planes two +200lbs guys no problem. With three guys it planes, but it runs better if I trim the motor out one pin to raise the bow.
Bernie Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 George. If you will be using the boat continually with a large load you may want to think about getting a smaller pitch propeller. This will allow the engine to stay in its powerband.
pikehunter Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 Congratulations! Glad to hear you made a choice. My 25 Johnson 2 stroke does fine with me in it alone, gets up on a plane real easy and flies over the surface beautifully. Now mind you I'm the size of 2 guys of average or slightly smaller stature. When I am in it with my son or a guest it is slower but does move along nicely. You will be happy I'm sure. Have good times doing lots of this
Whitespinnerbait Posted February 25, 2009 Report Posted February 25, 2009 ever gone slow on a nice day with a 2 stroke then have have the wind pick up slow at your back and enjoy the nice smell of 2 choke smoke. start a 2 choke up in the morning and be siting in a cloud of smoke. Couldn't take it anymore when that happened When out and bought a FOUR STROKE
Fishing 24/7 Posted February 26, 2009 Report Posted February 26, 2009 2 stoke #1 you guys talk about smoke ..... mine must be mint cause it dosent.
Tybo Posted February 26, 2009 Report Posted February 26, 2009 A new technology 2 stroke has less unburnt fuel in it's exhaust the a 4 stroke. New synthetic oils are biodegradable and have no ash. 2 stroke have more torque and are lighter,which mean the engine needs not to work as hard. In the research I have been doing. A 2 stroke gets about the same fuel consumption. So please tell me how a new 2 stroke can pollute worse the a 4 stroke. the emission restrictions are higher on 2 stroke then they are on 4. If you compare old to new technology. Nobody would be driving Japanese cars.
Fisherman Posted February 26, 2009 Report Posted February 26, 2009 A new technology 2 stroke has less unburnt fuel in it's exhaust the a 4 stroke.New synthetic oils are biodegradable and have no ash. 2 stroke have more torque and are lighter,which mean the engine needs not to work as hard. In the research I have been doing. A 2 stroke gets about the same fuel consumption. So please tell me how a new 2 stroke can pollute worse the a 4 stroke. the emission restrictions are higher on 2 stroke then they are on 4. If you compare old to new technology. Nobody would be driving Japanese cars. Well, makes you wonder why there's no 2 strokes in cars and trucks. Weight isn't much of a factor anymore., and shake, shake, shake your booty should be left on the dancefloor, not in the boat. I would also be sceptical of the emissions results of 2 strokes unless the motor is at full operating temps. I can't see spending $$$ for synthetic oil, just to blow it out the exhaust, bio or not.
GeorgeJ Posted February 26, 2009 Author Report Posted February 26, 2009 from what I have read about synthetic two stroke oil is not only is it cleaner burning it provides better lubrication for the engine.
boatman Posted February 27, 2009 Report Posted February 27, 2009 Well, makes you wonder why there's no 2 strokes in cars and trucks. Because back when cars were being invented/perfected the size of the 2 stroke engine required too move them would have been too noisey, caused too much vibration and used more fuel than 4 stroke engines. So the 4 stroke gas engine won the battle for automotive supremacy. It also beat out the steam and electric cars.
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