Bailout fails

[OhioFisherman]

It's what happens when you steal from your employer.

 

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Dang! I knew about the drug and alcohol problems but he stole from the auto companies too?

[OhioFisherman]

The president of the UAW makes around 150K, not bad money certainly not much compared to the execs at the auto companies.

 

Part of the auto companies problems are they didn`t properly fund their pensions a health care obligations to retirees. Much more important to have executives running around making millions and flying on corporate jets?

 

Much more important to pay lobbyist to make millions of dollars in campaign contributions to have it their way? The cost for the domestic auto makers is higher, how many of the foreign mfgs has been employed long enough at them to get a pension? Or retire and get healthcare? Most of these plants haven`t been in operation for 30 years.

 

LOL Litchfield Ohio, my home, me and the wife jokingly call it Litchtucky, a lot of southern folks here that came up to get jobs at the auto companies because there were no jobs at home. Wonder if they will reconsider the trips they make to Nashville, Dollywood, and places down south now? The home folks don`t seem to remember them much?

 

Funny how some of the southern states don`t have a state income tax to create a rainy day fund for their own citizens. They sure do run to Washington when they need a bailout after a hurricane! And the UAW and it`s workers help them?

 

LOL it`s still the war between the states and nothing Union sounds good down there. Just my opinion the economy is in shambles here, 4th consecutive month of a drop in retail sales, more jobs cuts and company bankruptcies announced today, a trend that needs to stop pretty quickly or this could be the new depression.

 

With all these people out of work what chance will your kids have?

[misfish]

Like I said many times,there was a time,but now it,s not.

 

Sorry,but ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5qjCZZZ5_s

[Wild]

The governments have no choice because we are on the line to cover the pension funds. Will Canada be smart enough to make sure that any profits made ( after the second round of bailouts of course) several years from now are used to pay off the pension fund deficits?

[EC1]

They probably only did it so that other companies that are close to bancruptcy won't just ask for money too.

I can almost bet that they are going to get the money within the next week.

[chris.brock]

Some of you guys are saying that the Japanese cars ar better engineered/ built. The last few years the gap has closed. Jap stuff getting worse, domestic stuff at par or better. I'm an autoworker but I don't blame you guys for not wanting the gov. bail-out. The problem is poor management and an even poorer economy. Our wage, benefits and pension account for 6 percent of the vehicle sticker price. We make a decent wage but I would like everyone to try running on the assembly line for 10 hours straight, 5 days a week and then come up with a figure to represent a fair wage.

 

To the "thank god I have a Nissan" guy- enjoy your Nissan, Hyundai or Kia, hopefully you can afford your next one though, because you may not have a job either

[sirfish]

Wow , there are some pretty harsh opinions on this "fishing forum". True colours of the pessimists are showing through like a rainbow. I am saving this whole discussion for future use in the event (god forbid) of an industrial collapse and I will post your original quotes one by one next to your post about being downsized ,layed off,let go, or someone you love that befells the same fate because of the collapse . Remember ,be careful what you wish for, it may rise up to bite you in the azz.

[sirfish]

Let them eat cake.

The employees need to realign their skills.

Let's face it, working on a assembly line probably requires the skillset of a 3 year old, with the paycheck of a CEO.

 

Pretty harsh generalization for someone behind a keyboard.

FYI , Many "line workers" have university degrees. Some have more than one. Some are related to the industry some not. In any case, most are highly skilled highly intelligent people whether you believe it or not. You my friend would not last a week doing what I do on a daily basis.

[OhioFisherman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBkrAESUbyI...feature=related

 

 

And this from FactCheck.org

 

December 11, 2008

Q:

 

Do auto workers really make more than $70 per hour?

How much does a UAW member make at a domestic auto plant? Various sites have cited the figure at an average of seventy-three dollars an hour (The Heritage Foundation). Keith Olbermann says that the figure is actually at twenty-eight before benefits, which only add ten dollars to the amount. Other sources indicate that Toyota workers (who are not unionized) made more last year after profit sharing was calculated. So clear it up for us. What's the real bottom line?

A:

 

No. That figure is derived from what the auto companies pay in wages, health, retirement and other benefits, and includes the cost of providing benefits to retirees.

A report from the conservative Heritage Foundation, opposing the auto industry bailout, said that members of the United Auto Workers union "earn $75 an hour in wages and benefits – almost triple the earnings of the average private sector worker." Later in the report, it's phrased this way: "The vast majority of UAW workers in Detroit today still earn $75 an hour."

 

That figure has caught hold with some conservatives, and it seeps into media coverage from time to time as well. A few examples: At a Nov. 19 House Financial Services Committee hearing on a possible bailout for the auto industry, Alabama Republican Rep. Spencer Bachus said, "Even with recent changes, the average hourly wage at General Motors is still $75 an hour. ..." Two of his GOP colleagues on the panel made similar statements. And in a Nov. 18 column in the New York Times, business reporter Andrew Ross Sorkin wrote, "At GM, as of 2007, the average worker was paid about $70 an hour, including health care and pension costs."

 

The problem is, that's just not true. The automakers say that the average wage earned by its unionized workers is about $29 per hour. So how does that climb to more than $70? Add in benefits: life insurance, health care, pension and so on. But not just the benefits that the current workers actually receive – after all, it's pretty rare for the value of a benefits package to add up to more than wages paid, even with a really, really good health plan in place. What's causing the number to balloon is the cost of providing benefits to tens of thousands of retired auto workers and their surviving spouses.

 

The automakers arrived at the $70+ figure by adding up all the costs associated with providing wages and benefits to current and retired workers and dividing the total by the number of hours worked by current employees.

 

Labor Costs Aren't the Same as Wages Earned

 

The result is the per-hour labor cost to the automakers, which is very different from "pay" or "wages" or even "wages and benefits" earned by their workers. As David Leonhardt pointed out in the New York Times (countering, in a sense, the earlier piece by Sorkin), the average GM, Ford and Chrysler worker receives compensation – wages, bonuses, overtime and paid time off – of about $40 an hour. Add in benefits such as health insurance and pensions and you get to about $55. Another $15 or so in benefits to retirees (known as "legacy costs") brings the number to roughly $70.

 

That last figure accounts for the biggest difference between labor costs of the Big Two and a Half and those of the "transplants," as foreign carmakers with manufacturing facilities on U.S. soil are called. Ford, in material it submitted to Congress for hearings this month (see "Congressional Submission Appendix (PPT)"), estimated the transplants' legacy costs at about $3 per hour, a number that has less to do with the level of benefits paid than it does with the fact that the transplants don't have many retirees yet, according to economist Kristin Dziczek of the Center for Automotive Research.

 

The Ford chart also estimates that, as a result of a historic 2007 labor agreement with the UAW, the legacy costs of the U.S. automakers are expected to fall – to about $3 per hour. That's because the deal calls for a new voluntary employee beneficiary association (or VEBA), a seldom-used 100-year-old tax loophole. A VEBA is a tax-exempt trust that can be used to fund almost any sort of employee benefit, but they are most commonly used to pay for health care expenses.

 

In an innovative twist, the UAW and Detroit negotiated a VEBA to cover the health care expenses of retired autoworkers. Under the terms of the agreement, GM, Ford and Chrysler were to contribute $30 billion, $13 billion and $9 billion, respectively, to a trust fund to be managed by the union. The UAW would then use the income from the VEBA to cover retiree medical expenses. The agreement would protect retirees’ health care benefits in the event of company bankruptcy, while allowing the automakers to shed the bulk of their legacy costs.

 

When the new agreement is fully implemented, which should happen in 2010, the U.S. automakers would still bear labor costs of about $9 per hour more than Toyota, but that's far better than the current gap. The 2007 agreement also calls for a new two-tier wage structure and other concessions from workers.

 

As for whether Toyota workers earn more than employees of U.S. domestic automakers: In 2006, at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, workers averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members at Ford, General Motors and Daimler Chrylser, according to the Detroit Free Press. The difference was due to profit-sharing bonuses; Detroit's workers aren't getting many of those these days because, well, there's really nothing to share. The transplants don't give out much data, however, so it's hard to tell if this pattern is continuing or even if it applied to all Toyota plants in 2006.

 

A final note on all this: Labor costs only account for about 10 percent of the cost of producing a vehicle. And it's not the cost of American cars that people complain about; they're already often thousands of dollars less than their Japanese counterparts. Whatever changes may be made in the carmakers' labor agreements, we're convinced, and the recent hearings show, that there are much bigger problems in Detroit.

 

– Viveca Novak and Joe Miller

Sources

Sorkin, Andrew Ross. "A Bridge Loan? U.S. Should Guide G.M. in a Chapter 11." The New York Times, 18 Nov. 2008.

 

Leonhardt, David. "$73 an Hour: Adding It Up." The New York Times, 9 Dec. 2008.

 

Roberson, Jason. "UAW Losing Pay Edge." Detroit Free Press, 31 Jan. 2007.

 

Sherk, James. "Auto Bailout Ignores Excessive Labor Costs." WebMemo #2135, 19 Nov. 2008.

 

International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America. "Wages and Labor Costs." www.uaw.org, Web site accessed 11 Dec. 2008.

 

"Stabilizing the Financial Condition of the American Automobile Industry." Hearing of the House Financial Services Committee, 19 Nov. 2008.

Edited December 13, 2008 by OhioFisherman

[hammercarp]

Anybody with a University degree working as an assembler at an auto-plant has wasted their education, and the taxpayers dollars.

You do not know what I do, so how do U know I couldn't"follow you around".

Yer perty good makin' yer own generalisations".

And.. I don't hide from nobody!

 

Whoa!

Do you subscibe?

 

 

[outllaw]

grade 3 im still laughing. theres folks with far more education working in the automotive, and manufacturing sectors then you would believe.. in reality can you blame a person for holding a decent paying job. i question the sourness in some folks thoughts.. like it or not jealousy, is not an answer to ordinary people that do work hard and spend there bucks in a store you work in. . this has been a downturn created from individuals that are the leash holders of workers.. and yes im proud to see unions help to create better workplaces at decent wages for hard working folks.. . can anyone honestly say they would refuse a decent wage, and benefits, or pension.

[Fish Farmer]

It's the oil company's to blame, "Gouging" and the government for allowing all the foreign car company's in this country. Why can't we sell our cars in other country's

Now you want to blame the workers. Isn't it funny how the government can screw our heads up

Edited December 13, 2008 by Fish Farmer

[chris.brock]

I'm an autoworker (as stated before), I have a BSc in Fisheries Biology form U of Guelph, when I choose what to take in University, I didn't intend to "waste" my education, things change and some things don't work out

[forrest]

I'm an autoworker (as stated before), I have a BSc in Fisheries Biology form U of Guelph, when I choose what to take in University, I didn't intend to "waste" my education, things change and some things don't work out

 

I back that up too. It happens all the time, it is an easy ting to fall into. Money is good and the job is there. Some say 'I'll just do it for a year or so to get out of debt'. Next thing they know its 10 years and they no longer have the freedom of a 20 year old.

 

There is a lot of wasted talent and education on those assembly lines.

 

forrest

[Zebco]

Lot of wasted space as well as wasted money. If all these assembly line workers are such genius's why did they let this happen? Can they not vote for a pay cut to equal the foriegn competitors? I'm sure they can, just chose not too. Look at all the things they have went on strike for in the past, seems they always get there way, now there crying cause they might not get there way. Boo-Hoo

 

Welcome to the real World!

[forrest]

Lot of wasted space as well as wasted money. If all these assembly line workers are such genius's why did they let this happen? Can they not vote for a pay cut to equal the foriegn competitors? I'm sure they can, just chose not too. Look at all the things they have went on strike for in the past, seems they always get there way, now there crying cause they might not get there way. Boo-Hoo

 

Welcome to the real World!

 

No one is saying they are all geniuses and who says they are crying?

Ever try to change the mentality of a mob? It is a hopeless cause so the talent has to go with the flow.

 

Put yourself on the ladder: For the longest time there has been less qualified people higher up the ladder and more qualified people lower on the ladder. It sucks, the world is not fair.

 

Wasted money, disfunctional company....it is a sucky part of the real world that some people may have not had the displeasure of visiting/realizing.

 

forrest

[BUSTER]

Whoa!

Do you subscibe?

 

 

hammercarp please read the tail end of you post #30

you say "so the name calling is uncalled for"? whats this then?

[Zebco]

No one is saying they are all geniuses and who says they are crying?

Ever try to change the mentality of a mob? It is a hopeless cause so the talent has to go with the flow.

 

Put yourself on the ladder: For the longest time there has been less qualified people higher up the ladder and more qualified people lower on the ladder. It sucks, the world is not fair.

 

Wasted money, disfunctional company....it is a sucky part of the real world that some people may have not had the displeasure of visiting/realizing.

 

forrest

 

 

Comparing autoworkers with the Mob, is like comparing Paris hilton to Charlie manson.

I am on the ladder taking a 10 percent pay cut beginning in Febuary for these pampered workers at gm. Most of my co-workers will be laid off...

 

Like I said welcome to the real world. I been in it for awhile, never got handed a job to me because I was born at the right time...

[outllaw]

zebco . you state workers to change what a company dictates. the unions have given up lots in the past contracts.. yes fish farmer its a closed border to quality north american products. in the meantime our resources get sucked dry.. and zebco. do you really think the asian markets shop at your local stores???.

[Zebco]

I inspect parts for GM and want them to fall, if you think they are quality parts you are nuts or work for GM. Pretty much every part on 2009's V-8 engines have had something wrong with them at one point or another this year. Thats just there motor... Little things like hinges can't even be made right. They are made in Niagara Falls Canada. The weather stripping made in welland is being sent away cause they can't do there jobs. I won't name the companies. Nothing is made by GM all they do is put the car together so how is it a GM vehicle? Alot of parts come from Mexico aswell, some from Poland, Germany and so on. How is that a North American made car? So there is your quality.. If they actually made a quality vehicle my opinion would be different on the bail out...

[misfish]

the unions have given up lots in the past contracts

 

 

[sirfish]

Comparing autoworkers with the Mob, is like comparing Paris hilton to Charlie manson.

I am on the ladder taking a 10 percent pay cut beginning in Febuary for these pampered workers at gm. Most of my co-workers will be laid off...

 

Like I said welcome to the real world. I been in it for awhile, never got handed a job to me because I was born at the right time...

 

You're not taking a pay cut for GM workers . Shake your head. You are taking a pay cut so your corporate bosses can maintain thier standard as to what they are used to. It always boils down to the guy at the top of the pyramid.

 

For the record...I applied every year from 79 to 84 before I was hired. In the interim it was school and work.......so what was handed to me ...I think i paid my dues

 

All last year it was easy to blame the oil companies ,now with the low oil prices its the Autoworker to point the finger at. ......When this blows over who will you naysayers point the finger at...United way ? welfare recipients? Handicapped persons ? Have you no consience .

 

Its easy to follow a crowd and believe what they say without all the facts.

[misfish]

Little things like hinges can't even be made right. They are made in Niagara Falls Canada. The weather stripping made in welland is being sent away cause they can't do there jobs.

 

If they would just ease up on thier tight tolerances,I bet it would work.

I have seen the pressure a customer can put on us. A part that really dosent need to be as tight in spec,they will not budge(a simple bracket for grips sake). I laugh inside ,as not to be disrespectful to our customers,but even so,we do the best we can, making it the way they want,but it dose come at a price.

Everything these days is made with aslittle material as possible. When we build dies,we have to make them,so there is little waste of the material. Scrap prices have dropped to a low again. There was a time where scrap was worth more then the parts we made.

 

Another example is,we punch parts for a company. When we build the die, we are held to very tight specs.When we run a die that was shipped to us from them,the parts are crap,but thats ok. What ever.

[BUSTER]

I inspect parts for GM and want them to fall, if you think they are quality parts you are nuts or work for GM. Pretty much every part on 2009's V-8 engines have had something wrong with them at one point or another this year. Thats just there motor... Little things like hinges can't even be made right. They are made in Niagara Falls Canada. The weather stripping made in welland is being sent away cause they can't do there jobs. I won't name the companies. Nothing is made by GM all they do is put the car together so how is it a GM vehicle? Alot of parts come from Mexico aswell, some from Poland, Germany and so on. How is that a North American made car? So there is your quality.. If they actually made a quality vehicle my opinion would be different on the bail out...

I agree with the statement of" if they actually made a quality vehicle my opinion would be different on the bail out"

i own a silverado 4x4 and if i was to list the problems i've had my hands would cramp from typing, i agree and disagree with many comments but i cant comment on all,keep the opinions and comments comming just respect others feelings on the topic, may not be fishing but alot of fisherman drive these cars and or work for these car makers or part makers.. lots of passion in the comments.

[sirfish]

I inspect parts for GM and want them to fall, if you think they are quality parts you are nuts or work for GM. Pretty much every part on 2009's V-8 engines have had something wrong with them at one point or another this year. Thats just there motor... Little things like hinges can't even be made right. They are made in Niagara Falls Canada. The weather stripping made in welland is being sent away cause they can't do there jobs. I won't name the companies. Nothing is made by GM all they do is put the car together so how is it a GM vehicle? Alot of parts come from Mexico aswell, some from Poland, Germany and so on. How is that a North American made car? So there is your quality.. If they actually made a quality vehicle my opinion would be different on the bail out...

 

Wow where do you get your facts !!! GM St Catharines has the highest quality for all of NAO. with a 95% first time quality rating and rising in plant. GDX in Welland where weatherstripping is made for a multitude of vehicles ,domestic and foriegn was the most efficient and fully agile of all the other plants . The only reason for the downsizing is new ownership not based in Canada. As for the hinges i don't know the facts so I won't comment.

 

Its funny you would want them to fail..YOU WOULD BE OUT OF WORK and a burden to society IE ...UNEMPLOYMENT or worse WELFARE... DUH