Uncle Buck Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 I have a 15 or 20 gallon aquarium... the water is always murky? the filter clogs after 3 or 4 days? i use Bclear and Big Al's water conditioner, but it doesn't help http://www.bigalscanada.com/baproducts/watertreat.htm http://www.animalworldnetwork.com/bclearbiolwa.html Filter is an Elite Hush 20... http://wetpetsusa.stores.yahoo.net/hafihu20elcl.html i have 2 koi about 3" and a plecko inside it was bought as a kit everything in a box, but like i said the water is always murky and the filter clogs after 3 or 4 days... any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motv8tr Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Hey Goran, I just sent this to a friend of mine who's husband earns his living caring for tanks. I'm sure someone here will be able to answer,and likely faster than Richard, but I'll send you his reply just in case. Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 I have a 15 or 20 gallon aquarium... the water is always murky? the filter clogs after 3 or 4 days? Too much natural sunlight? Water too warm? The Koi are probably happy with cool water, dunno about a Plecko. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 Too much natural sunlight? Water too warm? The Koi are probably happy with cool water, dunno about a Plecko. I forgot overfeeding. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedimaster Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 I would think over feeding is your culprit. Those filters are also pretty crappy. Might want to invest in a better filter. Its far better to have a bigger filter than one just barely good enough. What do you have in the bottom of the tank? Sand, Gravel, Nothing... Koi and other goldfish are notoriously dirty fish so you are much better off with as big and as good of a filter as you can. Is the filter getting clogged with waste or with something else like perhaps algea? Have you been doing regular water changes? 5 - 20 percent per month? Is it sitting in a window? how long do you leave the lights on the tank. When you say murky do you mean hazy like a foggy or murky like muddybrownish dirty looking water like Lake scugog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burtess Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 A few questions: How long has the tank been set up and running? How long with fish? What is your maintenance schedule? Filter cleanings (and how are you cleaning) and water changes / gravel vacs (how often / how much) ? Do you test for ammonia / nitrite / nitrate? After these questions are answered it will be much easier to give some advise... Burt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccmtcanada Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 I agree with Burt...we used to have assorted fish from the goldfish family and it's real easy for the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels to become elevated....when this happens then you get that clouded mess. These levels can be elevated as well with over feeding. I use the Big Als water conditioner for their slime coat and the removal of chlorine, but other things if the water gets cloudy. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burtess Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 (edited) Under normal circumstances (and healthy ones!), ammonia and nitrite should not be present, and nitrate should be kept below 40ppm. I keep all my tanks below 20ppm nitrate. This requires me to do approx. 50% water changes on most of my tanks every week. If ammonia and nitrite are present it can indicate a couple of things. One could be that your system is not "cycled", that is the bacteria that break down ammonia or nitrite are not yet established. Another could be that your filter is holds an insufficient area for these beneficial bacteria to grow, thus they cannot process ammonia or nitrite fast enough. Another could be over feeding, and there is so much decaying food present that there are ammonia or nitrite spikes. Bacterial blooms caused by the above could result in the perpetually cloudy tank water he has... Burt Edited October 18, 2007 by Burtess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyman Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 I have a little experience as well, from fresh planted discus to saltwater tanks and corals. I was going to ask the same questions as others here. My first thought is that this is a new setup and it hasn't cycled yet. Really anyone contemplating setting up a tank should run it for weeks before adding anything living to it. You can start a bacterial cycle the easiest IMHO by using some substrate and/or filter material from a tank that's been up and running for a long time. If you have no access to a running healthy tank, some people throw in a shrimp (dead) or a dead fish to get the cycle going. Unfortunately most stores won't tell you not to buy the fish right away and will fill your cart with chemicals. Another thing I think people overlook is the original source of the water ....... did it just come straight from the tap? Well water? Who know what the water contains and it varies sooo much, week to week and city to city?I know where I live the difference is massive and anything from die offs to simple algea blooms occcur in great numbers when cities treat the water, sometimes with massive doses of chemicals or who knows what. I use (rent) RO filtration, but most bottled water is also RO. At least that way, your water is consistent. I then use a product called "RO Right" by Kent which adds in pretty much everything you'll need in your water. If you're going to grow plants some laterite in the substrate will go a long way to keeping your plants happy. I think keeping plants in a freshwater aquarium is one of the best ways to keep a whole tank healthy. Now, heavily planted tanks require other supplementation which could be just some plant food, something as simple as peat (which works great with a low ph or acidic {soft water} and is also very inexpensive) or in some cases the addition of CO2. Plants are sort of a harmless, natural filtration method. Carbon is also one of the most effective harmless ways to remove pollutants from your system. I better stop right here. If you need any help you can pm me. Some others have given some great advice here as well. Obviously we have some aquarists aboard. Nice to know. What I've found is that there are ALOT of ways to keep a healthy tank and many of them work. People start out doing a million complicated things. PH up, PH down chemicals etc. Heck, there's a chemical for everything .........and what I've noticed is that keeping it simple works pretty well (believe me, I made all the mistakes too......... maybe you won't have to). Mother nature does pretty well and if you can start out right, balance a system and set it to take care of itself you'll have the most success, enjoy it more and stay in the hobby longer. Sorry for the long winded reply everyone. I just finally can comment on a topic I know at least something about. Usually I'm just learning on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillj Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Wow Kennyman you sure brought back a few memories ... I used to do a lot of tank mtc when I worked in a Pet store as a kid ... anyhow I totaly agree - K. I. S. S. rule really does work well ... KOI are 'messy' so regular changing of at least 20% is a good idea and I would say you need to consider dumping everything and giving the gravel (I assume you have gravel) a good hard thorough washing - hot water then cold then hot again - this could be the source of your clouding ...always better to under feed than over feed (not just becuase of clouding) Personally I like the natural plants idea ... you need to let the tank find a good equilibrium and will have to take into account the natural vs artificial light ...but in the long run you'll have a happier tank if the plants and bacterial / zooplankton find a balance. My best results (believe it or not) were when I was out of the country on a six week vacation ... I came back to find my angels had bred and everything was healthier than I had ever seen it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Shark Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 I have three tanks, a 72 g, and two 90 g reef tanks. To me the main culprit probably would be from overfeeding and the waste the fish are producing. I would get a larger filter. Try the large aquaclear it is really effective. Also if those are the fish you choose to keep I would consider a larger tank and keep the water cool for those fish. In all honesty I quit with fresh water because it is harder to maintain than my saltwater tanks believe it or not. I use natural filtration with 100lbs of live rock and 6 powerheads for circulation which is very important for any tank. You do not want dead spots in your tank. Food and waste will collect in these areas which can cause ammonia spikes which will stress and possibly kill your fish. Also someone mentioned to much direct sunlight, you dont want to have your tank in direct sunlight as you can get algae outbreaks. Hope you resolve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poobah Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 I agree with the others its most likely nitrates/nitrites. I would add some live plants, and get a bigger filter, the aqua clear line of filters, are easy to maintain, and are realatively inexpensive. I recomend on your tank (20 gal) a Aquaclear 70 especially with Koi, they tend to "poop" alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyb Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Do you have the charcoal media in your filter? A fresh one would probably work wonders. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Also Big Al's has a test kit consisting of some strips with pads that allow for fast simple tests of the water quality. So far you've gotten some good advice so I won't add anything except ditto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassmastermike Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Hey Uncle Buck just lake a sample of your water to big als they will test it for you for free ! I hav a 110 GALLON and had the same problem . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Buck Posted October 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Tank has been up and running for about 3 or 4 months now... The water is around 78-80 degrees it's not in direct sunlight i keep the light on for approx 6 hours or so a day plants inside are plastic i have no air pump in the tank i haven't done any testing for ammoniums/nitrates etc... i do 30-50% water changes every 10 days to 2 weeks... i also vacume the gravel when i do the water change... i'll try feeding the fish less, i think i've been over feeding them maybe... i feed them every other day, and give them about 20 koi pellets and 1 algae disk the current filter has a "cotton??" filter then carbon/charcol media and then a plastic weave filter when the water is cloudy, it starts turning greenish this is about as clear as the aquarium gets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumma Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 You need something in the environment to deal with the nutrients in the water. A few live plants would go far in the search for clear water. They have two jobs one is to use the nutrients the other is to keep a dose of good bacteria growing. Art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 The water is around 78-80 degrees i'll try feeding the fish less, i think i've been over feeding them maybe... when the water is cloudy, it starts turning greenish Any kind of goldfish are huge poopers. I'd probably want to have a bottom filter to get a little more action around the stones (the ones on the bottom), even if you do vacuum it regularly. 80 is pretty warm for any kind of goldfish. They don't even like it warm. There are Koi thriving in a flooded rock quarry in which we dive down in Ohio. These things are over 2' long now with huge girth. I'm not sure if they're breeding but they've been there for some years and I can tell you from personal experience the quarry gets durned cold in the winter months. I can't remember how cold the Plecko can tolerate. The problem is, as you probably know from fishing, that warmth stimulates algae bloom. BTW. It took me forever to find the Plecostamus hiding in the rocks. He's a little guy. I'm pretty sure he doesn't need it that warm either. I'm not even sure you need the heater period. JF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burtess Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 A few things that I would do: Scrap the heater (as said above), goldfish and koi are cool water fish. If anything the heater speeds up their metabolism and makes them eat and crap more. Also scrap the pleco. They come from South America and require warm water. Also most species require wood in their diet, which you don't have. Live plants + goldfish = no more live plants.... Doing water changes like you are, you don't need live plants anyway. The water changes will reduce the nitrate and organic loads. No new carbon. Don't bother with carbon, it just makes the fish store money. I only keep a bit of carbon around to use if I need to remove meds. Ditch the BClear (or any other clear-up chemicals), you don't need it. Mostly it is an organic polymer that floculates the particulate in the tank. You can feed daily, just watch what they eat. Give them only a couple minutes, if its still floating, scoop it out and adjust for the next feeding. If you get rid of the pleco, then you can get rid of the algae tablets too. What I am interested in is how you clean out your filter. Do you rinse the cartriges when you do a water change? How do you rinse them? What water do you use to rinse them? Do you replace them every time? Burt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lundboy Posted October 20, 2007 Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 (edited) There are two types of water clarifier: B-Clear and P-Clear. B-Clear tries to bond to biological (hence the "B") organisms in the tank so that they get picked up by the filter more easily. P-Clear bonds to particulate mater that is suspended in the tank. Both will clog your filter quicker than you can keep up with it. So stop using it. By the looks of the picture, you don't have many fish in the tank. Well below the recommend square inch per gallon calculation so you shouldn't have too much waste buildup, unless you don't change your water much. I suspect that you have either a problem with over feeding, feeding cheap food, or a bacteria "bloom" happening. The bacteria are generally beneficial, helping to convert ammonia to nitrates, and nitrates to nitrites. With only 2 fish in a tank that big I can't see you having a chemistry problem, again as long as you change about 25% of the water weekly. I would recommend changing the food to a different type/brand or a better brand. Tetramin Tropical Crisps work well for me it has never caused clouding. If you have a bacterial bloom going on, it would be strange since the tank has been up running for so long. You could however have a bacterial bloom constantly if you change too much water and completely change your filter cartridge. This could put the tank back into a "new" cycle. You might want to have a look at your gravel. Scoop it out into a good clean pail (preferably new), and rinse it under cold tap water. Check to see it the tap water is getting cloudy from the gravel. If so rinse the heck out of it until the water is running clear. The other thing is maybe you could pick up an air pump and an under gravel filter (about $40 total). This will draw the bacteria into the gravel where it will live, and not in the tank water above. Plus it will add more oxygen to the water. Your filter does not have a "bio-wheel" that the bacteria can live on, so an under gravel filter might be the ticket. Try the food thing and the gravel rinse first, before going to the under gravel filter. Edited October 20, 2007 by lundboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyman Posted October 20, 2007 Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 Any kind of goldfish are huge poopers. I'd probably want to have a bottom filter to get a little more action around the stones (the ones on the bottom), even if you do vacuum it regularly. 80 is pretty warm for any kind of goldfish. They don't even like it warm. There are Koi thriving in a flooded rock quarry in which we dive down in Ohio. These things are over 2' long now with huge girth. I'm not sure if they're breeding but they've been there for some years and I can tell you from personal experience the quarry gets durned cold in the winter months. I can't remember how cold the Plecko can tolerate. The problem is, as you probably know from fishing, that warmth stimulates algae bloom. BTW. It took me forever to find the Plecostamus hiding in the rocks. He's a little guy. I'm pretty sure he doesn't need it that warm either. I'm not even sure you need the heater period. JF Good advice. Lowering the temp will also slow the metabolism of the fish a little, meaning they'll need to eat less ....... hence poop less. If you're going to lower the temps to it gradual, say one degree every few days or so. I going to go back to the plants again too. They will help you in maintaining the tank, cleaning the water (by using the poop as food) just as trees help clean our air and make our enviroment better. A simple solution indeed (or at least part of it). If you hate the look of plants you'll have to be the one doing the cleaning instead of the plants. P.S. I think you're on the right track with feeding them less as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Buck Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Update... took a water sample into Big Als... they tested it for nitrates/ph and stuff and the water is fine i went with an aquaclear 50 ( the 70 was just massive, and i even had to cut the existing filter opening to fit the 50 in) they also told me to put in phosphate remover and that would eliminate the greenish water... he told me to put the phosphate remover in instead of the biomax... so i did a 50% water change last night and installed the new filter, the water is a little cloudy (whiteish) but i'll see how that goes after a couple of days on the new filter... if it still remains, i'll try rinsing the gravel at the bottom thoroughly... If i pressure cook/boil the gravel, will it lose it's color? i'm thinking the white cloudiness could be caused from the gravel... i'm feeding them every 3rd day, and i took the heater out... water temp is 72 with a window open all night, koi and pleco seem to be doing well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Uncle Buck, I'm not sure if you are using charcoal or actvated carbon in your filter. I once made the mistake of using charcoal and not activated carbon. The activated carbon does a much better job at removing impurities than the charcoal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillj Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Tank has been up and running for about 3 or 4 months now...The water is around 78-80 degrees it's not in direct sunlight i keep the light on for approx 6 hours or so a day plants inside are plastic i have no air pump in the tank i haven't done any testing for ammoniums/nitrates etc... i do 30-50% water changes every 10 days to 2 weeks... i also vacume the gravel when i do the water change... i'll try feeding the fish less, i think i've been over feeding them maybe... i feed them every other day, and give them about 20 koi pellets and 1 algae disk the current filter has a "cotton??" filter then carbon/charcol media and then a plastic weave filter when the water is cloudy, it starts turning greenish this is about as clear as the aquarium gets... OK ... I see a potential problem ... the gravel ... I personally never liked the big rocks - they trap too much food ... and certainly not the painted black and white ones ... you really have to clean that stuff as it will sometimes be the cause of cloudiness (even without anything else in the tank) ... you may need to 'flood' this gravel in a bucket for quite some time (add a little bleach even) to get the water to flow through it and stay clear ... until it does everything else is just icecream on s*&t ... so rinse it completely clean in a big 5 gal bucket and then re-add it to your tank ... also may consider leaving it out for a few days just to see if this is the cause of your clouding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpt Posted October 24, 2007 Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Uncle buck, Just stop feeding the bacteria in the tank and you should be fine. A fish's stomach is as big as it's eye. Cut back to 6-8 pellets a day and do half a disk every other day. Tank sould clear in 3 days at that temp. Lower temp to 75 if you keep the pleco and want to add more tropicals. Live plants are great if you can get them to take, just keep trying by buying new ones if they die. Try to find some java moss and throw in, it's hardy and should help with the water chemistry. Don't disturb the gravel at all unless you're moving the tank. Once the layer of bacteria starts working they'll keep your tank clear. That's a nice looking tank and at 1" of fish per gal water you could add a few inches. With the koi stay away from aggresive fish or fin nippers. Most gouramies should be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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