Another Political thread...groan!

[Pigeontroller]

Here's a good article written by my Step Daughter's Professor...

 

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2015/07/20/opinion/another-federal-scientist-fired-harpers-ongoing-war-science

[Paudash]

I am pretty sure if I went to the press and spoke against my employer that I would be fired as well

 

Just because he is a scientist does not give him the right to talk against the policy of the government. He was a federal employee first and a scientist second. Now that he is no longer a federal employee he is free to say what he wishes while someone else pays but not the tax payers.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Paudash

[Dave Bailey]

I am pretty sure if I went to the press and spoke against my employer that I would be fired as well

 

Just because he is a scientist does not give him the right to talk against the policy of the government. He was a federal employee first and a scientist second. Now that he is no longer a federal employee he is free to say what he wishes while someone else pays but not the tax payers.

 

No, he is OUR employee. This government has been muzzling scientists for a long time, and it's getting worse.

[Paudash]

You correct, he is "OUR employee" paid for by our freely elected government. He was not paid to speak out against our governments policy. I am not saying that I disagree with what he said but only it was not his job to do those interviews and say what he did. Now he is free to do any interviews and make any statements he wishes. What would happen to you if trashed your employer on Facebook?

[Dave Bailey]

I support any government scientist who speaks out. This government is provably and undeniably anti-science, and needs to be taken down.

[SirCranksalot]

not just anti-science. Anti anything that might not support their political dogma. Who needs a census to expose awkward facts? Who needs any new facts if your policy is already set by the leaders 'beliefs"???

[netminder]

I don't think it was that he was speaking out AGAINST the government, but that he wanted to share the results of his findings before getting "approval" from Big Brother. Scientists have an obligation to be free and open with their findings and it is incredibly unethical for governments or anyone for that matter to muzzle them when they might want to say something. Especially when it might be something that doesn't follow the party line. We can't rely entirely on industry to regulate itself - just look at tobacco of a few years back. We desperately need government funded and university funded researchers doing this stuff. But once that trust is corroded who do we turn to?

[SirCranksalot]

I think this sums it up quite well:

"This is fundamentally undemocratic and even dangerous in the long term, particularly if we allow ourselves to become accustomed to it. Don't underestimate the insidious decay that will ensue if we continue to allow this government to bury information vital for our nation's integrity.

Just as scientists have a responsibility to communicate research in the public’s interest, Canadians have a responsibility now to stand up for their right to hear what our federal scientists and researchers have to say about issues related to their safety, health and prosperity."

[landry]

Paudash - I disagree with you immensely. Scientists have an obligation to be truthful and they do work for me not some anti-environmental big business/political agenda.

[tb4me]

You correct, he is "OUR employee" paid for by our freely elected government. He was not paid to speak out against our governments policy. I am not saying that I disagree with what he said but only it was not his job to do those interviews and say what he did. Now he is free to do any interviews and make any statements he wishes. What would happen to you if trashed your employer on Facebook?

As a scientist it is his job to speak up for whats right no matter who his employer is..There is just right or wrong when it comes to science..Stole this from the article and it hits the nail dead on the head..

 

No scientist paid with public funds should be compelled to filter the information they collect away from the public simply to keep our politicians happy. We all have the right to decide for ourselves what information is of value. That our government appears to be working so very hard to keep information from us should be deeply troubling to all Canadians who value their democracy and the roles of our institutions within it.

Edited September 26, 2015 by tb4me

[Pigeontroller]

^^^^EXACTLY!^^^^

 

Everyone should be very concerned with the present federal Governments desire to SUPPRESS information.

[spincast]

^^^^EXACTLY!^^^^

 

Everyone should be very concerned with the present federal Governments desire to SUPPRESS information.

 

When knowledge is suppressed or manipulated by those who have a motive other than knowledge itself, it is for personal interest. Those who are in a position of power to realize their personal interest over that of the public are exhibiting behaviours that by definition are not democratic. As an example - we now recognize that smoking is a prime factor in causing cancer. It was not always so, and the efforts of the tobacco community to suppress this were endless - on the political stage, the public stage (advertising) and the equivalent of 100s of billions of dollars was spent in an attempt to hide this fact. Many self interested parties went along for the ride protecting the tobacco companies for decades. Key to the duration it took to bring this to worlds eye was money and the ability for big tobacco to use it to suppress information they did not want to be released, and to sway political opinion to assist them in this approach. Are we better knowing that our chances of dying from cancer are increased significantly if we smoke or not? Knowledge must be shared and evaluated on its own merits by scientists, politicians and the public. Then at least when actions are taken everybody is aware of entirety of the situation. To do otherwise opens a very slippery slope. Do you know that in China, most citizens are not aware that the Tienanmen square massacre occurred? Both of these are examples of suppressing the truth. Ask yourself who gained by the suppressing.

[Canuck2fan]

As a society we have seem to have forgotten that ANY government employee works for US the taxpayer, any clouding of that fact just plays into any despotic leader's hand, whether in Ottawa or Toronto...

 

I would love to see what the outcry would be if anyone but Harper was responsible for burning books, closing labs and firing some of the best and brightest just for possessing or attaining knowledge one man disagrees with?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/capt-trevor-greene/science-cuts-canada_b_4534729.html

Edited September 27, 2015 by Canuck2fan

[Paudash]

A lot more tin foil hats here then I thought, I hope you all get what you want in this election.

[spincast]

Paudash - you will notice I made no reference to any political party, nor the current electoral situation in Canada. The two situations I refer to I have great experience with. The first involves my father, and second the country of my children's birth, several highly educated citizens of which I have come into contact with and had discussions at great length on this very topic. Opinions without knowledge are prejudices.

 

And, as an observation, an employee of the Government is a Civil Servant. I will resist the temptation to provide examples of how rarely we interact with one who is both civil and servile, but by definition - they serve the citizens of society, not the leaders. They owe their allegiance to the democracy, not the ruling party. They are not paid by the ruling party. They are paid by government coffers, that are replenished with tax dollars collected from all.

 

Regardless of which political party gets in power, I hope they recognize that truth and knowledge are not a threats to our existence. Only the willful manipulation of these for personal ends is a threat.

[Paudash]

here are examples of every party firing people for speaking out in what they believe in

 

just because you are a scientist for the government does not allow you to say what ever you. If you want to say what you believe is the truth then leave the federal payroll or any government pay roll and you are free to say what ever you want

 

 

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/26/lesson-to-future-pols-watch-what-you-say-and-post

[glen]

We are screwed.

[John Bacon]

here are examples of every party firing people for speaking out in what they believe in

 

just because you are a scientist for the government does not allow you to say what ever you. If you want to say what you believe is the truth then leave the federal payroll or any government pay roll and you are free to say what ever you want

 

 

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/26/lesson-to-future-pols-watch-what-you-say-and-post

 

 

Rev. KM Shanthikumar: NDP — Scarborough-Rouge Park

• -The candidate was taped making anti-abortion and same-sex marriage comments, counter to party policies, the Toronto Star reported.
• Status: Still running

 

Ironically the NDP criticized Trudeau for grandfathering existing Liberal MPs, such as John McKay, when he announced that all new Liberal candidates would have to be pro-choice and pro-gay-marriage. Yet, Mulcair allows a new candidate who is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage to represent the NDP.

 

Mulcair criticized Trudeau for not going far enough to rid his party of candidates who were anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage; yet Mulcair didn't go as far as Trudeau.

 

This should dispel and hopes that the NDP are going to be more honest than the other parties.

Edited September 28, 2015 by JohnBacon

[outllaw]

gotta agree with dax on this one . suppression of speech and thought scares the hell outa me

[netminder]

 

 

Rev. KM Shanthikumar: NDP — Scarborough-Rouge Park

• -The candidate was taped making anti-abortion and same-sex marriage comments, counter to party policies, the Toronto Star reported.
• Status: Still running

 

Ironically the NDP criticized Trudeau for grandfathering existing Liberal MPs, such as John McKay, when he announced that all new Liberal candidates would have to be pro-choice and pro-gay-marriage. Yet, Mulcair allows a new candidate who is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage to represent the NDP.

 

Mulcair criticized Trudeau for not going far enough to rid his party of candidates who were anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage; yet Mulcair didn't go as far as Trudeau.

 

This should dispel and hopes that the NDP are going to be more honest than the other parties.

Since I didn't read the article but this is the example that came out of it, firing someone because they are trying to impose their religious beliefs on people isn't exactly the same as oppressing someone from reporting facts and important scientific research/findings.

 

I'm an engineer. I sometimes get hired to assess certain components of properties prior to or following a sale. Regardless of what my finding is I'm going to get paid by my client. There is no benefit for me lying or falsifying information to suit the person paying me. It is in my best interest and professional reputation to tell the truth. No one should have to muzzle themselves for fear of reprimand from whomever is paying them. It is basically as unethical as taking a bribe.

[blindjustice]

Just have to add my 2 cents.

 

Nobody gets fired after making a statement a year ago! The article and supporters are stretching for an answer why this person was fired. We, along with the author, have no clue as to why this individual was fired. But let's try to "Connect the Dots!"

 

This is just another terrible article about some individual's opinion with no actual substance.

 

My statement does not reflect my position on Global Warming or Government in general.

[John Bacon]

Since I didn't read the article but this is the example that came out of it, firing someone because they are trying to impose their religious beliefs on people isn't exactly the same as oppressing someone from reporting facts and important scientific research/findings.

 

I'm an engineer. I sometimes get hired to assess certain components of properties prior to or following a sale. Regardless of what my finding is I'm going to get paid by my client. There is no benefit for me lying or falsifying information to suit the person paying me. It is in my best interest and professional reputation to tell the truth. No one should have to muzzle themselves for fear of reprimand from whomever is paying them. It is basically as unethical as taking a bribe.

 

You quoted my post, but your response really didn't have much if anything to do with my point.

 

My post was about the hypocrisy of Mulcair.

 

Several months ago Trudeau announced that all new Liberal candidates must be pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. However, he made an exception for current Liberal MPs. E.g. John McKay is allowed to represent the Liberal party in the upcoming election even though he does not share the party's pro-choice and pro-gay marriage view point.

 

Mulcair was very critical of Trudeau for grandfathering existing MPs such as John McKay. Muclair stated that Trudeau should have gone further and prevented even the current MPs who were not pro-choice and pro-gay marriage from representing the Liberals.

 

Now it turns out that the NDP is allowing someone who does not hold pro-choice and pro-gay marriage views to represent the NDP party. And KM Shanthikumar is not a current MP; he is a new candidate.

 

I live in the riding in which KM Shanthikumar is running. Prior to the 2011 election, this area was previously represented by Dan McTeague; a highly respected (even by Conservative supporters) Liberal MP. Ironically, Dan McTeague would not be allowed to run for the Liberals because he does not share the party's pro-choice and pro-gay marriage view points and he is not grandfathered as a current MP.

 

Mulcair criticized the Trudeau for not going far enough in preventing candidates who do not have pro-choice and pro-gay marriage views from representing the Liberals; but it turns out that Mulcair has not even gone as far as Trudeau in doing the same. That makes Mulcair a hypocrite.

Many people who are fed up with the politics of the Conservative and Liberal parties are hoping that the NDP will be different. The hypocrisy of Mulcair and NDP on this issue indicates otherwise.

 

[tb4me]

Everyone is missing the point here ..With science there is right or wrong.. That simple..If this man was fired for providing his findings, that went against conservative policy, that's just insane..

[Paudash]

He was not fired for providing his findings, he was fired for speaking out against government policy.

Also with science there is nothing close to right and wrong, everything is subjective.

[SirCranksalot]

He was not fired for providing his findings, he was fired for speaking out against government policy.

Also with science there is nothing close to right and wrong, everything is subjective.

 

as has already been said and repeated---He did NOT speak out against policy.