Please read the petition to open Credit River for Natural reproduction

[canliq]

Got this link from other forum.

Where need support for all members for the petition to open Credit River for Natural reproduction for Salmon and Trout.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-our-salmon-open-the-credit-river.html.

[mistaredone]

Done

[misfish]

Where are they stopped now? I don't follow the credit system that much anymore.(reg changes) When I was in my late teens and early twenties, they got up as far as the dam in Norval. That should be well far enough up river to reproduce effectively IMO. If anything, closing the river to fishing after Sept 25th from the rail tracks in Port Credit, up the rest of the way. Open January 1st, certain sections that wont greatly hurt the hatching of the salmon smolt.. Just a thought.

 

Ok, bash away. LOL

[BillM]

No thanks, I enjoy my resident brown fishing. Those fish are reproducing just fine below the barriers.

 

Maybe stop spending millions on Atlantics if you want to improve the chinook/steelhead fishery (Although does anyone think the steelhead in the credit need help? I don't)

Edited October 7, 2014 by BillM

[highdrifter]

No thanks, I enjoy my resident brown fishing. Those fish are producing just fine below the barriers.

 

I hear ya Bill.. Maybe they should keep that last barrier before the forks to maintain what's left of the fishery up there..

 

I know they maintain Streetsville for egg collection, but there's no reason why they can't do the same at Norval..

 

Streetsville oughta go IMO.

 

cheers

HD

[John Bacon]

Where are they stopped now?

 

There is a dam on the Kraft property at Streetsville. The CRAA operates a fish berrier there. Bows are sent over the dam but cohos and Chinook are not. Some salmon may make it past the dam on the their own; but that is a pretty big jump.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the salmon fishery on the credit is maintained by stocking. I don't think there is a lot of successful spawning for these species in the credit. I would like to see them at least let the coho past the dam. The Chinook fishery can easily be maintained via stocking.

 

Rainbow are stocked in the credit as well. So it is hard to say if they need help or not. We don't know how they would be doing without help.

 

As far as reducing the atlantic program to help chinook/steelhead/cohu; much the money raised for the Atlantic program has been raised specifically for restoring the atlantic salmon. These funds would not be available for stocking of other species if the atlantic program was scrapped. So, eliminating the atlantic program will not benefit other species.

Edited October 7, 2014 by JohnBacon

[misfish]

So they still get up as far as Norval then. Then like I said, plenty of river for them to reproduce. Yes Bill,it nice river above the dam. Been many years since I have fished there. I dought it,s the same as it was back then. All grown up now with houses I,ll bet.

[misfish]

Back when John,there was lots of salmon at the Norval dam. Yes I know the Streetsville dam very well.

[Musky or Specks]

Bluntly NO

[John Bacon]

Back when John,there was lots of salmon at the Norval dam. Yes I know the Streetsville dam very well.

 

The current practice is to stop Chinook and coho salmon at Streetsville. I think some do make it over the dam on their own under the correct water conditions. I am not sure if anyone is helping them past the dam... they are not supposed to.

 

My personal feelling are: allow the cohos over and stop the Chinook.

Edited October 7, 2014 by JohnBacon

[highdrifter]

 

The current practice is to stop Chinook and coho salmon at Streetsville. I think some do make it over the dam on their own under the correct water conditions. I am not sure if anyone is helping them past the dam... they are not supposed to.

 

The ministry boys allow 50 chinnies over the dam per day if I'm not mistaken.

[canliq]

Craa have the fish ladder also dam at Kraft property, where after the fish ladder, Craa bring all the fish up to Norvall for hatchery and release back above the Norvall.

 

That a lot of barricade to stop the fish go up stream all the way to Norval, and above Norval all the way to Caledon.

 

So far I know, Atlantic need cold water for the spawning, and the credit below Norval is not cold enough for Atlantic spawning.

I see every years at CRAA statistic for Atlantic Salmon, have increase the return back at Credit, but most of the Atlantic is from hatchery, and not natural reproduction.

Due the shallow water on the credit, and a lot of barricade all long the credit, that make hard time for Salmon and trout go up stream for spawning, special for Atlantic.

 

I do believe this petition is not for Chinook only, but also for Atlantic, Brown, Steelhead, and other species.

[highdrifter]

Craa have the fish ladder also dam at Kraft property, where after the fish ladder, Craa bring all the fish up to Norvall for hatchery and release back above the Norvall.

 

 

Uuhhh.. sorry. come again?!

 

Check your sources, then check your spell check.

[John Bacon]

 

The ministry boys allow 50 chinnies over the dam per day if I'm not mistaken.

 

Is that something that they started recently? I used to be involved in the egg collection for Chinook. I never saw anybody sending Chinook over the dam. I have not been down there during the Chinook run since MNR took over the Chinook stocking from MEA.

[Hairpy]

Craa have the fish ladder also dam at Kraft property, where after the fish ladder, Craa bring all the fish up to Norvall for hatchery and release back above the Norvall.

 

That a lot of barricade to stop the fish go up stream all the way to Norval, and above Norval all the way to Caledon.

 

So far I know, Atlantic need cold water for the spawning, and the credit below Norval is not cold enough for Atlantic spawning.

I see every years at CRAA statistic for Atlantic Salmon, have increase the return back at Credit, but most of the Atlantic is from hatchery, and not natural reproduction.

Due the shallow water on the credit, and a lot of barricade all long the credit, that make hard time for Salmon and trout go up stream for spawning, special for Atlantic.

 

I do believe this petition is not for Chinook only, but also for Atlantic, Brown, Steelhead, and other species.

? The ladder in streetsville is open after the coho eggs are collected. CRAA does not "have" the fish ladder , it is operated by the MNR and we help periodically. CRAA does not brign the fish to Norval as they get up there on thier own , then they are brought to better spawning habitat.

 

Joseph

[highdrifter]

 

Is that something that they started recently? I used to be involved in the egg collection for Chinook. I never saw anybody sending Chinook over the dam. I have not been down there during the Chinook run since MNR took over the Chinook stocking from MEA.

 

This was on the CRAA site.. An MNR field tech chymed in on a post from someone who was basically asking the same question.

[Hairpy]

. That should be well far enough up river to reproduce effectively IMO.

 

 

Brian , the chinnies would do fine and I'm not sure why they cant collect eggs at Norval. But the other fry need a full summer over and the water below Norval is waay too warm for the fry to survive

[highdrifter]

Brian , the chinnies would do fine and I'm not sure why they cant collect eggs at Norval. But the other fry need a full summer over and the water below Norval is waay too warm for the fry to survive

 

Exactly. Chinny fry might spend less time as fry in a river before returning to the lake, but their tolerances are super low. I don't believe there's any return currently from chinnies spawning in the Credit.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Highdrifter

[Musky or Specks]

Brian , the chinnies would do fine and I'm not sure why they cant collect eggs at Norval. But the other fry need a full summer over and the water below Norval is waay too warm for the fry to survive

Rainbow trout fry are incredibly temperature tolerant withstanding water temps of up to 80 degrees I'm sure plenty survive the summer. If Beeton Creek can produce rainbow smolts the Credit below Norval can.

[canliq]

My apology for the mistaked.

That dam and the fish ladder is not own from CRAA, but belong to MNR. Like Joseph said.

[Hairpy]

Rainbow trout fry are incredibly temperature tolerant withstanding water temps of up to 80 degrees I'm sure plenty survive the summer. If Beeton Creek can produce rainbow smolts the Credit below Norval can.

Beeton Creek would run similar temps as black and silver creek which works really well for reproduction. The main river however is much warmer as it runs wide open through brampton and mississauga urbanization. Imagine how well they would all do if they were allowed to grow in close to ideal conditions. Why use a hatchery to grow chinooks when you could let them spawn on thier own.

[misfish]

As for stocking atlantics,They have been doing it for many years. Probly longer then most think. Unless they were stocking back then,stopped and started again in the late 90,s.

 

I can remember fishing a stretch of the credit at Eldorado park.(again,dating myself here) Up at the rail bridge. I was catching them 6 to 10 inches long. An older fella stopped bye and I showed him one.He told me what they were,I got away from that spot. Left them alone.

[Pigeontroller]

There is alot of info NOT on that petition form! You want people signing a petition you gotta be a tad more forthcoming with the info...

[john from craa]

Musky or Specks - your note (19) proves the need for allowing access past Norval. Temperature!

 

The Credit River hits 82-84F at Norval in summer. Too hot for steelhead, coho or browns and Atlantic's. Only during cold wet summers can salmon and trout survive in decent numbers below Norval Dam. Water temps in Streetsville now peak at 87F. CRAA has made great progress by planting 470,000 trees along the river and tributaries to shade the river, but the rapidly expanding urban areas are destroying tributaries and further reducing the lower river (below Norval) health.

 

Beeton Creek is also a very different system. It is fed by localized groundwater inputs from the north side of the Oak ridges moraine, along with drumlin fields and other smaller moraines with a surficial geology of sandy loam, sand, and gravel. Beeton Creek's limiting factors are agricultural drains, weeping tile, deforestation of the riparian zone and low gradient for much of the system. The lower Credit's geology is 100% clay and shale. The groundwater transmisivity of the Credit watershed downstream of Norval and east of the Credit to Inglewood is 1/1000 to 1/10,000 compared to the upper river above and west of Norval. Bottom line, the Credit River below Norval has virtually no ground water inputs, no springs, no aquifers and no cold water tributaries that are needed to support juvenile trout and salmon. The very limited potential the area had was destroyed in the early 1800's by deforestation and erosion of the top soils and damage is further amplified by parking lots, roof tops and roads in Brampton and Mississauga.

 

Water temps in the Credit peak around 74F from Inglewood to Terra Cotta. Groundwater from the northwest side (Escarpment and Amabel formations) maintain cool water that is heated by the sun from reduced forest cover, widening stream channel and agricultural impacts. From Terra Cotta to Glen Williams water temps now peak about 77F. CRAA's reforestation of three farms has dramatically improved this reach. One farm had no trees over 700m with water temps increasing by 5F. This farm was the start of the thermal kill zone that lasted all the way to Port Credit before we planted it. 18,000 trees in that single 700m section alone and trout could live throughout it (if they could get there).

 

The last major groundwater input to the Credit occurs from where the CRAA hatchery is downstream for 3km. Huge alluvial deposits allow groundwater from the west to enter the river where temps actually drop 2F. The river then enters the Queenston shale section (red clay/shale) with no ground water where it flows for 7km to Norval. Water temps shoot up through here and in the head pond at Norval where the river becomes lethal to trout. Silver Creek adds some cool water, but not enough to lower temps below 80F.

 

From Norval to Port Credit the river flows through the Georgian Bay clay and shale formation with no groundwater to speak of. The river is wide, poorly forested and heats up in the sun. Our efforts to reforest the river have helped...but undoing the damage of 200 years will take a century or more for the river to recover, narrow, deepen and mature old growth trees to shade it. There is plenty of spawning habitat, but the fry/parr normally die from heat stress by late June. Winter survival is reduced due to anchor ice. Egg survival is reduced by high sediment from farms, development and roads.

 

A large part of CRAA's efforts have been using temperature loggers to monitor stream temps. It is maximum temperature and overnight recovery that are of primary concern.

 

Max Temps (now (2013 and then 1998)

 

Inglewood 74F/23.3C (2012-13) 76F/24.4C (1998) Good overnight recovery

Terra Cotta 74F/23.3C (2012-13) 77F/25C moderate overnight recovery

Terra Cotta - Rogers Creek 72-74F (2012-13) 85-88F (30-31C) (1998) Removal of dams and online ponds (2003-2009)

Glen Williams 76F/24.4C (2012-13) 86F/30C (1998) moderate recovery

Norval 82-84F/28C (now) 87F/30.5C (1998) poor recovery

Huttonville 85F/29C 89F/31.7C (1998) poor recovery

Streetsville 87F/30.5C 95F/35C (1998) poor recovery

 

As you can see, all sites below Norval have peak summer temps that are lethal to trout. There are no cold water tributaries and no ground water discharges to create micro habitat survival. The only chance are storm sewer discharges that come out of cement pipes that cool water until a storm hits and the fish seeking refuge are killed by a blast of hot water from road and parking lot runoff.

 

The Credit's chinook run is 10-15% wild based on clip returns (recent years). It was higher (20-40% wild) prior to 2004 (based on PhD study) when more chinooks passed Streetsville before DFO changed the dam to stop lamprey. Chinook runs were 20-30,000 in the late 80's, and have now declined to 5-10k at best. Reduced stocking and reduced survival of stocked chinook because of massive wild chinook numbers are the primary causes IMO. Bowmanville's chinook run is twice as big (and all wild), yet the Credit is 11 times larger (watershed size).

 

The steelhead run is now around 20,000. This is due to CRAA's adult transfers past Norval and the cold summers of 2009 and 2010. Transfers have been reduced and typical summers (hot/dry) in 2011, 2012 and 2013 mean returns will drop quite a bit in the coming years.

 

Cohos are sustained through stocking because they cannot access adequate habitat.

 

Brook trout and resident brown trout that drop below dams are trapped and would die from heat stress too.

 

Dams and deforestation destroyed a run of between 100,000 and 300,000 Atlantic salmon in the Credit. Yet a few people seem to think keeping those same dams around is a good thing. The US is removing dams every day from their rivers. Check out the Elwha or Condit Dam videos on YouTube.

 

John

[Salmonidstalker]

No thanks, I enjoy my resident brown fishing. Those fish are reproducing just fine below the barriers.

 

Maybe stop spending millions on Atlantics if you want to improve the chinook/steelhead fishery (Although does anyone think the steelhead in the credit need help? I don't)

They do in fact need help BillM, just as the steelhead need help on the Saugeen. Dams do not create healthy fisheries, they cripple in almost all cases. As you can read above in Johnfromcraa's post without manually lifting fish above Norval (and above Denny's Dam) and transferring them to suitable spawning water, there would be no wild self sustained populations.

 

I too enjoy resident brown trout fishing; however I do believe, in my own opinion, that all trout can live together and can benefit from each other just as they intermingle successfully on many many other rivers like the Beaver River, the Bighead River, the Ganaraska River, Wilmot Creek, Bowmanville Creek, the Nottawasage River just to name a few. I believe that it would be of benefit to the river to see all fish have a barrier free environment. All of those rivers I've named boast fantastic populations of steelhead, salmon, along side a healthy population of resident trout. ALL, due to the fact that fish have unrestricted access to prime spawning waters.

Edited October 7, 2014 by VXP