NF - Are we allowed to talk NHL hockey again?

[jedimaster]

i think the mear fact that there is a collective bargaining agreement means there is collective bargaining. If you want it so the Player's have no and aren't part of the collective bargaining process, then you need to bancrupt the NHL, and start over, have open tryouts and hire players as staff. Of course, then you have to determine does the NHL as a whole employ the players or do the teams? If its the NHL then the league would determine who is in and then there could be a draft for every team. If its the teams then unless there is some sort of agreement between all of the franchises then you would need to have some sort of agreement on what sort of caps they want to impose on salary etc... now of course when you have that many players and that much money involved there will eventually be a union formed between players in of all the teams. Then there will need to be a collective agreement and terms so that every player is treated the same between teams.

 

Then of course there are going to be poor teams that won't be able to compete with salaray so you will need to have some sort of max or minimum, perhaps a profit sharing or luxury tax between rich and poor teams. Or I guess you could just scrap the 10 crappy teams. There is no way to run a league the size of a pro sports league without some sort of collective agreement in place. Labour laws etc... all dictate that. It's just how the beast is. You want the best players, every team wants an edge to win, they WILL pay as much as they need to to try and get the best players. You need to keep it under control so you need contracts etc...

 

As it is right now. The league bargains with the players associate to come up with a CBA. Thats just how it works or breaks. Like it or not.

[lhousesoccer]

Weve created these monsters....no one but ourselves to blame.

 

Theres a bit of a disconnect from reality when you see this kinda stuff:

 

Heres his summer home:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMdEDt-B3O0

 

Totally "unfair" for a 17 goal scorer last year and 10 the year before.

My first reaction is just disgust. These guys are arguing over money?!?! A video like this definitely does NOT make me want to pull for the players, and I don't want to pull for the owners either, so I guess I'm just essentially done with all the rich boys of the NHL - both sides.

[GreenCanada]

Posturing and lies.

 

x2

[kickingfrog]

My first reaction is just disgust. These guys are arguing over money?!?! A video like this definitely does NOT make me want to pull for the players, and I don't want to pull for the owners either, so I guess I'm just essentially done with all the rich boys of the NHL - both sides.

 

You'd go apoplectic if you saw what the owners have.

[kickingfrog]

No risk play hockey. No talent needed. Players are the sole reason fans buy tickets.

[jedimaster]

No risk play hockey. No talent needed. Players are the sole reason fans buy tickets.

x2

NHL players take risks every time they lace up the skates, ask all the guys with concussions. People WANT to pay to see the BEST. Thats why they get paid so much. It has nothing to do with who the owner is. You could swap out all of the billionaire owners for millionaire owners, or groups of pension fund owners and people would still pay to see the BEST play hockey. Swap out the BEST players in the world for second rate players and people won't pay nearly as much... That what the AHL is. People aren't paying 500 dollars a ticket to see the AHL. Same reason why the CFL is not so popular. Some may like second rate talent, but the majority want to see the very best.

CFL versus NFL

Olympics versus Panama Games

MLB versus AAA

NHL vrs AHL

NBA versus D league

 

People want to pay the big bucks to see the best talent. The little baby league's will have there strong supporter's and good for them, but why begrudge The Best of Best, when any single one playing in the little leagues would sell there soul to the devil to be in the big leagues.

[kickingfrog]

Another argument (not necessarily brought up here) is that ticket prices are based on player costs. Gary said as much last time he locked-out the players. Ticket prices are not related to player costs. Never have been, never will be. Ticket prices are based on what the market will bear.

[glen]

For the players it is there life. What is it for the owners?

[Rizzo]

The fact remains - those who have the money can decide how they spend it. Those who receive the money can accept or refuse an offer of employment. And right now, the players are refusing.

 

couldn't agree more. If someone offered me a couple of million to do something I enjoy I would jump at the opportunity. Who cares about the terms of the deal? You're getting millions of dollars! These guys make more in a year than most of us make in a lifetime. The owners took the risk of making a MAJOR investment. They should be allowed to make as much as they can, as long as they treat their employees fairly. I'd say millions is pretty fair.

[glen]

What is a reasonable amount for an owner to make? Is there a number (percent) that big business goes by?

 

And thanks for all the info on here. I am learning a lot.

Edited December 7, 2012 by glen

[Rizzo]

...or what is a reasonable amount for an owner to lose. I think this is the real debate, not all these guys make money.

[jedimaster]

All of the major leagues have had lockouts and strikes. NFL, MLB, NBA etc... This is a lockout, no different than the others.

The owners make an offer and say its there best and want to negotiate

The players counter that offer

The owners reject it without reviewing it, they want a yes or no

The players wait for a new offer

The players counter

The owners reject it without reviewing it, they want a yes or no

The players wait for a new offer

 

 

Evenutally the Owners will have to actually start negotiating or they will need to cave and make an offer that the players will accept. Either way that will take a long time, because the owners show no sign of wanting to negotiate a deal, and the players are going to keep waiting for a good offer. I mean its not like the owners are actually willing to negotiate for real. If they were then this would have been signed sealed and delivered long ago.

[kickingfrog]

Of course there is risk playing hockey - there is physical risk. And of course there is talent, I never said there wasn't.

 

The CBA is about finances. The Owners assume all the financial risk of operating the league. Players in Phoenix, Carolina, Columbus, Florida, Dallas etc. get paid regardless of how much money their team brings in (or doesn't bring in).

 

This is a difference of philosophy that won't be bridged between us on the internet...and it's increasingly apparent that the owners and players are the same.

 

 

 

And the owners are the sole reason the players have arenas to play in, coaching staff, scouting staff, private chartered air craft, doctors, trainers.....

 

 

Financial risk? Just this week the billionaire owner of the wings waddled up to the government trough (citizens tax money) for a new arena. He is only the most recent in a long list of owners that have done the same. Katz in Edmonton is another fine example of the financial risk the owners are willing to bear.

 

The money used to provide all of that luxury all generated on the backs of the players.

[kickingfrog]

...or what is a reasonable amount for an owner to lose. I think this is the real debate, not all these guys make money.

 

 

If we were to believe that fallacy why would they ever buy a team? Who twisted their arms? Why would these "educated" men buy into a model that loses money?

[Gerritt]

If we were to believe that fallacy why would they ever buy a team? Who twisted their arms? Why would these "educated" men buy into a model that loses money?

 

 

Simple.... Write-Offs.

[kickingfrog]

I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert in high finances of big business but here is an example of how the money numbers can work for some pro sports teams.

 

Team owner (many are not individuals anymore but it keeps the typing easy) also owns the arena his team plays in and a parking lot next to the building.

 

The arena charges the team a rental fee to use the building, not only on game nights but practices as well.

 

The arena charges rent to the team for coach and management office space.

 

The parking lot profits all go to owner and are not reflected in the team's revenue even though the fees are double on game nights.

 

The owner takes in profits and a salary that he pays himself. And don't forget the salary counts against team's P and L statement.

 

The owner says "My team barely broke even last season". Better yet, "we lost x amount of money" 'cause that's a wright-off.

 

 

That is over simplified but that is the way it goes, and not just in sports.

Edited December 7, 2012 by kickingfrog

[Court R]

http://www.youtube.com/embed/GhnvKzA-6WY

[Gerritt]

They were not Billionaires because they owned a franchise... they were Billionaires BEFORE they bought the team....

 

If a team is losing money... it can actually be GOOD for the owner if that business loses money, while his other business thrive...

 

Lower taxes paid to the Tax man.

 

And you can bet, several companies are set up, one for ticket revenue, one for concessions, one for parking etc etc etc...

 

So if one loses, it equals PROFIT!

 

Again less tax to the tax man.

 

G

[Rizzo]

Why would these "educated" men buy into a model that loses money?

...arrogance...they think they can succeed where the last guy didn't.

[kickingfrog]

Another thing to keep in mind is that virtually all the sports media guys and gals covering this lock-out will face cut-backs if this continues. Of course they also stand to keep their jobs if the season starts, no matter what the players make.

 

The NHL and the PA are not the only ones spinning here is what I'm getting at.

[jimmer]

The whole process is very tiring and past the point of being interesting. Bettman trying to save the owners from themselves, players wanting the owners to throw bags of money at them. None willing to move an inch either way.

[danc]

My buddy Dion keeps phoning me every other day or so about this and asks for my advice. I just tell him to relax Dude. It will all work out in the end. Now he's changing the subject and asking me to be his best man at his wedding. I don't know what to do??

 

[irishfield]

My buddy Dion keeps phoning me every other day or so about this and asks for my advice. I just tell him to relax Dude. It will all work out in the end. Now he's changing the subject and asking me to be his best man at his wedding. I don't know what to do??

 

 

I just hope that nobody buys a ticket for the 2013/2014 season... to show them what everyone thinks. Like when the baseball lads went on strike. They use to fill the dome.. now you can get tickets for a dollar just to cover the liability waver on the tickets!

Edited December 8, 2012 by irishfield

[danc]

 

I just hope that nobody buys a ticket for the 2013/2014 season... to show them what everyone thinks. Like when the baseball lads went on strike. They use to fill the dome.. now you can get tickets for a dollar just to cover the liability waver on the tickets!

 

Seriously, I hope so too Wayne.

[camillj]

Oh .. and by the way ... tickets are only $15 to come and watch me play FOR the Toronto Maple Leafs Alumni team ... January 28th at the Powerade Centre in Brampton ... unless of course we get 'locked out' ... I mean ... after all ... I only paid $2600 for the priviledge of playing with them (if you dont include the cost of the NEOVISC and cortisone shots )

 

BTW Wayne ... I got one reserved for You and Jenn if she's interested

Edited December 9, 2012 by camillj