This year taking a big hit / NF

[bushart]

You understand the meaning of the word Karma.

The lack of understanding stems from your equating "what was done to Canada is now being done IN the US". Business entities will move from Winnipeg to Toronto...from Chicago to Houston. That's karma as well, right? It's business. corporations will do whatever it takes to keep a business alive and as healthy as possible. You see, it's the shareholders who call the shots. It has nothing to do with 'karma'.

 

 

Roy you keep dancing around my original meaning----for years (well since free trade)---the US has been the beneficiary of being able to streamline operations and supply both countries from their sites----moving Cdn jobs south

 

At one time to sell in Canada you had to make in Canada (for the most part)

 

Now the US Shareholders have grasped the cheap labour markets and are losing jobs in the same fashion as we did-----Thus the Karma statement----it's a saying---I really don't take it to the bank.

[aplumma]

TAXES, or better yer OVER-TAXATION is the root of all evil and in these ever shrinking monetary times the increasingly popular cousin of TAXATION, THE USER FEE. Leave more money in peoples pockets and let them decide how they choose to spend the money they sweat and bleed for. Who knows, if they have more dough in their pockets at the end of every week they might be inclined to sacrifice a lil more to keep the work right here at home. Attitudes are changing but is it enough and is it too late?

 

Actually Taxation in its simplest form is money collected by the government to pay for the bills that the masses run up. This is not a black and white or cut and dry issue and I don't want to sidetrack this discussion with this train of thought.

 

 

In this world economy we need to remember that it is the people who can adapt to the changes that will survive with the least amount of negative impact. I subscribe to the train of thought that sometimes you need to take a positive action to offset issues you cant control. For example I can't stop the price of gas from going up at the pump no matter how much effort I put into a rebellion it just ain't going to happen. I changed tactics I did the research and found that oil companies are making huge profits at this time from the price of gas and can blame it on the economics or government etc. I offset my price at the pump by purchasing stock in the oil industries. Last year I came out of the year with "free" gas for the year plus 12% profit. Destiny is in each one of your hands by adapting and studying the patterns you can change the way your life goes. A gentleman once said "Think harder work smarter" I give thanks for that quote every day.

 

 

Art

[bushart]

The facilities I visited had on site medical and dental clinics provided by the company. The workers would schedule appointments during their breaks or after work.

 

They all ran 3 full shifts - no overtime.

 

The entire country shuts down for 3 weeks.

 

And as for pensions....I'll be surprised if I see my government pension.

 

Are all Chinese facilities this good? Of course not, but reputable North American companies visit and approve their offshore vendors. I know the parts I buy aren't coming from a run down, unsafe sweatshop.

 

People like to exaggerate a history of problems to make a point today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK that's one 3rd world operation as I did not single out China----How about Mexico----Bangladesh----Central America----Parts of India-----I'm sure these all measure up to North American Standards

 

And what is the flavour of the week these days is painting labour as the bogey man---all those people I assume will be refunding their stat pay they just received for labour day

[Fisherman]

We don't have a taxation problem, we have an immense spending problem. If we got away from supporting all the self interest groups that stand(mostly sit) with open held out hand and tell them to use that hand to work for their perceived entitlements, we wouldn't have a problem. This group, that group, my group, etc, etc, billions spent on bull granola that's not needed. If it can't support itself, it's not viable. Now for health care, go to the hospital and see how many are there with simple scratch and mini bruises that can and should be relegated to walk in clinics or better yet, go buy a damm bandage that's needed. Leave health care for real problems. Then everyone should and must realize the real difference between wants and needs. Wants is what you can do without, but most don't have the jewlery bag to save first and then spend, needs are what is required to run a life, not a life style. Anyway, I watched an interesting program the other night about China Motors Corp (CMC). Sorta sounds like GMC, just one letter change, anyone want t take a guess when that's going to happen? How many more companies are going that way. My father told me many, many years ago, don't worry about a certain group of nitwits, when you see the yellow wave coming..it will be too late. The old kraut was right.

 

As an afterthought, you're right, we shouldn't allow foreigners to outright buy/own our companies. Hope Harper has the brass clackers to tell the foreign oil bid to go pound pinecones .

Edited September 6, 2012 by Fisherman

[pikehunter]

While the INK has moved to the USA I am sure we can find examples of jobs that the USA has lost to Canada that will replace the jobs that went South.

 

Winter 1989/90, we spent some time in San Antonio. Guess what the big news story was? Levi moving their jeans plant across the border to Mexico. Reason, payroll, in the states the plant workers were getting 4 bucks an hour, wow eh so much money! Across the border they were paying 4 bucks a day! And probably got away with much more due to fewer environmental restrictions etc.

 

Americans have similiar problems.

[aplumma]

Winter 1989/90, we spent some time in San Antonio. Guess what the big news story was? Levi moving their jeans plant across the border to Mexico. Reason, payroll, in the states the plant workers were getting 4 bucks an hour, wow eh so much money! Across the border they were paying 4 bucks a day! And probably got away with much more due to fewer environmental restrictions etc.

 

Americans have similiar problems.

 

 

In 1981 I was making $198.00 every week in the military and in 1983 I made $8.00 an hour as a plumbers helper. I don't begrudge that amount because it allowed me to live on my own and save just a little if I didn't spend it on things that I didn't need. No doubt Americans lose jobs to other places and it is the people that drive it by demanding more bang for their buck either as a consumer or as a investor. I am certain there is no easy answer to the question here it is strictly the way we look at the issue. I now have a new quote to share it is

Problems are just opportunities in unattractive packages. Thank you Pike Hunter.

 

 

Art

[bushart]

Winter 1989/90, we spent some time in San Antonio. Guess what the big news story was? Levi moving their jeans plant across the border to Mexico. Reason, payroll, in the states the plant workers were getting 4 bucks an hour, wow eh so much money! Across the border they were paying 4 bucks a day! And probably got away with much more due to fewer environmental restrictions etc.

 

Americans have similiar problems.

 

 

I see PH your from Hamilton----You must remember the Levi Strauss transition then---Where they were made in Stoney Creek and then moved south----now pull the tab back and it says Bangladesh

[BillM]

Have you ever actually been to any manufacturing facilities in Shanghai, Guangzhou, Chengdu, Shenzhen??

 

I have.

 

Pft, we all know everything made in China is garbage!

 

/sarcasm.

[pics]

As a former employee of Stelco and a current employee of US Steal I know first hand the scam of the purchase.... promises of production and employment levels were made and promptly broken to protect the US plants from having to reduce production due to the global meltdown caused by the massive fraud on wall street...Our fearless leader John Surma was appointed to a commitee to protect US companies AND as a consultant for the "buy American" policy...shortly after this we were shut down and almost everyone was laid off for almost a year..A lawsuit was launched by the goverment and the Union but when it became clear that US Steel was guilty, Harper ordered a settlement out of court to avoid embarassment due to our weak investment canada act...(this led to potash corp staying in Canadian hands).

 

In Flint Michigan they know all too well what happens when a company moves to find lower wages. In the south wages are much lower but when you make $14 an hour in South Carolina you can still afford to buy a home and maybe a new car every few years. Try to do that here and you need to make at least $25 for the same lifestyle. We have too much crap we don't need and we are all too willing to buy the cheapest possible to feed our desire for even more "stuff".. Companies are always looking to maximise returns for investors and people are just numbers. The loss of the middle class results in cities that are segregated like Detroit(you have it or you don't).....

[bushart]

As a former employee of Stelco and a current employee of US Steal I know first hand the scam of the purchase.... promises of production and employment levels were made and promptly broken to protect the US plants from having to reduce production due to the global meltdown caused by the massive fraud on wall street...Our fearless leader John Surma was appointed to a commitee to protect US companies AND as a consultant for the "buy American" policy...shortly after this we were shut down and almost everyone was laid off for almost a year..A lawsuit was launched by the goverment and the Union but when it became clear that US Steel was guilty, Harper ordered a settlement out of court to avoid embarassment due to our weak investment canada act...(this led to potash corp staying in Canadian hands).

 

In Flint Michigan they know all too well what happens when a company moves to find lower wages. In the south wages are much lower but when you make $14 an hour in South Carolina you can still afford to buy a home and maybe a new car every few years. Try to do that here and you need to make at least $25 for the same lifestyle. We have too much crap we don't need and we are all too willing to buy the cheapest possible to feed our desire for even more "stuff".. Companies are always looking to maximise returns for investors and people are just numbers. The loss of the middle class results in cities that are segregated like Detroit(you have it or you don't).....

 

 

Youbetcha

 

Wall St spin doctors says that foreign manufacturing was needed to drive down pricing for a bargain hungry consumer

 

Who stops to think that the status quo of making and buying was working quite well for ALL classes from post ww2 to the mid 70's

 

It was the greed driven shareholders who could further maximize profits by moving production lines into non regulated workforces

 

Thus eventually making a greater divide between rich and poor by removing the traditional middle class manufacturing jobs.

 

So essentially you have cheap items for sale for a low paid workforce because now that's all they can afford

 

 

The very definition of a Race to the bottom

[Christopheraaron]

Actually the bottom line is the ruling drive in every culture.

 

Art

 

Ever heard of a place called BAIN capital? Something tells me they were never too concerned with their country...

[bigbuck]

Ever heard of a place called BAIN capital? Something tells me they were never too concerned with their country...

 

Shareholders invest in a company because they would like a decent retun on their money. They are risking their savings by investing. They aren't evil. Everyone in Canada that puts into CPP is a shareholder. CPP invests in companies too. There are many factors in play here. Electro motiv was mentioned, it was an American company to begin with. Consumers wanting more and cheaper goods is ultimately what is doing us in. What would a t shirt made in Canada cost as opposed to Bangladesh? Underwear? Socks? Pants? Shirt? We can't afford to shop Canadian but we can't NOT AFFORD to either. Our livelihood here is changing and if we don't change along with it by re-educating ourselves and retraining, we will be on pogy. Good luck to all of us.

[aplumma]

Ever heard of a place called BAIN capital? Something tells me they were never too concerned with their country...

 

Actually no investment firm are there to satisfy the country they are there to make the investors happy. I have chosen 2 investment firms to make the most of the money I earn and if they are not maximizing my money they they are offering me an inferior product.

 

I am afraid that I have a different view on this subject than some and it might be best I think for me to talk quietly amongist myself.(did I say that right Roy?)

 

Cheers

 

 

Art

[pikehunter]

Bushart, I do remember the Stoney Creek Levi's plant and their move. Wasn't that in the building that now houses Mohawk College, taking money from students so they can train them for non existing jobs? My son is one of those (although the Mountain Campus) and they still continue to pump out graduates in his field every year for jobs that don't exist because school boards are so underfunded.

[kemper]

Actually the bottom line is the ruling drive in every culture. Karma is not a factor here. If any country wants to be the leader in a sector of a world economy they must make the sacrifices needed to bring a product to market that satisfies the most people either by quality or price. Jobs that are farmed out overseas are because they can provide the labor or material cheaper than the area where the product is sold. Now everyone has an idealist thought that we need to all make sacrifices to keep the jobs at home which is a noble thought that few can afford. We see this every day you open a BassPro flyer and see that rod X is $5.00 more in Canada than in the USA. The thread becomes a grumpfest on the injustice of the price being more up North. Now if it was just as easy to purchase and there was no shipping or taxes or penalties would you buy the rod from the USA? (Meaning save the $5.00 but send your money into an economy that does not support your infrastructure)( please answer this in your head so you can be honest). If we take this one step further and we decided that we all would take on the responsibility of buying only items made at home no matter the cost the system will still break down. The percentage of money (our income) that we have is divided out with priorities being met first Taxes, Food, Roof over our heads and essentials. The money we have left over for non essentials fishing gear, vacations, boats, and dinners out would become less and hurt the local tackle maker, cottage owners, marina, and restaurants. The currents of a world economics is like a tide it moves and flows, strong in some areas as it weakens in others. While the INK has moved to the USA I am sure we can find examples of jobs that the USA has lost to Canada that will replace the jobs that went South.

 

Art

 

I was going to enjoy weighing in on this one (economics nerd) but there's not much left to say, Art nailed it.

 

The fact is, there is no human element in these decisions - unfortunate for those involved? Yes. Does it go both ways? Absolutely.

[pikehunter]

To be completely fair - colleges and universities are businesses. If there is a demand for a program, they will offer it.

Exactly my point! Many look up to colleges and universities with respect and think that they are the savoir to a bright future. That bugs me as well as the amount of government (our) money that funds them. They continue to offer courses at the students and our expense. Cut back on the bullcrap programs and concentrate on the ones that are of benefit to society. What is the point of turning out 300 plus grads every year in a particular program where maybe 20 jobs are available province wide? It is a waste of all of our money and time. All of us including the government we are victims of deception.

 

Yes the student needs to research the possibilities, sometimes though research provides false information, is misinterpreted or the information presented is scewed. "Buyer beware" is such a true phrase.

 

The field my son has tried to enter is in great need of staff, but with cutbacks, which the "education industry" is aware of, continues to pump them out. When his research told him there is a high demand for his field and the fact that males are needed and in short supply plus he was told while still in high school he is guaranteed a job and told he is a natural at what he would be trained to do then the light at the end of the tunnel is shut off it is depressing. Not just for him but all of the hundreds, thousands? of grads who are facing similiar situations. Our young people are facing challenges that many of us boomers never had to deal with. In this case the trick for them is to turn what they have learned around and put a different spin on it, use that knowledge in a different way, apply it to new situations, be imaginative.

 

However so many don't look at education as a business, they look at it as something special, a sacred cow maybe? I don't have a problem with money being made as long as it is legit. Even a friend of mine who has been a teacher at Mohawk didn't look at it as a business but he learned to turn his thoughts around and agreed with me that yes it is just a business in the end.

 

Anyway, I feel as I'm hijacking the thread by getting somewhat sidetracked. I apologize.

Edited September 8, 2012 by pikehunter