danc Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 we either get smart now, or....... dig it all up, cut it all down and fish it all out and then try to get smart the planet needs this stuff like I need a hole in the head Moonias' reserve might have some garbage in their backyard, or some dicey septic systems but that can't compare to the environmental disaster big business resource extraction causes some ok, temporary jobs (CEO's win big) while the planet continues down the toilet I can't say that I disagree with you Chris. I know where you're coming from and basically agree that in a perfect world, yes, let the minerals sit in the ground forever. Unfortunately, the world doesn't operate this way. Canada has practically every resource that the rest of the planet needs/wants. To maintain or increase our status in the world economy, we have to sell these resources. You may have never been exposed to logging, mining or oil extraction but even if you sell widgets for a living, you have been highly impacted by Canadas natural resources, for the better. It is the heartbeat of Canada. I certainly don't have all of the answers, especially to a bunch of guys that like to fish for recreation, like us. But to leave a bunch of tundra untouched in the middle of now where, that 99.9 percent of us (outdoorsmen) have never been to or will ever be to, for the sake of protecting the environment is a tough call. There's mines all over the north of Canada. I've worked at a bunch of them. I've worked at a mine that had outlived it's sustainable life. They were building a multi million $ state of the art water treatment plant to clean up after they left. These things are mandated by our government to put things back the way they were before the mine opened up. Mining is not all doom and gloom. Certainly mining will leave some scars, but not nearly enough to say that we should leave an area untouched to protect a place that you or anyone that you know will ever see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.brock Posted June 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 "You may have never been exposed to logging, mining or oil extraction but even if you sell widgets for a living," yeah, you're in T-Bay and I'm a city slicker, tree hugger in Jokeville like I said, I'm biased because I visit the area in jeopardy, but it's the same anywhere in Canada, jobs, economy, GDP versus preservation, we could argue forever but it can't be argued that we are on an unsustainble path I hope Canada will never be as developed as Europe and Asia, but we're losing one wildplace after another, losing one species after another if you're in a resource based job, hopefully you accept that you're at the mercy of the resource and the politics involved "We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors. We borrow it from our children." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.brock Posted June 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) "But to leave a bunch of tundra untouched in the middle of now where" yeah, but to get to that boggy wasteland, you need a road across the Albany and the Skat Edited June 29, 2012 by chris.brock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 This all comes down to having a mindful and strong enough regulatory to ensure that these projects don't cause more harm than good. The way our environmental laws and agencies are getting stripped down, you can bet some cowboy companies are gonna take full advantage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirCranksalot Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 we could argue forever but it can't be argued that we are on an unsustainble path Too true!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirCranksalot Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) "But to leave a bunch of tundra untouched in the middle of now where" yeah, but to get to that boggy wasteland, you need a road across the Albany and the Skat I have trouble with the concept of "wasteland"(no such thing IMHO) and the "middle of nowhere". The "middle of nowhere" is where many of us spend time and money trying to get to, hoping nobody got there before us. Check out the first verse! /www.greatbigsea.com/music/discography/songdetails.aspx?songid=43e5c4a9-2f92-465f-8549-f350c7386788 Edited June 29, 2012 by Knuguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solopaddler Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I have nothing worthy to add here. Just...since this was posted I can't get this song out of my head. So now I'm inflicting it on you LOL! <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gRlj5vjp3Ko" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pics Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Cliffs have to be closely watched..they want people to work for free or close to it...Last year the camp workers walked out over wages and working conditions. They were offered what would have been $140 take home per 12 hr day. No employment insurance, no isolation pay, poor safety...basically they thought they were in Brazil not Canada....Camp workers got a $1000 bonus for moving 200 tons of chromite by hand in half the allotted time while the office managers reportedly got $50 000.... It's about money!! Investors want maximum return without a care for the environment or workers...If the oil patch can pay the big wages than cliffs can too......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danc Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 "You may have never been exposed to logging, mining or oil extraction but even if you sell widgets for a living," yeah, you're in T-Bay and I'm a city slicker, tree hugger in Jokeville like I said, I'm biased because I visit the area in jeopardy, but it's the same anywhere in Canada, jobs, economy, GDP versus preservation, we could argue forever but it can't be argued that we are on an unsustainble path I hope Canada will never be as developed as Europe and Asia, but we're losing one wildplace after another, losing one species after another if you're in a resource based job, hopefully you accept that you're at the mercy of the resource and the politics involved "We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors. We borrow it from our children." I dont work in a resourse based job. In fact I'll be retired before this project takes off. There's no benefit to me. There's dozens of mines operating in the north of Canada. Why haven't you been on here protesting the rest of them? What makes this one so different in your opinion? And I gotta ask you, what was the reason for your visit to an endless treeless swamp that nobody on the planet would want to visit unless your looking for minerals, or rare frogs? Did you find either of them on your visit? This project is huge and will go ahead. It will benefit Mr. Moonias by providing his village with road access and power. And his people will have all the jobs that they need, providing that they show up. "I'm a city slicker, tree hugger in Jokeville" Yes you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I dont work in a resourse based job. In fact I'll be retired before this project takes off. There's no benefit to me. There's dozens of mines operating in the north of Canada. Why haven't you been on here protesting the rest of them? What makes this one so different in your opinion? And I gotta ask you, what was the reason for your visit to an endless treeless swamp that nobody on the planet would want to visit unless your looking for minerals, or rare frogs? Did you find either of them on your visit? This project is huge and will go ahead. It will benefit Mr. Moonias by providing his village with road access and power. And his people will have all the jobs that they need, providing that they show up. "I'm a city slicker, tree hugger in Jokeville" Yes you are. Because Cliffs is evil, will do anything for investor profits and its good that somebody with real interest is trying to keep them in check. Also, the ontario gov is desperate for large projects like this and would give a green light to a mercury mine in the middle of lake superior if they could get away with it. This specific project could be a an environmental disaster if people in the public don't step up and hold the developing companies in check... Moonias and his people are the only public up there, so good on them for realizing that Cliffs are not only experts in mining, but also experts in taking advantage of people and land for investor profit. Follow Cliffs story a bit... They are so crooked and profit driven it is disturbing. If you read deep enough into the Spider takeover you'll see that Cliffs likes to bully and provide kickbacks to those with a "blind eye". I have no problem with mining, so long as its closely watched and respectful of the land. Most other mines up your way had better regultory monitoring and/or they were much smaller and have a far less impactful footprint than the Big Daddy chromite mine will have... Including the various other deposits in the Ring of Fire. Its almost like opening up ontarios equivalent to the tar sands. Let's get the economy going but don't poison everyone and everything in a 200kms radius please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenboater Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) I've spent time at a few resource extraction ops and while they offer job opportunities to First Nation/ Inuit etc.., unless they have some education, they're going to be slinging grub, handling mops etc.. The majority of the well paying jobs will go to imports from south Ont etc.. Not saying it's right or wrong but it's what I saw. Some progressive companies will offer education and training to get more local representation in the higher skill jobs. I will add however that those who were doing menial work, were glad to be working nonetheless. I also don't believe places need to be visited in order to be saved. Edited June 30, 2012 by woodenboater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Live2fish85 Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I think it is all about the money to the government. We do need to protect what Canada is known for. Look at all the windmills that we are getting across Ontario. Going to cost us a ton in taxes so the moron McGuinty thinks he looks good and I am sure he is getting good things from it. I am just using that as an example that not everything is for the good of our Country. If it is truly need that we wreck some more nature then we need it but seems like they just want more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bare foot wader Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I've spent time at a few resource extraction ops and while they offer job opportunities to First Nation/ Inuit etc.., unless they have some education, they're going to be slinging grub, handling mops etc.. The majority of the well paying jobs will go to imports from south Ont etc.. or being trainged to operate heavy equipment making min 65-75K starting, and easily 80-100K within a couple years after OT and double time, plus very good benefits.... my last employer landed two contracts in northern ON (matchewan area) and both contracts stipulated that only 10/15% of the workforce could be on a travel schedule (reserved for senior engineers and mine managers), the rest had to be local(long term) employees and 25 or 30% first nations, they don't start with this on day 1 but they do strive to get there as fast as possible perhaps I need to admit my ignorance to Cliffs business ethics, but they sound very different from what I've personally seen first hand....my comments here were directed more towards the "why must we rape and pillage dear mother earth" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pics Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 The natives need the infrastructure but at what cost? The ones who want to train in Engineering or even a mechanic should have the opportunity to do so. The jobs have to be meaningful and worth something in order to foster pride and to encourage them to keep showing up. Cliffs only wants the money so anything they offer is for public relations...not because they are responsible corporate citizens. If they had their way there would be no smelter in Ontario...just imagine how much virgin forest will be opened up with the new railway or highway. This could be good for fishermen or hunters but in the long term it will diminish those far off wilderness places most of us love. As a southerner maybe I have a romantic view of the North but my favorite place in the world is the boreal forest north of Jellico...might sound silly to a Northerner..... you can't go back once the water and land are destroyed by greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danc Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Because Cliffs is evil, will do anything for investor profits Now there's someting different. A company trying to make a profit. Imagine that. What are they thinking? Sounds like any other profitable business to me. Bottom line here is just why is this adventure so much in the news? Because there's so much money involved. Simple as that. DeBeers opened a diamond mine in the same neck of the woods a few years back. Goldcorp has been operating up there for years. Did anyone even notice? Nope. Why not? Because the ring of fire has 100 times the financial possibilites. Now everyone wants a peice of the pie all of a sudden. And they all should get their slice. Lets get through all of the political crap resolved and get it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danc Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 just imagine how much virgin forest will be opened up with the new railway or highway. This could be good for fishermen or hunters but in the long term it will diminish those far off wilderness places most of us love. As a southerner maybe I have a romantic view of the North but my favorite place in the world is the boreal forest north of Jellico...might sound silly to a Northerner..... you can't go back once the water and land are destroyed by greed. You'd be surprised how far north of Thunder Bay you have to go before the trees disapear. I've flown up there many times and within a few hundred miles, there's no trees any more. There already is a major road corridor within the treed area. There's really not much more reason to go beyond this area unless you're looking for minerals, or you're name is SoloPaddler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) Now there's someting different. A company trying to make a profit. Imagine that. What are they thinking? Sounds like any other profitable business to me. Bottom line here is just why is this adventure so much in the news? Because there's so much money involved. Simple as that. DeBeers opened a diamond mine in the same neck of the woods a few years back. Goldcorp has been operating up there for years. Did anyone even notice? Nope. Why not? Because the ring of fire has 100 times the financial possibilites. Now everyone wants a peice of the pie all of a sudden. And they all should get their slice. Lets get through all of the political crap resolved and get it on. They should use your thought process as a template for the proposed rail line design. It'll save them from installing all those unecessary turns. "Sounds like any other profitable business to me" Are you trying to say all mining companies are ethically equal?... Yikes. Cliffs is evil, I'm sticking to it. Debeers HAS done a lot (good or bad I don't know) for the local native bands in the north. Didn't they just pump tons of money into the recent Attiwapiskat housing crisis? They also built roads, pay royalties etc etc. That is nothing new for mines on native land... When the band properly negociates of course. Moonias is ultimately trying to protect the land from a clear attempt at pillaging. If Nipissing still has natives rights for fishing and land use, then obviously a massive mine on pristine native land will be strongly opposed/negociated. I don't see a problem with adding some land protection... The mine will obviously get built anyway, but it shouldn't be at anyones expense. A couple chromite mines and another nickel mine won't change the world, so why wouldn't we appreciate the process of negociation and proper planning? In the end, it is THEIR land and the our Governement concurs. Moonias and his people have a right to speak up. And by the way, its called a Venture, not an Adventure. Edited July 2, 2012 by Rod Caster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danc Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Moonias and his people have a right to speak up. And by the way, its called a Venture, not an Adventure. Sure they do. I hope that they have better representation then when I last dealt with them face to face. Just curious. How did your last meeting with Mr. Moonias go? And sorry about the miscue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bare foot wader Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 unless they have some education, they're going to be slinging grub, handling mops etc.. The majority of the well paying jobs will go to imports from south Ont etc.. The natives need the infrastructure but at what cost? The ones who want to train in Engineering or even a mechanic should have the opportunity to do so. The jobs have to be meaningful and worth something in order to foster pride and to encourage them to keep showing up. but in the long term it will diminish those far off wilderness places most of us love. As a southerner maybe I have a romantic view of the North but my favorite place in the world is the boreal forest north of Jellico...might sound silly to a Northerner..... you can't go back once the water and land are destroyed by greed. They do have opportunities, I went to college at sir sandford fleming in Peterborough, there were plenty of native students going to school and it is government funded with highly generous living allowances. If they have an education they have the opportunity to work in their field, whether it's engineering or they want to take paid time off work to go to school for heavy mechanics and come back to finish their apprenticeships. I grew up in London, ON, went to school in Ptbo, bounced around TO shortly, lived in Vancouver, lived very remotely north of Whistler and now northern BC near the AB border....I think many "southerners" or city folks have a completely naive idea what actually happens up north in natural resource industries, you need to live it to understand it. It's not what the tree hugging lobbyists plaster in the media, this is exceptionally true in Canada, it is regulated. Greed....that is an interesting concept...the people that harvest the resource and sell it are called greedy...but who do they sell it to? hypocritical maybe? do you take public transit to work? do you walk? do you enjoy everything that makes your daily life easy? it's all connected, as long as there is a demand there will always be an industry to harvest natural resources the only reason this issue is getting attention is because of the huge financial potential...how many logging contracts exist in northern ON, do those get attention? clear cutting the landscape doesn't get much heat, but clear cutting and then digging up the ground..oh no, we've crossed a line apparently...but why, oh wait, what they're pulling out of the ground is worth a lot of money the money is the only reason this is getting attention, moonias knows exactly what he is doing, he's drawing media attention, public awareness, crying wolf....he will get his piece of the pie, mining will continue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Caster Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Sure they do. I hope that they have better representation then when I last dealt with them face to face. Just curious. How did your last meeting with Mr. Moonias go? Never met him, probably never will. I certainly respect that you are there, you know the people and I don't. If I seem like an armchair judge, just imagine how the head-office bean counters at the mining, company are viewing this! BUILD IT BUILD IT!!!! I want this bugger to get build as well, but for god's sake, let's settle down and take everything into consideration first. The gov is currently signing development agreements with a hot pen. I've dealt with Cliffs through investments and saw a lot of illegal activities that were never regulated by the OSC. They'll do whatever they can to get their way and the goverment is supporting it. Our current goverment has very little respect for the environment and only wants the stock market to jump past 13, 000 points so that they can say "we navigated through a recession, vote for us". (both Prov and Feds) The ROF will be huge for Ontario's economy.... but any defense for the environment is welcome...that's my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pics Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 We have to be diligent with all development these days...Nothing wrong with making a profit but they take the resources out of the ground for almost nothing in royalties, the main benefit being jobs etc. I wouldn't trust the government on anything these days...Look at Samsung.lots of sweetheart deals with the Ontario gov that guarantees big profit. Six nations got a sweet deal giving them $55 million for building wind turbines...most of which aren't even on the reserve. Due diligence is needed so we will have something to be proud of that makes Ontario a lot of money...Fail and we will have an environmental mess and big profits that leave the province without really benefitting any of us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.brock Posted August 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 I dont work in a resourse based job. In fact I'll be retired before this project takes off. There's no benefit to me. There's dozens of mines operating in the north of Canada. Why haven't you been on here protesting the rest of them? What makes this one so different in your opinion? And I gotta ask you, what was the reason for your visit to an endless treeless swamp that nobody on the planet would want to visit unless your looking for minerals, or rare frogs? Did you find either of them on your visit? This project is huge and will go ahead. It will benefit Mr. Moonias by providing his village with road access and power. And his people will have all the jobs that they need, providing that they show up. "I'm a city slicker, tree hugger in Jokeville" Yes you are. thanks, proud of it you talk out of both sides of your mouth in T-Bay, that is well on it's way to becoming Jokeville, Northern Ontario thanks to people like you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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