Lake Nipissing - walleye spawn

[rob v]

This I just found funny to read -

 

 

“conservation-minded” spear harvesters try to focus on males.

[manitoubass2]

Nipfisher (and others).

 

When fish are being harvested in a negative/harmful manner, it can still be reported.

 

I'd suggest making some phone calls and asking questions to the right people, and getting educated on the laws. So you know what means to approach to protect the fishery.

 

Just because a person is Native, does not give them the right to fish with dynamite, so to speak.

 

I know this is a touchy subject, but alot of this is based on ignorance.

[Nipfisher]

They've been spearing walleyes in the spring forever. Isn't the walleye population on Nipissing actually on the upswing?

 

 

Bill the walleye index for mature walleye has been down for 3 consecutive years. There were alot of smaller walleye caught this year but that is in relation to the change in mesh size on their nets.

[BillM]

Bill the walleye index for mature walleye has been down for 3 consecutive years. There were alot of smaller walleye caught this year but that is in relation to the change in mesh size on their nets.

 

Gotcha.

[Nipfisher]

Nipfisher (and others).

 

When fish are being harvested in a negative/harmful manner, it can still be reported.

 

I'd suggest making some phone calls and asking questions to the right people, and getting educated on the laws. So you know what means to approach to protect the fishery.

 

Just because a person is Native, does not give them the right to fish with dynamite, so to speak.

 

I know this is a touchy subject, but alot of this is based on ignorance.

 

 

MB2,

I feel I am quite knowlegeable on the resources and fishing pressure on Lake Nipissing. I am also very understanding as well. I love this lake and I love fishing it. The fish are still there and you can still do well but you have to work for them. That is what I like doing. Going out and drifting/trolling to find the fish then trying to get them to bite. I have spoken to NFN peoples and administration in the past about illegal nets, band members selling live fish, and spearing. THey deal with thier people in their traditional manner. Through a justice circle. Those who are caught netting during the spawn are shamed by the community.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Nipfisher

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

i wholeheartedly believe when we start treating our first nations better on the whole, they will be less militant about protecting out of date harvesting rights.

[manitoubass2]

Nipfisher,

 

I didn't mean for that post to make it sounds like you weren't educated on your home waters, sorry if you took it that way.

 

I can totally understand your worries towards your fishery, I'd be offended as an angler if you didn't, lol.

 

What I meant though, was that there are tons of little laws in the Indian act that alot of people are not aware of, it's def. not common knowledge.

 

One thing I want fellow anglers to understand, is that a status card IS NOT providing a right to abuse the fishery. I know alot of people believe that "status" allows Native Americans to fish and hunt and keep whatever they want, and thats just not true. Of course, some of this stems from ignorance of the laws on all parts, including CO"s.

 

It is my understanding Nipfisher (and I may be wrong?), but under the Indian act, a reservation may NOT make by-laws of their own in regards to the preservation, protection and management of fur-bearing animals, fish and other game on the reserve;

And the means of harvesting fish must be done in a manner that doesn't harm the fishery, nor abuse the resource.

So yeah, anyhow, I think your totally in the right here for being concerned about this issue. I think it's wrong of them to target spawning fish, with a spear nonetheless.

I'd be making some phone calls if I were you to see what can be done. Native or not, this is not productive to any fishery, and is blatant overharvesting IMO, by a means that does not respect the resource.

[Headhunter]

i wholeheartedly believe when we start treating our first nations better on the whole, they will be less militant about protecting out of date harvesting rights.

I believe that when everyone is treated equally, then we will not have any of these issues...

HH

[Lip-ripper]

I think they absolutely have the right to do it. Pretty sure they would have been picking up walleye on the spawn when europeans came here.

 

Good point, but the Natives of old were incredibly smart when it comes to nature/harvesting. I've seen fashioned dip nets that were used along time ago, so they could release spawning females. Can't do that with a spear.

 

That's part of the issue as well. In the past, natives didn't use halogen headlights, neoprene hip waders and factory made metal spear tips.

Back then I'd assume using a hand-made spear, while hunting by torchlight and standing in the lake in the beginning of April. Might be a tad bit tougher than today.

Don't even get me started talking about nylon gill nets, boats and outboards.

 

I have no problem with native traditions and rights continuing, I just think it would be more in-line to have them use traditional methods as well.

[manitoubass2]

That's part of the issue as well. In the past, natives didn't use halogen headlights, neoprene hip waders and factory made metal spear tips.

Back then I'd assume using a hand-made spear, while hunting by torchlight and standing in the lake in the beginning of April. Might be a tad bit tougher than today.

Don't even get me started talking about nylon gill nets, boats and outboards.

 

I have no problem with native traditions and rights continuing, I just think it would be more in-line to have them use traditional methods as well.

 

The traditional methods would not include much of spearing IMO, but rather fashioned nets made with pounded wood. I could be wrong as to the specific band/tribe, but I doubt it. Traditional methods of hunting and fishing were to use the easiest, most efficient way to harvest the animal or fish. A traditional Native would not have purposely harvested female fish during a spawn, as it goes against everything they stood for. Same reason as I would think that spears were not used for fishing purposes.

 

What is being done here I think is learned ignorance. That is the only way I could see them using a poor method of catch, during a spawning period. If I'm right, this is probably something that is relatively new, and not traditional.

 

Thats the only way I can see it, because it makes no sense at all.

 

And those limits need to be dealt with, 20 fish per day is too much, regardless of the method used.

 

I agree with the points your making though, it's a tad absurd to use such methods to catch fish.

 

 

Edit: I'm wrong. Certain tribes indeed spear fished as a main source of food. I'm speaking with a local Elder and he says fish that were easily smoked were the main targets(suckers/sturgeon). Which I guess makes sense as the food would be easier preserved for longer periods.

Edited April 16, 2012 by manitoubass2

[Nipfisher]

And those limits need to be dealt with, 20 fish per day is too much, regardless of the method used.

 

 

 

There nets can catch 50 to 100 fish daily and they are allowed 4 nets.

I have seen a boat pull in with nets and coolers. Coolers heald over 160 walleye. Mixed in were bass, pike, sheepshead, and perch.

 

They set up an assembly line and process the fish right in plain view. Some who are registered will take it to the processing plant on reserve.

 

The commercial harvest target is about 46,000 kg a year (101,412 lbs.) , but it would be 66,000 kg (145,505 lbs.) if the fishery was at its potential.

 

 

 

One point I made earlier is that I have been offered and saw live walleye swimming in an aerated chest freezer. Now that is just plain illegal unless "you are on reserve" .

Edited April 16, 2012 by Nipfisher

[manitoubass2]

There nets can catch 50 to 100 fish daily and they are allowed 4 nets.

I have seen a boat pull in with nets and coolers. Coolers heald over 160 walleye. Mixed in were bass, pike, sheepshead, and perch.

 

They set up an assembly line and process the fish right in plain view. Some who are registered will take it to the processing plant on reserve.

 

The commercial harvest target is about 46,000 kg a year, but it would be 66,000 kg if the fishery was at its potential.

 

 

 

One point I made earlier is that I have been offered and saw live walleye swimming in an aerated chest freezer. Now that is just plain illegal unless "you are on reserve" .

 

 

 

The 4 net rule you mention there, is that for residents of the reserve? Or for commercial fishing purpose?

 

Also, I'd like to hear

Clayton Goulais

thoughts on how anyone is determining the sex of the fish before spearing??? Are they guessing based off size? Or is there some other method I'm not aware of?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2012 by manitoubass2

[Spiel]

I believe that when everyone is treated equally, then we will not have any of these issues...

HH

 

[Nipfisher]

The 4 net rule you mention there, is that for residents of the reserve? Or for commercial fishing purpose?

 

Also, I'd like to hear

Clayton Goulais

thoughts on how anyone is determining the sex of the fish before spearing??? Are they guessing based off size? Or is there some other method I'm not aware of?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe the 4 net rule is per fisherman. Therefor any band member with a boat or access to one. Band members do not have to be registered with the band but they encourage it and there are benefits to registering. Fish caught by registered commercial fisherman and processed at the NFN processing plant are "Certified Nipissing Walleye" and sold in 2 local shops run by NFN for $14 per pound. Some of the unregistered fishermen sell walleye for $3-$6 per fish right out of their homes.

 

I have sent a message to Clayton. He has not been on here yet this year.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Nipfisher

[crosshairs]

Good evening all, i see there is alot of questions and personal opinions mentioned in here. Alot of these questions were answered at the lake nipissing summit, which a report will be completed shortly for everyone to view.

 

As mentioned by many of the people at the summit, NFN numbers (catch) hold 100% more weight than the numbers created by the OMNR by their "creel census". we have 20 Commercial fisherman on 10 boats, I see them 4 times a week, 80 % of them must drive by my house with their boat when going out, they are audited, catch forms are mandatory not like the joke of Creels. So if tested in court the only numbers in question are the anglers numbers. Everything NFN does is well documented, they are preparing to have a very very loud voice in the management of lake nipissing. Tourist outfitters at the summit were the ones to question the creel, also they had great concerns reguarding the enforcement of angers regulations. CO's on the lake are unheard of were the comments from an outfitter. Pretty scary. And I don't blame the OMNR, they are doing what they can as we are.

 

Now anyone who has ever speared walleye for any period of time can clearly tell a female from a male. Females do spawn at a later age than males, so yes size does help, also depending on the timing the females don't sit on the shoals until they are ready to spawn. They will stage in a little deeper water until they are ready. The actions a female make are also different than the males, the males are high strung scurrying around looking for a female, while the females are lazing around with their stomachs bloated waiting to release the eggs. Also when a female is ready she will splash around and you will see anywhere from 3-10 males around her spawning her out.

[crosshairs]

Commercial Fisherman can set 5 nets, subsistence can set 3. Night fishing and night hunting were relatively new because indian agents(non natives) would not allow people to hunt or fish, so people had to hide at night to get food for their families. They were not allowed guns etc anyhow.

 

It doesn't matter what NFN does people will not be happy. At least they have stepped up to the plate to work towards a better future when they don't have to. The courts are behind them 100%. The court decisions that have been made to date have rated the fishery in where the crowns priorities lye.

 

PRIORITY #1 --FN's subsistence

PRIORITY #2 -- FN's commercial

PRIORITY #3 -- Sport fishery

 

If NFN decides tommorrow and says to hell with it the walleye sport fishery will be the first chopped. If there is still no response in the walleye fishery then the FN commercial fishery will be hit, then again if no response to the walleye fishery is seen subsistence harvesters will be affected. So rather than work with the FN lets keep blaming them.

 

Another point brought up at the summit by tourist outfitters is the lack of enforcement for anglers. guests show up and just know know one is out there, these comments were echoed over the 2 days. So how accurate is the "optional creel cencus". NFN has obtained data from a creel done in 1999 and 2000 that creeled the whole day of fishing of 2 sectors and found that there numbers "actuals" were actually double to triple what creel estimates were showing. Sustainable management ???, not to mention the jump in huts during the winter. When we NFN point fingers we have facts to back our comments.

[solopaddler]

As mentioned by many of the people at the summit, NFN numbers (catch) hold 100% more weight than the numbers created by the OMNR by their "creel census".

 

What exactly do you mean? That NFN netters catch 100% more walleye than recreational anglers?

 

Sounds reasonable although a little conservative with the number.

 

If you meant that figuratively, who cares if the creel census numbers aren't accurate? I mean seriously, recreational anglers aren't the problem.

 

we have 20 Commercial fisherman on 10 boats, I see them 4 times a week, 80 % of them must drive by my house with their boat when going out, they are audited, catch forms are mandatory not like the joke of Creels. So if tested in court the only numbers in question are the anglers numbers. Everything NFN does is well documented

 

That fact that NFN members are being audited and everything they do well documented is a completely moot point.

 

So the demise of a once great fishery is being documented for what? Posterity?

 

 

CO's on the lake are unheard of were the comments from an outfitter. Pretty scary. And I don't blame the OMNR, they are doing what they can as we are.

 

That is unfortunately a common theme everywhere in this province.

Scary? No not really. In the grand scheme of things recreational anglers breaking fisheries laws are becoming a rarity.

 

In this day and age most anglers are well educated on the merits of catch and release and selective harvest.

 

 

they are preparing to have a very very loud voice in the management of lake nipissing.

 

Now that on the other hand is a scary thought indeed.

Nothing like having the inmates run the asylum.

 

Now anyone who has ever speared walleye for any period of time can clearly tell a female from a male.

 

Really? Really?

 

 

Females do spawn at a later age than males, so yes size does help, also depending on the timing the females don't sit on the shoals until they are ready to spawn. They will stage in a little deeper water until they are ready. The actions a female make are also different than the males, the males are high strung scurrying around looking for a female, while the females are lazing around with their stomachs bloated waiting to release the eggs. Also when a female is ready she will splash around and you will see anywhere from 3-10 males around her spawning her out.

 

I'm glad to hear that every NFN member who's spearing walleye is such a knowledgable armchair biologist.

 

You've certainly dispelled any worries that any egg laden females are being harvested. Thank you for that.

 

 

Personally I have zero problems with native Canadians living by a different set of rules than the rest of us. Sure let them net and spear walleye. ONLY if it's for sustenance. If they're selling walleye fillets out of roadside stands, the back of pick up trucks and to restaurants in Toronto, well that's another matter.

 

Nipissing cannot withstand native harvesting of fish and still remain a viable fishery.

 

There is an intrinsic value to Nipissing's fishery that is priceless and goes far beyond the obvious economic benefits. Generations of anglers have fished it year after year for decades. Many of the lodges are virtually historical landmarks they've been around that long. The fishery on Nip is the lifeblood of North Bay and the entire region. If native harvesting doesn't stop it will spell doom for not only the local economy, but a way of life for many and an intrinsic part of our northern heritage. The bottom line is NFN members need to stop decimating Nip's fishery NOW and find themselves a suitable alternative.

[crosshairs]

Then to top it all off OMNR declines to participate in a lake nipissing summit, can they make our case for co management of lake nip any easier. I know it isn't the locals, they don't make any decisions but someone in peterborough must know how bad that looks. crap a simple presentation.

 

Commercial fisherman do Mandatory catch forms, they are audited, spearing, non compliance, all fish NFN take are accounted for. The fisherman can sell the fish to who they wish for what ever they wish. The processing plant is optional for them to use, but again all fish are accounted for. NFN's catch this year was 19989kg and the estimated angler is somewhere around 6000kg. Don't quote my numbers these are off the top of my head.

 

i think it is the best interest of the lake for everyone to work together. We all have a part in the lakes demise. Logging, fishing, railines, sewage, farming, it all ends up in the lake not to mention the enviromental factors that know one can control.

 

Sorry for my rant but hey others think they are more conservation minded than FN's, i am conservation minded, and very very passionate about this lake. A community of 800, I am related to over half. I give up alot to protect this lake and I don't even fish it because i'm too busy patrolling it for crap pay. Another thing. What is the difference in taking a female in march through the ice or on the spawning bed?? the outcome is totally the same. Shut it down for 10 years to all, then allow a certain number of licences to fish it, no winter fishing, FN's commercial take out = the same of commercial outfitters. Catch and release only, again these are my personal opinions not the FN's.

 

So lets question my conservation mind. LOL keep the lake free of everyone. When treaties were signed we didn't have motor boats, but the same treaty you's are apart of (traded for land to live)you's didn't have motor boats or cars either. The treaty didn't give us anything, we kept what we had you's gained land so actually in my mind it is your treaty.

 

There I went on again, sorry all just under alot of pressure during this time of year. Good Night

[crosshairs]

Solo paddler I never said I am a biolist just sharing my knowledge, but NFN does have a biologist on staff where OMNR don't. NFN don't have to stop anything if they don't want to, they have legal right to the fishery over everyone else. They are just trying to work with people to fix the complex problems happening in the lake. Not just fishing.

 

Our numbers will hold more water so to speak than the OMNR who is non existant in the whole picture.

 

And like I said earlier, it doesn't matter what we say. All i know is , i'm not one whos taking fish out.

[crosshairs]

Proper fisheries management might need to ignore the almighty dollar and do what is right for the lake, and not humans.

[esoxansteel]

How many Walleye are harvested by cottagers at night on rivers and lakes where walleyes live and spawn? no one knows but it is likely comparable in many instances, i do not see or hear people complaining about that, the right to fish and hunt for there personal use and cerimonial purposes is in their constitution, from treaties ie the Williams treaty signed many years ago. I have Native Status (Ojibway) and I do buy a fishing licence, as i hope the MNR will use it for the resourse, as all of us do. I do pay taxes as I am an off reserve native, as many of us are. I have no problems with Natives harvesting fish or game for rights stated within their treaty, remember Natives were hear long before the European Settlers, who could in fact be classed as an invasive species.

[Terry]

this and land claims will go on for ever

 

and it was their land......they say it is still their land

 

I do see their point

 

we should bite the bullet and pay everyone of them a very large sum...like a million bucks for each one over the age of 18

and somewhat less for the younger ones

 

and they give up all land claims they become full Canadian citizens and lose all rights and benefits of being native...it would cost a fortune but in the long run the country would save money and problems ..

 

and save some fish too...LOL

 

 

they would have to vote on it

[Terry]

How many Walleye are harvested by cottagers at night on rivers and lakes where walleyes live and spawn? no one knows but it is likely comparable in many instances, i do not see or hear people complaining about that, the right to fish and hunt for there personal use and cerimonial purposes is in their constitution, from treaties ie the Williams treaty signed many years ago. I have Native Status (Ojibway) and I do buy a fishing licence, as i hope the MNR will use it for the resourse, as all of us do. I do pay taxes as I am an off reserve native, as many of us are. I have no problems with Natives harvesting fish or game for rights stated within their treaty, remember Natives were hear long before the European Settlers, who could in fact be classed as an invasive species.

 

this is a different issue..and if I see cottagers getting fish out of season I don;t have to complain ,,I deal with it, the cops take them away life is good

 

you are talking about people breaking the law

which is way different then what the natives are doing

[solopaddler]

How many Walleye are harvested by cottagers at night on rivers and lakes where walleyes live and spawn? no one knows but it is likely comparable in many instances, i do not see or hear people complaining about that, the right to fish and hunt for there personal use and cerimonial purposes is in their constitution, from treaties ie the Williams treaty signed many years ago. I have Native Status (Ojibway) and I do buy a fishing licence, as i hope the MNR will use it for the resourse, as all of us do. I do pay taxes as I am an off reserve native, as many of us are. I have no problems with Natives harvesting fish or game for rights stated within their treaty, remember Natives were hear long before the European Settlers, who could in fact be classed as an invasive species.

 

 

Sorry, but there's no way that walleye illegally harvested by the odd cottager amounts to what the natives are doing.

 

I also see the irony of my earlier statement where I talked about the heritage of ours that's being decimated by the netting and spearing.

 

I do agree that native Canadians have every right to net and spear. If it was only for ceremonial purposes and sustenance there'd be no problem, but it's not.

 

When those treaties were signed natives weren't using high tech equipment to harvest hundreds of thousands of pounds of walleye.

They were doing it in a manner that was much more sustainable.

 

There comes a time when enough is enough and regardless of whatever was signed in those ancient treaties, common sense must prevail. If natives reserve the right to adapt their tactics, increase their harvest numbers exponentially all the while utilising modern day methods and techniques, the treaties should be amended accordingly!

 

This entire question brings to mind a joke that somehow seems fitting:

 

 

An Arab enters a taxi..........

 

Once he is seated he asks the cab driver to turn off the radio because he must not hear music as decreed by his religion. In the time of the prophet there was no music, especially western music which is music of the infidel's and certainly no radio.

 

The cab driver politely switches off the radio, stops the cab and opens the back door.

 

The Arab asks him: “What are you doing man?”

 

The cabby answers: “In the time of the prophet there were no taxis, so get out of my taxi and wait for a camel!”

 

 

Edited April 17, 2012 by solopaddler

[Nipfisher]

Thank you Crosshairs for adding the points of NFN.

 

Thank you to all who participated in this thread and to all those who have bitten thier tongue's on this sensitive issue. If your comments were not productive I appreciate you not posting them.

 

Thank you mods for watching this closely and allowing the discussion to go on. I hope this continues as I believe this forum is capable of adult conversation and discussion.