Rice Lake panfishTourist Ass. at it again!

[chessy]

The regs don't differentiate but the MNR's study DOES. They are a different fish and if you can't tell the difference I invite you to come on down and one of our US anglers will point out the differences to you. Pumpkinseed, redear and sunfish are different names for the same fish. The study states that bluegill numbers have stabilized. This is despite agressive fishing for 30+ years so with the decreasing numbers of US visitors decreasing over the last few years that should be more than enough for these numbers to INCREASE which may not be good. Our concern is what will happen to other fisheries if they are allowed to flourish practically unhindered.

I never said NO one is coming but we have had several cancellations. That in itself would not bother us if these limits were biologically warranted as we DO care about the future of the Rice Lake fishery. Please try to be open minded and try to see that there may be a different perspective than the one you see. Our guests have been throwing large males back. With these new regs they will keep them as they're limited to numbers. You can't blame them. If they can only keep 300 fish after a 2 week vacation they might as well make it worthwhile.

Most resort owners are fishing licence issuers and take this responsiblity seriously. We have often educated our guests on the dangers of "accidently" catching bass when not yet in season, even if they throw them back, yet we've seen plenty of "locals" obviously fishing for bass out of season. We've worked with the MNR to try to increase the size of bluegill. We ask our guests to voluntarily through large pickerel back as they are the breeders. We are not objecting to any of the regs other than the bluegill. We care about the lake.

 

your not serious are you .... that would be like saying the US dollar is the same as a Canadain dollar a few years ago. This type of statement just proves you do not care what happens as long as money comes your way. if you cared about the FISH so much you would know how to tell them apart .

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

Come on lady! I can hear the google'ing all the way in the north!

 

Edited April 10, 2010 by Dr. Salvelinus

[bigfish1965]

Well, apparently I am not a 'real' fisherman... my feelings are hurt.

I think the fact that the majority of Ontario anglers are against your proposal would give you pause. But it appears that is not the case.

Comparing one moose to 300 fish is a fairly poor straw man argument. Fallacious reasoning is never a good idea.

There is so much fence sitting being used by the group...

A- We are worried that year round fishing will harm the fishery

B- We thing that a 300 fish limit is too low.

C- We are worried what will happen if the fish don't all get eaten...

 

It is clear you knowledge of biology is rather limited. What happens to high populations of prey? It increases predator populations and decreases prey individual size until balance is reached then it goes back. It has been that way since the dawn of life on this planet. The difference between us and other predators is that we have freezers.

 

Why don't you stick to the argument that is true and can be worked on...

"We believe the new limits are a contributing factor to a decline in reservations and occupancy. Since socio-economics must be considered in limit studies, we would ask the MNR to keep this in mind when the next set of regulations come out. In the mean time, we will aggressively market the Rice Lake area as not only a fishing destination, but as a family recreation area as well and ask for Tourism Ontario's help in this transition."

 

Your initial tactic failed..and yet it continues to be modified, even to the point it is contrary to the initial argument, and no one has stopped to say..THIS IS WORKING!

You cannot win without the support of the stakeholders, which believe it or not is not just you. It is all the residents of Ontario, specifically all the fishing license holders.

Get these guys on your side if you want a chance. You are really outgunned.

[chessy]

Well, apparently I am not a 'real' fisherman... my feelings are hurt.

I think the fact that the majority of Ontario anglers are against your proposal would give you pause. But it appears that is not the case.

Comparing one moose to 300 fish is a fairly poor straw man argument. Fallacious reasoning is never a good idea.

There is so much fence sitting being used by the group...

A- We are worried that year round fishing will harm the fishery

B- We thing that a 300 fish limit is too low.

C- We are worried what will happen if the fish don't all get eaten...

 

It is clear you knowledge of biology is rather limited. What happens to high populations of prey? It increases predator populations and decreases prey individual size until balance is reached then it goes back. It has been that way since the dawn of life on this planet. The difference between us and other prey is that we have freezers.

 

Why don't you stick to the argument that is true and can be worked on...

"We believe the new limits are a contributing factor to a decline in reservations and occupancy. Since socio-economics must be considered in limit studies, we would ask the MNR to keep this in mind when the next set of regulations come out. In the mean time, we will aggressively market the Rice Lake area as not only a fishing destination, but as a family recreation area as well and ask for Tourism Ontario's help in this transition."

 

Your initial tactic failed..and yet it continues to be modified, even to the point it is contrary to the initial argument, and no one has stopped to say..THIS IS WORKING!

You cannot win without the support of the stakeholders, which believe it or not is not just you. It is all the residents of Ontario, specifically all the fishing license holders.

Get these guys on your side if you want a chance. You are really outgunned.

 

From what I see from some of the previous post. they probably assume that a DEER FAWN and a moose are one in the same animal . and of course we all know what assume means

[Dutch]

Hey guys - let's not feed the trolls.

 

Keep this thread open on on the first page. It would be sad to see this thread go to the wayside as it provides a lot of information and really highlights the fact the current regulations are adequate.

[Rice Lake resident]

Why don't you stick to the argument that is true and can be worked on...

"We believe the new limits are a contributing factor to a decline in reservations and occupancy. Since socio-economics must be considered in limit studies, we would ask the MNR to keep this in mind when the next set of regulations come out. In the mean time, we will aggressively market the Rice Lake area as not only a fishing destination, but as a family recreation area as well and ask for Tourism Ontario's help in this transition."

 

Have you read Terry Quinney's report to Peterborough county? It speaks nothing of biology but only about potential revenue for the county. As for Tourism ONtario...that's just funny. Are you ready for another tax?

 

Your initial tactic failed..and yet it continues to be modified, even to the point it is contrary to the initial argument, and no one has stopped to say..THIS IS WORKING!

You cannot win without the support of the stakeholders, which believe it or not is not just you. It is all the residents of Ontario, specifically all the fishing license holders.

Get these guys on your side if you want a chance.

 

Our guests are also licence holders and pay a lot more for that privilege than you do. They will speak with their wallets and revenue for licences will continue to go down as they have for the past 3 years. Whatever. We'll survive and I guess the fishery will eventually prove who is right.

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

Your guests are not the "OWNERS" of the waterbody. Unfortunately for your argument, each citizen of Ontario, whether they hold an angling license or not, indirectly own a share of Rice Lake. Your American guests PAY MORE for this privelege because they are guests on OUR lake. Yes, much to the chagrin of your campaign you do not own the land and waters of our province any more than I do.

 

Also, have you not a defense for your blatant ignorance on fish ID? Do you think spreading propaganda to a knowledgeable angler base does anything for your campaign but harm?

Edited April 10, 2010 by Dr. Salvelinus

[Grimace]

The American/Canadian Dollar is keeping people away, not the limits. This is insanity. Americans are simply not getting the bang for there buck because of the currency.

[danbouck]

This is the new record for replies right?

 

:wallbash:

[bigfish1965]

Our guests are also licence holders and pay a lot more for that privilege than you do. They will speak with their wallets and revenue for licences will continue to go down as they have for the past 3 years. Whatever. We'll survive and I guess the fishery will eventually prove who is right.

 

No, your guests do not pay more to fish here than I do. I pay much, much more. Taxes and actual money spent by resident anglers far outweigh the two week vacationers..both overall and per capita.

Nice try though.

More importantly, we get to vote. We are concerned with the overall health of the fishery...nothing else. No extra agendas to be reconciled. I have far more trust with the MNR on this issue.

The same argument was made when walleye limits were cut and yet, the sky didn't fall and fishing related tourism felt the same changes as other tourism.

Your business changes are due to a poor US economy and a lack of adaptation on your part, no other reason. If you spent half as much time working on promotion and altering your business plan as you do making this futile argument, you may have already made up for the changes.

[chessy]

I cater to number of people from virginia and they stay free at our houses but they only come ever couple of years now due the the fact that the dollar is not as worth as much . plain and simple and when the rainbows went from 5 to 2 that did not bother them but when the dollar sucked .. they cared. now that the dollar is higher i go there to do my hunting and fishing .. nothing like a good striper bass,and virginia deer

Edited April 10, 2010 by chessy

[tightline]

They are predicting the Canadian dollar to rise above the Americans again by July...guess we'll see who's dollars you love more then...

[Twocoda]

I cater to number of people from virginia and they stay free at our houses but they only come ever couple of years now due the the fact that the dollar is not as worth as much . plain and simple and when the rainbows went from 5 to 2 that did not bother them but when the dollar sucked .. they cared.

 

 

there was panic by the thousands when the bows went from 5 to 2 but eventually everyone settled down and the fishery is outstanding now due to the limit...!!!!!!!! Solo,Bill and others seem to be ambassadors of truth to this

 

Personally i dont ever want to see it at 5 again ....its just greedy/shameful/ and a waste of resource to keep that much fish in the freezer

[chessy]

next we have to work on the charter boats they are still allowed 5 per person

[irishfield]

Say what Chessy... I didn't think there were two sets of fishing regulations....

[chessy]

oops what i ment to say was if your fishing in river your allowed 2 if fishing in lake your allowed 5

[irishfield]

Okay... .comprendea...

[Twocoda]

oops what i ment to say was if your fishing in river your allowed 2 if fishing in lake your allowed 5

 

 

not 5 trout...you can have a combination of 5 fish ...5 can be salmon ... if you catch 2 trout only three can be salmon...you cant catch 5 trout you can only catch 2 hence the reason most boaters put lakers back in and keep on fishing for chrome be it a salmon or a rainbow...this is kind of interesting because technically a rainbow is a salmon but rainbow in our Zone is only two

[Ron]

I have not posted before as I have no desire to get into pointless arguements but this one is just funny. How can an "all knowing angler" not know the difference between bluegill and sunfish? They are very similar but since you have quite a few opinions on the subject you really should understand the facts.

 

"Differences between bluegill and redear arise when comparing the habitat

and feeding requirements of the two. First of all, Redear sunfish are very

structure oriented, unlike their Bluegill counterparts who will frequent open

waters. Like bluegill, redear sunfish consume small aquatic insects. However,

snails and other mollusks comprise a large portion of the Redear's diet. Although

both species will inhabit sand and gravel beach areas during their

spawning season, Redear sunfish usually reproduce only once per season,

reducing the time they will be in the beach area"

 

The rest of this article can be found at http://www.ibnature.com/Redear,Bluegill%20Sunfish.pdf. There are a couple of pictures to make it easier for you to understand. Americans prefer bluegill (the invasive species) as it has more meat and is less bony than the indigenous sunfish.

 

Go ahead and check my ip address. I am Jodi from Alpine Resort. If you'd like to see the difference come on over any time in June and some of our REAL fishermen will show you the difference and might even give you some tips on cleaning fish so there is no waste.

 

Perhaps you should do your home work as you will find Bluegill is a Sunfish, We don't have Redear Sunfish on Rice Lake. We only have Bluegill and Pumkinseed. And here I thought you were the all knowing Resort owner....

 

Cheers, Ron...

[Ron]

So what your saying Jodi, all of Rice Lake Tourist Ass. don't know the difference between a Bluegill and Pumpkinseed either. Either that or they just don't have a trophy for the biggest Bluegill...

 

RICE LAKE TOURIST ASSOCIATION

BIG FISH CONTEST

OFFICIAL ENTRY FORM

Trophies will be awarded for the following largest fish by weight:

WALLEYE • LARGE MOUTH BASS • SMALL MOUTH BASS • MUSKIE • CATFISH

PERCH • SUNFISH • ROCK BASS • CRAPPIE • CARP

 

Official entry form for Rice Lake Tourist Ass.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Ron

[Ron]

The following quote is from the Northumberland Today:

 

Re: Those opposed to ice fishing missing easy money (Northumberland Today,Tuesday, March 30):

 

Rice Lake resort owners are fully aware of the reasons for the decrease in American visitors. Bluegill limits are just one more thing to stop them from coming and would be acceptable if it was biologically warranted.

 

A limit of 500 sunfish or bluegill was suggested to appease public perception, not because it's needed. Fifty per day would be much more acceptable to some than a 300 possession limit. "In the case of bluegill, there appears to be a stabilization of abundance.... These species both compete at various levels with the native pumpkinseed sunfish, which have shown a gradual decline in abundance over the same time period."

 

If you have read the study as posted on the MNR website at www.mnr.gov.on.ca/264327.pdf.

 

It is obvious that these new regulations contradict their own objective for the sunfish and bluegill fishery.

 

"OBJECTIVE: To increase proportion of larger sunfish 180mm (7") or greater in existing bass and sunfish dominated communities to provide associated socioeconomic benefits"

 

Note that those who fish for bluegill throw sunfish back so they are not contributing to the decline of that species. The study states that the number of bluegill in Rice Lake is not in peril. Members of the Rice Lake Tourist Association have been voluntarily encouraging guests to throw the large male bluegill back and keep all of the small ones for the last five years as recommended by the Ministry of Natural Resources. Volunteers also staked out fishing sanctuaries but the MNR refused to support this until last summer. This funding was offered to the RLTA. The MNR have no intention of doing the work and at this time, the RLTA feels it's pointless.

 

Bluegill and sunfish are cichlids and are fairly dormant during winter, ice fishing for them is pointless. This winter many pickerel were caught and released. When pickerel are taken from the water during winter they are subjected to undue stress and are likely to die even if put back. The introduction of ice fishing opens the lake up to further possible poaching. Poaching has been observed by some residents on the lake but of course, the MNR was nowhere to be found.

 

Rice Lake is NOT as safe as other lakes. It is shallow and full of springs and currents. The Roseneath fire department answered six emergency calls directly related to ice fishing in the 59 days it was open this year. That's just the Roseneath area.

 

Resort owners do not feel they own the lake and pay plenty of tax. These taxes go up regardless of resort income.

Jodi DeJong Roseneath

 

Article ID# 2523174

 

 

Seeing as how you replied to my other posts Jodi, perhaps you can answer a few questions for me in regards to this article.

 

 

What is the limit for panfish in the rest of Ontario?

 

What is the difference between a Bluegill, Pumkinseed and a Sunfish?

 

Why are people throwing the Sunfish back, are they too small?

 

When the RLTA voluntarily staked out the spawning areas, did anyone fish these spawning areas?

 

Has poaching only been a problem since the new fishing regulatoins?

 

If Bluegill are "stabilized" in Rice Lake, how is the size base holding? If it has increased in size, by how much? If it has decreased in size, by how much? Let's take this over a 5 year term.

 

Is it only pickerel (walleye) that are subject to undue stress and are likely to die?

 

Would this happen to Bluegill, Perch, Muskie as well? Would this be applicable all year round or only during the winter months?

 

Why is Icefishing pointless for Bluegill?

 

Why is Rice Lake not as safe as other lakes?

 

Does the Trent Severn Waterway only travel through Rice Lake, bypassing all the other lakes between Lake Simcoe and Lake Ontario?

 

Is Rice Lake the only lake that is shallow on the TSW?

 

Could you point out where all these springs are?

 

 

I look forward to your answers.

 

Regards,

 

Ron Reyns

Edited April 11, 2010 by Ron

[chessy]

Well ron if they win the higher limits . looks like i will put the scuba gear on and dive in front of there docks keeping all the boats in the area either on shore or off shore . if we get a bunch of divers we could actually close off some bays and keep all fishermen on the docks at certain resorts . there is more than one way to skin a fish

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

i'm still hung up on the fish ID lesson today...

[Rice Lake resident]

The following quote is from the Northumberland Today:

 

 

 

 

Seeing as how you replied to my other posts Jodi, perhaps you can answer a few questions for me in regards to this article.

 

If you are open to reasonable discussion and not just a pissing match, I am happy to try to respond. I don't claim to be an expert angler since I don't have time to fish but will answer what I am able to.

 

 

What is the limit for panfish in the rest of Ontario?

Why?

 

What is the difference between a Bluegill, Pumkinseed and a Sunfish?

http://www.ibnature.com/Redear,Bluegill%20Sunfish.pdf

Pumpkinseed and sunfish are the same fish.

Bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus)

Redear Sunfish (Lepomis microlophus)

 

Why are people throwing the Sunfish back, are they too small?

 

A bluegill has more meat and is less bony. If you hold a bluegill and sunfish of the same size you can feel the extra meat along the back bone of the bluegill.

 

When the RLTA voluntarily staked out the spawning areas, did anyone fish these spawning areas?

 

The volunteers, with the help of a few guests, found spawning areas where the male bluegill were relatively large but they were never marked as the MNR rescinded their offer to fund markers. The RLTA was not going to buy markers since they have no authority so it would be pointless.

 

 

Has poaching only been a problem since the new fishing regulatoins?

 

Of course not. I may not know much about fishing but why are there boats out at night right now? We've seen people fishing close to shore when bass season is not open. What are they fishing for? The extended season just opens more OPPORTUNITY.

 

If Bluegill are "stabilized" in Rice Lake, how is the size base holding? If it has increased in size, by how much? If it has decreased in size, by how much? Let's take this over a 5 year term.

 

Have you read the study? That answers that question. I only have anecdotal information. Our guests noticed a slight increase in size last summer. These guests will now be keeping the large males as they are restricted in numbers.

 

Is it only pickerel (walleye) that are subject to undue stress and are likely to die?

 

As an angler I'm sure you know the answer to that. Muskie are even more sensitive. Bass are a lot tougher.

 

Would this happen to Bluegill, Perch, Muskie as well? Would this be applicable all year round or only during the winter months?

 

It is particularly true in winter, especially if it's very cold, but is also true in summer.

 

Why is Icefishing pointless for Bluegill?

 

Perhaps you should do some research on that. From what I've read their metabolism slows down and they don't feed as much. They go into a period of semi dormancy.

 

Why is Rice Lake not as safe as other lakes?

 

Does the Trent Severn Waterway only travel through Rice Lake, bypassing all the other lakes between Lake Simcoe and Lake Ontario?

 

Are you serious?

 

Is Rice Lake the only lake that is shallow on the TSW?

 

I don't know. I'm sure you do. My concern is Rice Lake. Others can worry about lakes they understand much better than I.

 

Could you point out where all these springs are?

 

I know of two right in the bay in front of our resort. We mark them on the rare times we can skate on the lake. There is also a huge pressure crack that comes up without warning. I know of one truck that got stuck on it this winter. He called 911.

 

I look forward to your answers.

 

Regards,

 

Ron Reyns

[danbouck]

Nice fish