Guest lundboy Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 (edited) Well had an interesting visit with my boat dealer yesterday. First off, I don't want to see any comments about should have bought a Mercury, my Evinrude has been great except for this problem! I had this ongoing problem over the last 4 years wherein the cap on the fuel-pump on my motor would warp and raise up then loose it's seal internally allowing water to mix with the fuel. Since this pump has water pumped through it to keep the fuel at a more consistent temperature, it means that once failed, it introduces water directly into fuel then into the injectors, which causes the motor to stall out before it even get going. I have had this pump replaced 3 times only once under warranty from Evinrude. It is about $400 every time. Last time was last year. It has now started to raise again (visually)... although it has not failed yet. I asked the dealer if they have had any other Evinrude Ficht customers with this problem and they said "Oh yeah, lots." They have been discussing it with BRP and the feeling is that the E10 fuels may be the cause. It is causing all kinds of fuel line rotting, tank rotting etc. and the plastic cap on the fuel pump may be affected by this as well. My dealer switched to Mercury back when OMC went under, so they have been selling OptiMax for quite a while, and have been seeing lots of internal fuel line problems cropping up recently. The internal lines are rotting, causing the internal line diameters to close blocking fuel flow. He showed me piece of a line (from tank to motor) that was damaged and it was so swelled inside that you could barely see the light from the other end. Also showed me fuel filters so clogged with rubber debris that they had to be changed. After discussions with Mercury and BRP, both indicated to him that there is potentially huge repercussions starting to show and no-one will take the blame for it (especially the oil companies). So it looks like there will either be class actions or the end user will take the brunt of the costs on repairs or replacement of equipment. He gave me a copy of this article from Boats and Places magazine, 2007 Summer Issue. Ethanol Enhanced Fuels Potential for Problems By Mike Gridley The subject of ethanol-blended fuel and its impact on boat engines is becoming a hot topic around the docks. Ethanol is a highly refined beverage alcohol that can be produced from corn, wheat or sugar cane. It is an oxygenated hydrocarbon compound that has a high octane rating, hence its use in unleaded fuels, Since the introduction of unleaded fuels, MTBE was used to boost octane. Due to environmental concerns, MTBE is being replaced by ethanol to formulate ElO fuels, gasoline that contains up to 10 per cent ethanol by volume. While ethanol fuels are significantly more prominent in the US, provincial legislation is seeing E10 fuels beginning to flow into Canada. In checking with several engine manufacturers, including Mercury, Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki, all of their engines are compatible with E10 fuels. However, Mercury did state that due to the lower BTU rating of ethanol you may see a decrease in fuel efficiency of three per cent. So, the issues and problems related to ethanol fuels are primarily in the tanks and fuel lines. Newer boats and engines have fuel lines and seals in the fuel systems designed to handle ethanol, but in older boats it can break down these components resulting in leaks or debris being ingested by the engine, causing damage. Regardless of the age of your boat, ethanol also acts as a powerful solvent that can loosen gums, varnish and corrosion in your boat's fuel tanks and system, clogging the filters and damaging injectors, carburetors and other fuel system components. If your boat has fibreglass fuel tanks, ethanol dissolves the resins in the fibreglass, leading to serious leaks and severe engine damage. The other major concern with E10 fuels is ethanol's amazing ability to attract and hold moisture. Ethanol can attract four water molecules for every ethanol molecule. In the automotive world, moisture isn't a big issue. In the marine environment, this is bad news. Larger marine tanks, vented to the annosphere, are prone to absorb large amounts of moisture when they sit for longer periods. If there is significant water in your tank prior to fueling up with E10 or enough moisture is absorbed so the ethanol is saturated, the ethanol and water mix can separate and settle to the bottom of the tank. This is known as phase separation. The upper phase with reduced ethanol has a lower octane rating that can lead to engine damage. If the lower phase of water-saturated ethanol, sludge and debris become high enough to be picked up, severe fuel system problems and engine damage will result. Ethanol fuels can also lose their octane rating in as little as three weeks. The octane number can drop by three ratings, resulting in engine damage. So how are we supposed to handle the new E10 fuels and protect our engines and fuel systems? First, prior to filling up with E10 fuel, drain your tank or burn off as much of the MTBE fuel as possible. As well, make sure there is no water in your tank. Maintain a full tank as often as possible to minimize air exchange and moisture absorption. For long term storage, Mercury highly recommends complete draining the fuel tanks. Where this is not practical, fill to at least 90 per cent capacity and add stabilizer. It is highly recommended to add fuel stabilizer every fill-up to maintain the octane rating and absorb any moisture, selecting a stabilizer and treatment, ensure it is fuel-based, NOT alcohol based. The most critical element in managing ethanol fuels and protecting your engine is filtration. Every manufacture stressed the need to install ethanol-compatible water separating fuel filters. The filters must be changed on a regular basis. Also, make sure to carry spares to replace a clogged filter if water and debris bring you to a halt. The best prevention for problems related to ethanol fuel? Use your boat frequently to keep it supplied with fresh fuel. (LB:edit Somehow I don't think the above line is going to solve this problem) Edited July 22, 2007 by lundboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 You shoulda bought a Mercury. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greencoachdog Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 I know you're kickin' yourself right now for not buyin' a Merc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish1965 Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 My Merc is guaranteed safe with ethanol gas up to 10%. Shoulda got a Merc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danc Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 Merc's don't have that problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lundboy Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 (edited) HaHaHa..... Guess I asked for that.... That's funny... Optimax are starting to show signs of plastic/rubber rotting as well (EVEN the ones that are certified to 10%). And even if your's aren't showing any probelms (yet), don't be so sure your 5-10 year old boat fuel systems will handle it so well, because they AREN'T certified for ethanol. Edited July 22, 2007 by lundboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishfield Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 (edited) Stay away from ethanol at all cost...even if it means buying premium fuel to do so. We've been dodging ethanol and alcohol in fuel in the aircraft industry for going on 10 years now. It rotts fuel lines, removes sealers used in fuel tank manufacture (causing leaks and the sealer lodging in filters and carb jets) and does nasty things to plastic fuel tanks and parts. Find a good source for your fuel and stick with it.... and when on the road be very cautious. If the pump says "may contain..." go elsewhere. Edited July 22, 2007 by irishfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffw Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 I work for a petrocanada wholesaler and will tell you that this conspiracy against ethanol is garbage. I know for a fact that the fuel we get never has more than 2% ethanol in it and think about it if all cars ran off ethanol then companies like esso and petrocanada would go out of business. Anyways thats just my 2 cents. Cheers Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lundboy Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 (edited) I work for a petrocanada wholesaler and will tell you that this conspiracy against ethanol is garbage. I know for a fact that the fuel we get never has more than 2% ethanol in it and think about it if all cars ran off ethanol then companies like esso and petrocanada would go out of business. Anyways thats just my 2 cents.Cheers Jeff Hmmmm.... Must be something else in the fuel that is rotting the lines and rubber seals, and causing damage to rubber parts and plastic parts then. I've seen the damage in my hand, up close... so has my dealer. It's not happening by conspiracy theory! They aren't putting stickers on the pumps that say "Contains upto 10% ethanol" IN CANADA for nothing. btw How did you come by your fact? (i'm just curious) Edited July 22, 2007 by lundboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boatman Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 Good choice on the Evinrude. Ontario and BC have legislated that all fuel must contain up to 10% ethanol so you can't actually avoid it anymore. The mixing is done at the refinerary (as I understand) and its by volume so you don't know exactly how much ethanol will make its way by percentage to the pump. Its no conspiracy. By adding ethanol to a lower quality fuel you can get a higher price for what was once low grade crude. That's the very same principle that makes the tar sands in Alberta viable. Also, you create another agricultural market. It gives the farmer one more way to make money. The benefit to the government is that we all think it means we will be less dependent on oil (foreign or domestic), increases the rural economy and gives us the warm and fuzzy feeling that we are helping the environment (bullcrap, but don't get me started on that one). Ethanol will damage motors. The best thing you can do is to use a quality fuel stabiliser everytime you fill up your boat. And don't store gas for long periods of time. Try to buy it as you need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tybo Posted July 22, 2007 Report Share Posted July 22, 2007 This all starts back in th 70's and metal storage tanks. Back in the grand old days. The mechanic was the gas station owner. With the 100% introduction of unleaded fuel and the catalytic converter also the high level of condensation in the steel tank. that engines would not run right. So to fix this problem they started to use Methyl in their holding tanks. The Government Doesn't want to be responsible for this, so they put in law the the gas companies have to start using methyl in the gas to help prevent rust in the tanks. The gas companies have no problem with this because it's cheaper to make then gas. So now it's the 80's and a few thousand tanks rust out do to the water. The government man dates that all metal tanks have to be remove by owners, And replaced With thees very expense glass fiber tanks. Independent owner goes broke and three large fuel companies move out(BP,Gulf,Fina). Now the new tanks don't condensate as much. Do they remove some of the Methyl, No. It's not doing any harm and it's cheap. So now their all this Methyl in the gas doing nothing lets add the right amount of water. That it wont do any harm. You also see a very common problem with gas burning engine almost disappeared. Gas line freeze up. The Govt gets into the oil game. Well being the Govt they have to tell the public of all UN-natural products they put into the gas. Little sticker start popping up the says, contains Methyl-hydrate. Now it's the 90's, and oil companies have playing around with Ethanol and gas for the last 20 years. They find out that gas,Methyl and ethanol with a high content of water start to break down Petroleum product on contact(2-stroke oil,fuel lines,gaskets,O-rings and silicone). Methyl an E-10 are both hydrates. They will pull the moister out of every thing. Not a problem, we control the amount of water is in the gas and when we get this through legislation. We will get the Govt to make the companies that make the hoses and etc. That their material can with stand this new concoction. We will have the ECO-system on are side. So do the go to Washington. Nosirry they go to California. Puff like magic it's in legislation. So they start testing with the public. The Canadian Govt finds out.(some thing more to tax)starts their own testing. Now where to pick to do are testing. Well first we are going to need a area that has all 4 seasons. A board member has a brilliant Idea. We'll do it right in the heartland, right where it all starts. The cash strap farmer will love the idea as long it puts money in their pockets. This is where the problem starts. In the mid west it is aired in this area. The new fuel works great. The bill goes through but doesn't be come law(can't remember what that is called) But man-dates that the manufacturers Of hose an etc have to start to make their product to spec. USA,1996 Can.1999 As i mention before that you have to hydrates in you fuel now One that draws the hydrogenate and one the oxygenate. Which in turn makes the water even heavier then normal. This doesn't mean much , but how ever at a station that doesn't pump much gas will have a higher level sitting in the bottom of their tanks.Up to 10%. This is cause by condensation. Which the pumps draw from. Now as a boat owner you know that a higher amount moisture is going to be a part of your fuel. You know, rain snow waves and condensation. We where learnded that when we have water in are fuel is to add gasoline anti-freeze. Which is methyl-hydrate. With the higher concentration the petroleum products dry rot faster. Thats why all engine manufacture recommend to use a fuel stabilizer. Like stabil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacklebuster Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 I contacted Mercury myself several months ago due to a similar post. They informed me that anything below 10% was fine. However, in light of some of the replies to this post I have a couple of questions. Why is ethanol more harmful to a boat motor as opposed to a car motor? How are you supposed to "avoid" ethanol, when every pump states that there may be up 10%? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbouck Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 I contacted Mercury myself several months ago due to a similar post. They informed me that anything below 10% was fine.However, in light of some of the replies to this post I have a couple of questions. Why is ethanol more harmful to a boat motor as opposed to a car motor? How are you supposed to "avoid" ethanol, when every pump states that there may be up 10%? Took the words right out of my mouth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Because your boat sits more than your car does! Joey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boatman Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 You can't avoid ethanol anymore. Ethanol is more harmful to 2 stroke boat motors than 4 stroke. And it is more harmful to 4 stroke boat motors than car motors. That part will make more sense in a minute. Ethanol is alcohol and alcohol will react with gas and the atmosphere and accumulate free water in your gas tank. Over time it can also separate from the gas (alcohol and gas don't mix well). Therefore, you run the risk of free water or alcohol being drawn into your motor possibly resulting in damage. Running on alcohol is especially devastating to a 2 stroke since the alcohol removes all the lubrication from the inside of the motor causing catastrophic failure. These problems don't normally effect cars because the gas in your car is usually used up quickly and is frequently mixed as you drive. Ethanol needs time to attract moisture and to phase separate. You just don't normally give your car's fuel enough time to do that. So the moral of the story is to always stabilise your fuel and try not to store fuel for extended periods of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplumma Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 Since alcohol is an oxenator it will cause all rubber products to be effected but some manufactures are using different materials to combat this problem. All of my two strokes have not had any alcohol related issues while using a good pemium oil and proper winterization should give you many happy years to come. Art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiel Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 stupid question.... Why dont they stabalize it. Why do we have to? We are paying for this right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 That's far from a stupid question, Skiel. But they already gouge us whenever something happens like over abundant clouds or something. What a perfect setup for them. They put in an 'additive' which renders the fuel unstable then now they'd be upping the price at the pumps for adding a stabilizer....Gawd lov'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tybo Posted July 23, 2007 Report Share Posted July 23, 2007 The fuel is stable for the shelf life of the gas. which is about 6 weeks. A few things you can do. Keep your tank full, A full tank condensates less. Use a fuel stabilizer when the gas is going to sit for a long time. Install a fuel,water separator. Shake the boat once in a while to mix the fuel back up. For ready mix. Keep you tank out of direct sun light. flush your tank regularly. This will also help in the right mixture. Keep the tank full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacklebuster Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) I read some info that gasline antifreeze removes water from your gas tank? Is this true, and if so, wouldn't this solve the whole problem? Edited July 28, 2007 by Tackle Buster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lundboy Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 Unfortunately Fuel Line Antifreeze is methanol (another alcohol). It will just complicate matters. BTW most alcohols cause corrosion with aluminum. Not something that we really need to add to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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