Lake Ontario Atlantic Salmon

[BillM]

That would speed the process up; but there are other factors to consider.

 

Hatcheries who are willing to provide eggs may not be willing to part with their brood stock.

 

The MNR takes several samples during the development of the fish from the egg to adult stage. Long before a fish reaches adulthood, several of its syblings will have been tested for various deseases. If their syblings don't have the deseases then they probably don't either. This wouldn't be practical if you were starting with adults.

 

It is most likely against MNR policy to use adults to create a brood stock. There are valid reasons for these policies.

 

It seems the MNR has a handle on using broad stock from Nipigon to stock all of Ontario with brookies, weird they wouldn't take stock from an already self sustaining fishery out east.

[Guest chrisrobinson]

Hello Craig,

 

Bottom line is, however, that right now, and for the past several years, Ontario has stocked roughly the same number of chinook and Atlantic salmon each year (approx 500,000 fish). The half-million chinook produce a viable sport fishery, while the Atlantics do not. The truth hurts, but there it is.

 

What is missing from that statement is that the two species are stocked for different reasons. The Atlantics are not stocked to create a "viable sport fishery", that is a straw man argument used by naysayers to create false expectations for the program. Long term a sustainable fishery is part of the goal, but establishing the population is the first priority.

 

You also aren't taking biomass stocked into account in your calculations nor the reasoning for the difference in sizes stocked, which goes back to the rationales for stocking each. Additionally, there is a lot of wild production going on in chinook, supplementing their numbers.

 

By way of further comparison, the chinook salmon program is on its third attempt. They were stocked between 1874 and 1881, but "didn't amount to much". Ontario tried again between 1916 and 1925, NY lasted until 1933, but it was a "dismal failure". NY started again in 1969, Ontario in 1971, by 1977 the program was still not considered a success, with "negligible returns". Talking to biologists from that time, they feel the only reason chinooks got a hold was when the sea lamprey control program started to take a bite out of that problem. So if fisheries managers were as faint-hearted around chinook as some would like them to be around Atlantic salmon, we wouldn't have chinook today. The rest of the species making up the modern salmon and trout fishery were also tried and failed at various times in the last 130 years.

 

Species restoration takes time, committment, and adaptive management. Elk took 13 years for a hunt, and that was only on one of the four populations being re-established. American eel will take about 90 years to restore in Lake Ontario; lake sturgeon about 300 years if the province tries active restoration, about 400 years if they try passive restoration. Lake trout restoration is still underway in Lake Ontario.

 

So for those involved in the program, the truth doesn't hurt because we have realistic expectations of what the program is attempting, the timelines for recovery, and we are seeing those benchmarks exceeded, despite some of the setbacks (two years of hatchery losses) along the way.

 

We cannot rely on the Atlantic salmon program as the future of fishing in Lake Ontario.

 

Nobody is and nobody involved in the program said we should. Chinook remain in the Fish Community Objectives as the top predator in the lake, and the other species also have their objectives. As John from CRAA mentioned, Atlantic salmon are an addition, not a replacement.

 

Yours in Conseration,

Chris Robinson

OFAH Atlantic Salmon Program Coordinator

[Hairpy]

Bill, I would disagree that the MNR uses Nipigon brookies to stock all Ontario rivers. Wouldn't that be taking away from the wild population?

 

The Atlantics are stocked at many life stages to see what works best. Even though the history of stocking Ats in Lake Ontario does not seem to carry much weight we are now seeing results in the creeks and the lake. I don't get to fish much these days but I actually have caught 3 atlantics this fall and 2 in the lake last year out of 3 total outings. They are definatly there and I hope they continue because they are a great addition to an already awesome fishery!!

 

Joseph

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

ontario uses brood from nipigon, hills lake, etc for their brookie stocking. eggs and milt are collected from wild fish periodically to form the basis of the next many generations of fish. these fertilized eggs are separated into "families" so that they may be crossed strategically to maintain genetics. adults whom the eggs/milt are collected from are screened for disease.

[esoxansteel]

I am fully for re-establishing a species that once called Lake O home, as well as any other body of water, or land animal as well, unfortunately people have different objectives on what they want from the reintroduction, I see success with the Atlantic program, and Jons sitings and angler catches back that up, with returns going up each year, as more Atlantics are introduced by stocking and natural reproduction, those numbers should continue to rise, to the satisfaction of the people involved with the program, who have realistic goals, and measure successes differently then the masses, Keep up the great work to all groups involved

[danjang]

=

 

Species restoration takes time, committment, and adaptive management. Elk took 13 years for a hunt, and that was only on one of the four populations being re-established. American eel will take about 90 years to restore in Lake Ontario; lake sturgeon about 300 years if the province tries active restoration, about 400 years if they try passive restoration. Lake trout restoration is still underway in Lake Ontario.

 

 

This adds to my point. These goals won't happen overnight. If we scrap the atlantic salmon program because we don't see the results now, they will NEVER return to Lake Ontario. Should we just scrap all restoration programs because it costs too much? Think about how much money goes to organisms that don't really have an economic value like the red side dace where they essentially built a highway around/over it's habitat. I know this is a fishing forum and this train of thought may not appeal to some people but there is a great deal of value to this program. As a big bonus this program will create a fishery too.

[Garnet]

I hear the argument that maintaining the Atlantic program has contributed to stream rehab. What I don't hear is where these projects were done, how many, were did the money come from.

 

The first MNR bio tech was just out of school when he was assigned Atlantic restoration and has been retired for some years now.

 

We need to see this latest plan threw.

[Twocoda]

The Mirimichi River in NB is a world renowned Atlantic salmon fishery that is visited by tourist from all over the world to try their hand at fighting this magnificent species. The rules down east are very stringent (fly fishing only) and tags are assigned for the class of fishing licence you get…resident, non resident(Canadian) and non Canadian, bounty and fees adjusted according to the type of licence( very few tags for a lot more money if you’re in the “non”groups ….

if the Atlantic program is successful in the restoration of the species to Lake O ….does anyone think there is a plan in place to protect the Atlantics from being decimated once again ? Seems this whole endeavour will be for not if they arent protected like they are down east. I honestly think it is a lesser crime in NB and NS to commit an infraction against a human then it is to commit an infraction against a salmon. Will the credit become a” Fly” only river? Will there be Atlantic Tags? Will COs be beefed up to prevent flossers and rippers? Heavier Fines? Granted it is a bit easier down east because of the population differences but history has a way of repeating itself if accommodations aren’t made.

I fished the credit in mid September of this year and seen what I thought were 2 large Atlantics( 7 ish or 8 pounds) in a pool amongst the chinnys…I did switch from roe to flys but to no avail of hooking up with one…

 

This is an excellent thread…I hope it continues at this level of integrity and respect to the opposing oppinions….

Personally ....i would LOVE to be able to fight Atlantics in Ontario...i would visit the Credit on a regular basis opposed to once in the last 12 years

 

Cheers!

[John Bacon]

It seems the MNR has a handle on using broad stock from Nipigon to stock all of Ontario with brookies, weird they wouldn't take stock from an already self sustaining fishery out east.

 

I am not sure that we have the same understanding of what a brood stock is. I consider brood stock to be fish raised in captivity for the purpose of producing offspring that are stocked. They are using already sustaining fisheries to create brood stock for Lake Ontario. This takes time because they collect eggs and raise them to adulthood before they begin producing significant numbers of fish to stock.

 

Are you suggesting they simply harvest the eggs from these self sustaining populations to stock the Lake Ontario watershed? If this strategy were adopted there would be a risk of introducing new diseased or parasites into the Lake Ontario watershed. It would also require a large number of eggs to be removed from the other populations which could impact those populations.

 

Collection eggs for the creation of brood stock requires fewer eggs to be collected. There are also fewer transfers required and more time to check for deseases before releasing the fish into the watershed.

[J-M]

John and Justin,

 

It's nice to see that the Atlantic program is contributing to stream rehab, i am also curious as to where this stream rehab has been completed and what type of projects have been completed? Is there any rehab being done on any other rivers but the Credit??

 

Also, I am interested in some further figures John, I would like to know what the cost of raising 'stockable' atlantic salmon is costing, if possible, do you have a breakdown of the cost per fish? say like $.50 per fish stocked or something like that?

 

I'm no expert, but I've heard fish rearing and stocking can be quite expensive and I would just like to know what the cost of raising an atlantic salmon would cost? Can anyone help me with this?

 

Thanks

 

 

[J-M]

The Mirimichi River in NB is a world renowned Atlantic salmon fishery that is visited by tourist from all over the world to try their hand at fighting this magnificent species. The rules down east are very stringent (fly fishing only) and tags are assigned for the class of fishing licence you get…resident, non resident(Canadian) and non Canadian, bounty and fees adjusted according to the type of licence( very few tags for a lot more money if you're in the "non"groups ….

if the Atlantic program is successful in the restoration of the species to Lake O ….does anyone think there is a plan in place to protect the Atlantics from being decimated once again ? Seems this whole endeavour will be for not if they arent protected like they are down east. I honestly think it is a lesser crime in NB and NS to commit an infraction against a human then it is to commit an infraction against a salmon. Will the credit become a" Fly" only river? Will there be Atlantic Tags? Will COs be beefed up to prevent flossers and rippers? Heavier Fines? Granted it is a bit easier down east because of the population differences but history has a way of repeating itself if accommodations aren't made.

I fished the credit in mid September of this year and seen what I thought were 2 large Atlantics( 7 ish or 8 pounds) in a pool amongst the chinnys…I did switch from roe to flys but to no avail of hooking up with one…

 

This is an excellent thread…I hope it continues at this level of integrity and respect to the opposing oppinions….

Personally ....i would LOVE to be able to fight Atlantics in Ontario...i would visit the Credit on a regular basis opposed to once in the last 12 years

 

Cheers!

 

Twocoda, very good points. Right now, atlantic salmon are considered an "endangered species" in Lake Ontario. So we can't actually target and fish for atlantics. My quesiton, how long will they be considered an Endangered species before they even let us try to actually target and fish for them? It could be 10, 15, 20 years from now.....

[aniceguy]

my understanding is that Atlantics have been classified as extinct now

[danjang]

The Lake Ontario strain of Atlantic salmon is extinct. I believe the MNR had set the limits for Atlantics in order to help the reintroduction.

Edited November 6, 2011 by danjang

[Gregoire]

I was just thinking about the fact that some lakes have landlocked salmon. I believe these are genetically classified as Atlantic Salmon. If the whole point of the stocking program is to reintroduce a species why not use this strain?

[justin elia]

John and Justin,

 

It's nice to see that the Atlantic program is contributing to stream rehab, i am also curious as to where this stream rehab has been completed and what type of projects have been completed? Is there any rehab being done on any other rivers but the Credit??

 

Also, I am interested in some further figures John, I would like to know what the cost of raising 'stockable' atlantic salmon is costing, if possible, do you have a breakdown of the cost per fish? say like $.50 per fish stocked or something like that?

 

I'm no expert, but I've heard fish rearing and stocking can be quite expensive and I would just like to know what the cost of raising an atlantic salmon would cost? Can anyone help me with this?

 

Thanks

 

One major improvement to the river has been the construction and completion of the new fishway at Norval. It was funded partly by a group out the US that donates to projects like this one. John and I wrote a lengthy application requesting funds for the project and we were awarded partial funding for the entire project. Another aspect that most are unaware of is the amount of paper work that comes with even the smallest job.

 

John can probably touch base as to where trees have been planted, banks have been stabilized, etc etc etc.

 

As far as the a monetary figure associated with fish rearing, I haven't the clue. We have our own hatchery with Rainbow Trout, Brown Trout, Coho Salmon and Atlantic Salmon that is managed by volunteers of CRAA and funded through government grants. They are always looking for people to help out with daily chores if you're interested.

 

Justin

[wallacio]

I find it more than a bit hypocritical that some of the staunchest supporters of this program are the same ones delibertately targetting this fish which has a closed season, often under the guise of "Bass fishing" and are posting grip and grin photos. Granted, you'll catch them when targetting other species which are in season but taking photos of a fish which is not in season is bad form not to mention illegal.

[John Bacon]

I was just thinking about the fact that some lakes have landlocked salmon. I believe these are genetically classified as Atlantic Salmon. If the whole point of the stocking program is to reintroduce a species why not use this strain?

 

At least one of the new strains (Sebago Lake) is from a land locked population. I believe the MNR is trying both land locked and ocean going strains to determine which is best for Lake Ontario.

 

The land locked strains are comming from much smaller lakes than Lake Ontario. They are not necessarily better suited than an ocean going strain.

Edited November 6, 2011 by JohnBacon

[john from craa]

Funding has gone into the three main tributaries thus far (Credit, Duffins and Cobourg), with some recent work on the Humber and Bronte. Chris R from OFAH could outline their work on Cobourg and other systems. Cobourg has had much rehab work as a result. On the Credit CRAA has done much of the work, but OFAH, TU, CVC and others have done much work related or partially funding from the program too.

 

As Justin noted, the largest project the program has spurred is the new fishway at Norval Dam on the Credit. The new fishway opens access for almost 100 hectares of cold water habitat that has been shut off since 1850! Just how much habitat is that? It's about the same as Duffins, Cobourg, Oshawa and Wilmot Creeks combined. I worked on the project for 13 years to make it a reality. The Atlantic program and funding for the specie, and others like redside dace made it possible to design and build the new fishway. In recent decades government funds for this sort of work have been very tight. Managers and NGO's like CRAA plan work to benefit all the species, but the funding has to be targeted at species at risk. Nobody is interested in funding to help a dace or sucker or a steelhead of chinook. But bringing back a lost specie has merit from third party, non fishing types. The Norval fishway has lifted roughly 20 species this year. Funding was provided for Atlantic salmon, redside dace and American Eel. Yet we all know the fishway will benefit dace, chub, sucker, bows, browns, bass, etc, etc. The fishway cost roughly $300k for design and build plus siginificant in kind. CRAA funded about 40% of the project though Species at Risk (MNR), CFWIP (MNR) and the National Fish and Wildlife Fund from the US that Justin noted. Behind the scenes these funding apps take hundreds of hours for volunteers to write, administer, complete accounting and work with contractors and MNR staff.

 

CRAA has completed between 3 and 4 million dollars worth of rehab aimed at all species. But in recent years the Atlantics have added to our success in finding every more scarce funding sources. The last 5 years has seen maybe 25,000 trees, a dozen ponds removed or bottom drawn, and many other small scale rehab works as a result of the program

 

As for cost of rearing fish...I have no idea. MNR just invested a great deal of money in Normandale as a result of the program, and that has made space for chinooks as well. The cost for each age group should be somewhat similar, except food costs might vary. Example is young chinooks eat a lot more food than young Atlantics and bows so maybe their cost is a little higher due to food. I would guess Atlantic and steelhead will have similar costs at the hatchery since they have a similar growth pattern.

 

I guess from Wallicio's comment we should not be fishing the river at all. I have fished for smallies and chinooks/coho/bows for 25-30 years and just because we catch some Atlantic's I'm not about to change my fishing heritage. Having a quick photo certainly benefits with fish id and confirmation and is not illegal as Dave attemps to point out. As long as the fish is released immediatly and unharmed your following the laws. Like any release, proper handling is important. Perhaps we can make little signs up for the roe bags and flys that say "not for Atlantics". Teaching the fish to read...that might take time.

 

As for strains, MNR has different protcols depending on the source to control disease. Fish from same waters, fish from elsewhere in the province and fish from out of province and each has a different level of control. It is not a simple case of driving to NB and picking up 100k of eggs and driving home. The rules require either the eggs come from a certified disease free hatchery, in which case they still test the eggs and various life stages of the fry and adults. If not certified they require the body of each adult to be tested for a hige lineup of diseases.

 

The rules are hard to work with, but better this than the potential disaster unfolding on the West Coast where Infectous Salmon Anemia has likely spread from fish farms to wild BC salmon. Controling things like VHS and Whirling disease are prime examples.

 

Atlantics are now classified as extinct. Classic government screw up as we catch more now than ever. Is that extinct?

 

As for a season and fishing, I would hope in a few years we will see a catch and release season. The end goal is a viable self sustaining population with a sport fishery. But that is in the future. I doubt we will see Maritime type of rules, but having some sections restrited to no bait or fly only might be a good option for management and attracting new investment, but never the whole river.

 

The specie went extinct mainly from dams, habitat damage and comercial fishing. So as long as we have strict harvest controls angling should be fine.

 

John

[wallacio]

Funny, there sure are a lot more "Bass fishermen" on the river these days after a rain in August swinging flies and spinners through the tailouts. If anyone asks, when I hook a Lake Sturgeon on the Notty in May with giant gobs of worms I'm fishing for Suckers...

 

Further, on the topic of photographing OOS fish, the regs state that they are to be released IMMEDIATELY and I'm pretty sure that posing for "grip and grin" photos do not count as an immediate release. Don't believe me? Here's more info on the same subject directly from the MNR. Excerpt from this link:

 

http://www.outdoorontario.net/AskMNR/mnrfaqfish.html

 

Question 186:

 

Hi, if an angler has incidental catches of any species (out of season) & has a posed picture taken with the fish out of the water prior to being released, is it unethical, against the regulations etc, or perfectly fine, providing care was given to the fish?

 

Asked August 25, 2003

 

Answer from the MNR

 

This is very technically a violation because the fish is not immediately released to the water. Of course, the actions of the angler in their handling of the fish will determine whether a charge is warranted and would be laid by a Conservation Officer. Think of it this way. The speed limit on the 401 is 100km/hr. Very few drivers will be charged with driving 101km/hr, but given the right set of circumstances, there may be perfectly legitimate reasons why an officer might write a ticket for doing 101km/hr in a 100km/hr zone. The only way to be 100% sure that you will not be charged is to immediately return any incidentally caught fish to the water and to release it in a manner that causes the least harm to the fish.

Edited November 6, 2011 by wallacio

[aniceguy]

Dave I see where your point is leading to here.

 

One thing any program needs to continue in particular when outside funding is sought is some form of a deliverable. Something tangible that provides proof that regardless of quality a program is taking roots and funding should continue, I’m sure your very aware of this as your rather in tune with most issues.

A few years back sanctuary licenses were issued to MNR staff, private citizens, OFAH, and some members of CRAA for the exact purpose of providing some deliverables.

What happened was short of amazing, 100 plus Atlantics caught captured and transferred above Norval to assist in creating a self-sustaining fish, a byproduct hundreds upon hundreds of fall rainbows were also transferred, and I assure you if not for the salar they would never have gotten that ride.

 

If a "grip and grin" was required as part of the process I believe it served its point to provide an optical record of the catch. Sadly Cronzy and many I believe even you quietly bashed the entire process from an optical perspective, adhering to internet forum posts as gospel, and not taking the path to finding the truth.

The fish were caught and brought in some cases 500 yards in a plastic bag with water to a holding tank, eventually transferred above Norval, a huge daunting task, sadly due to the Cronzy's of the world the program was ended due to optics by the MNR, I’m sure the managers are kicking themselves here and every single steelheader should push to have the program run to provide the maximum deliverable

 

End result was the catch rate at the ladder at Streesville dropped to less than half of what it was yet the run had an exponential increase. Obviously the Chinooks in the ladder at the same time displaced the Atlantics and as a result they fall back to the various staging pools to never go ahead of Streetsville, hence the need for scientific collectors permits. Virtually no fall rainbows are transferred now and we have MNR trying and failing at an exponential rate to do what was accomplished via a scientific permit by individuals who wanted to see something work.

 

The side benefit of this permit was also the unfettered transfer of Fall Rainbows above Norval, in the next few years those returning fish will be a huge benefit to the fall run on the Credit something lots here will enjoy.

 

It’s a slippery slope when someone accuses someone of breaking the law when all the facts aren’t in place, grip and grin might very well been part of a scientific collectors permit and required as a method of providing deliverables on a project, has that occurred to you? Are you aware of the specific protocols involved with these past permits?

I have had dozens and dozens of emails, facebook messages, texts and crap on a rivers edge on this same question, by many who just dont understand the process, I though you would have known a bit more on this.

 

Seriously Dave you need to re think things before you post and figure out if your post is just part of the problem of providing information on fishing boards that is in accurate and can lead to a false assumption. Someone one said never ASSUME the connotation of it is quite clear. Please make sure your posting information that’s correct in the future. If you’re unsure I’m sure you have many folks you can contact and my number is always a dial away, sorry if this was harsh Dave but posting someone is breaking a law without all the facts...........well.sorry mods delete if it crossed a line

Edited November 6, 2011 by aniceguy

[Guest ThisPlaceSucks]

i just wanted to add that atlantic salmon are extirpated, not extinct.

great discussion here folks.

[aniceguy]

i just wanted to add that atlantic salmon are extirpated, not extinct.

great discussion here folks.

thier designation is extinct, an MNR group has them clasified as that, extinct and in a recovery program,unless they changed it in the last 4 weeks

[wallacio]

My final thoughts on this subject:

 

My comments have absolutely NOTHING to do with the santuary licenses that were granted in past years. Unlike others, I did not have an issue with the licenses nor with the practise of angling under this license for study/assessment purposes.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but the santuary licences were not issued this year yet you and I both know full well that Atlantic Salmon are being deliberately targetted in the river at certain times of the year (ie July, August) and with species-specific tactics including by members of your organizations "executive". Please don't insult our collective intelligence by citing that other species are being targetted as part of some "hertitage pursuit" and that Atlantics are simply by-catch. THIS is what I take exception to...ie the continued deliberate targetting of a species for which the season is closed. I used the Sturgeon analogy to demonstrate how ridiculous and dishonest it is to cite by-catch as a defense. In fact, many sections of rivers in Ontario are now full or part time sanctuaries so that anglers could not hide behind the by-catch loophole.

 

Further, as previously I stated one cannot avoid catching them in legal pursuit of other species (ie Steelhead, Salmon, Bass etc). With that said, the regs state one is to release them immediately and not snap hero shots of them if you do catch one. Again, I am referring to present day...one of the photos posted in this thread with a fish being held for a photo shows the date (September 2011) in the file name so this fish was not caught with a sanctuary license (feel free to correct this assumption if not accurate).

 

I actually want to see this program succeed and have no doubt that our rivers are already better places thanks to the efforts under the program. My only point is that fishing regulations should be obeyed by ALL of us at all times. This point should not be difficult to agree with...

Edited November 7, 2011 by wallacio

[danjang]

My last thoughts on this subject.

 

My comments have absolutely NOTHING to do with the santuary licenses that were granted in past years. Unlike others, I did not have an issue with the licenses nor with the practise of angling under this license for study/assessment purposes.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but the santuary licences were not issued this year yet you and I both know full well that Atlantic Salmon are being deliberately targetted in the river at certain times of the year (ie July, August) and with species-specific tactics including by members of your organizations "executive". Please don't insult our collective intelligence by citing that other species are being targetted as part of some "hertitage pursuit" and that Atlantics are simply by-catch. THIS is what I take exception to...ie the continued deliberate targetting of a species for which the season is closed. I used the Sturgeon analogy to demonstrate how ridiculous and dishonest it is to cite by-catch as a defense. In fact, many sections of rivers in Ontario are now full or part time sanctuaries so that anglers could not hide behind the by-catch loophole.

 

Further, as previously I stated one cannot avoid catching them in legal pursuit of other species (ie Steelhead, Salmon, Bass etc). With that said, the regs state one is to release them immediately and not snap hero shots of them if you do catch one. Again, I am referring to present day...one of the photos posted in this thread with a fish being held for a photo shows the date (September 2011) in the file name so this fish was not caught with a sanctuary license (feel free to correct this assumption if not correct).

 

I actually want to see this program succeed and have no doubt that our rivers are already better places thanks to the efforts under the program. My only point is that fishing regulations should be obeyed by ALL of us at all times. This point should not be difficult to agree with...

 

I photograph the Atlantics I catch to send in to CRAA. Although I know my fish, it's tough for CRAA to determine numbers if everyone said they caught an Atlantic without hard proof. They can get an idea of size, sex and if it had one, tag numbers.

[Remastered]

I would agree that Atlantic Salmon are increasing. I caught my first one ever this past February on the lower credit. I say we give it more time before jumping to conclusions because by the looks of it the runs have been growing much stronger the past few years.