Fact or Fiction?

[Musky or Specks]

I have had permits for scientic collection in the past that have allowed me to take over my limit and fish out of season these type of permits are issued on a regular basis for collecting scientific data. And while it may sound like fun getting to fish Shelter Valley Creek in early April for untouched steelhead it was.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Musky or Specks

[vinnimon]

Maybe these guys are allowed to fish out of season,perhaps there are loophole government grants and permissions(permits) for the sole reason of education.If this is true why are these shows not broacasted on aptn or tvo. they are gov sponsered arnt they?These fish are out of season for a reason.i bid my farewell to this topic,too peed off. cheers vinnimon

[vinnimon]

If your doing a scientific study for the mnr thats fine, as long as there are permits to do so in conjunction with the mnr and/or inland waters.They used to due this in caledonia every year untill a few years back apparenetly.

[dada2727]

Sometimes I think "fishing ethics" go too far. Don't get me wrong, I am an advid kawartha muskie and bass fisherman, 100% catch and realease, but pretty soon I have a feeling I am going to be screamed at for having hooks on my sledge! (muskie jerkbait)

My buddy allready takes the back hook off because "It can hurt the fish". Hurt the fish? What about the other 2 trebles buried in it's jaw? As a very knowledgable musky hunter said on another board, "you only need to see one big fish hanging on by the last treble to change your mind." Pretty soon people are going to have no hooks and you'll hear "WOW, that was a 50 inch strike for sure!"

 

There is nothing wrong with following regulations, I don't agree with harvesting muskie, but I'm not about to judge somebody for exercising their legal right, I might educate them a little thats all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should trust the MNR to make good decisions and regulations, after all, that's what they get paid to do and as much as some of us hate to admit it, they know a lot more than we do about fisheries management.

 

Kind of reminds me of how I could be a way better GM for the leafs......bring up Kadri and put in the Monster!

[craigdritchie]

TV show hosts are not allowed to fish in closed seasons, in sanctuaries, or for out-of-season fish just because they have a TV program. Period.

 

In the past Ontario has issued permits to some TV show hosts so they could shoot educational programming. However, the criteria for these permits are very specific. TV fishing shows are not normally considered 'educational programming' - especially when the show exists as a for-profit enterprise. Following the Henry and Italo fiasco of the early 90s, these permits are now almost impossible to get.

 

The truth of the matter is, if the TV show host knows how to fish, they don't need to shoot in sanctuaries or during closed seasons to begin with. I shot a pile of steelhead episodes with Bob Izumi for the Real Fishing Show over a span of about 12 years, and all were shot during regular open season. One segment was shot on private land (a farm I had access to), and the other 10 or 12 segments were shot on public stretches of well-known rivers anyone can go to. Of course, we could do that because Bob knows how to catch fish. I can't say that for every TV show host I've met.

 

I have held a couple of scientific collection permits over the years, and they are very specific as to where and when you can fish. They have nothing to do with filming a TV show.

[Marc Thorpe]

Wow, I really don't know what to say Marc .. I really respect what you do in the industry but calling out my ethics and base line threatening me seems a bit much don't you think? I don't think I need to toot my own horn here either with what I try to give back to the sport that has given me so much in return...

 

Fishing Lake Erie in the spring is completely 100% legal and I am fishing pre spawn feeding fish in depths over 20 feet of water with water temps in the 40's. These fish are over a month away from heading into the shallows to spawn... typically the ice is only out for a week or two when we are out there. However, if I were to choose to sit on a nesting fish I am still 100% within the New York state law... they make them, I am abiding by them. Is it any different in Texas, Florida, California or other Southern States in February? Are all of the Elite Series or FLW Pro's morally unethical for participating in the events during the pre spawn or spawn? I don't think so at all... personally it really isn't my place to judge them since they are all well with in the limits of the set laws by local DNR agencies.

 

Like GCD said, one can very easily put together a show on fishing nests effectively but I choose not to for my own personal reasons... that again is my choice since my show also airs here and I am respecting the Canadian rules and regulations.

 

I have absolutely no interest in getting to an argument with you regarding this and I typically don't appreciate being judged by someone who really doesn't know me... I really think there are better ways to get your point across. I also understand you are frustrated with the B1 and what happened this year regarding the open season but please don't take this out on everyone who enjoys New York's early season fishery. I am not a scientist nor will I try to argue your statement about the YOY sizes... that may be true, I can't say but I do know how to read a regulations book and make sure that everything is well within the rules.

 

I hope you enjoy the rest of the season and maybe we can get a chance to meet at one of the shows in the winter and chat.

 

Best regards

 

JP

 

JPD,I knew you were gonna take this personally which there is no reason but allow me to teach you

Hopefully you will learn from my teachings

 

First I did not threaten you nor do I,But

I do provoke

 

allow me to correct you on my supposed frustration towards B1,..... I have none

I simply got involved and made evident the public and QMNR deception and deceitfulness that the Newly formed and In-experienced event organizer ( he has been bass fishing circuits for less than 5 years and now he's a pro and an event organizer,his experience is events in street car events nothing more) utilized to get political leverage to have a pre season out of season practice period.

Although the decision was upheld at the lower level,The Minister of resource never signed the Public Legal ordinance which basically made the pre season practice period illegal!

Because of their actions regulation changes are to follow

I noticed he was going down the same road again for 2010,I doubt his tactics will fly once again

Rest assured I will insure that it does not occur

Once again its nothing personal but his actions demonstrate what is wrong with society today,its all about oneself and instant gratification no matter what it takes

Do I think he could make a good event sure I do,but he continuously makes mistakes to advance his agenda for the select few,but then again he will come of age

 

As far as doing anything for the industry,I really cannot recall doing anything for the industry,I have always been a fisherman by trade and I am as good as my clients are.

I don't sell,don't really promote,the product I use is the product I work with,I don't get paid to use it,I use it cause it holds up to my rigors and I suppose that in itself sells.

In the niche of promoting there are far more of you's

 

Beyond the great big fish,most of all I pride myself on the education I am able to share in fish handling methods ,behavioral tendencies and participating in research studies for various species and standing up for the resource which none others does.

Yearly I posses 1 to 3 scientific permits for studies I participate in

In this niche there is only me ,well maybe Chronzy too(someone who is somewhat public and will to stand up for the resource publicly)

Like is said I really don't care what other think,simply because my cause is doing good in the interest of all not oneself

That is a rule of Karma

My involvement in various issues or studies or conservation practices benefits all in the interest of all ,especially future generations

 

I did not judge your ethics or morals I simply said you should reconsider or check them out

You put yourself out there ,so just like you can fish pre season bass

I decided I will teach you were your thinking is wrong,simply because I can

(Remember the thread was about special licenses and you posted a loop hole or doorway out that made it legal and ok)

 

Above morals and ethics its a responsibility issue,especially given the message you wish to give to your audience

I have nothing to prove but lots to teach

 

When the imaginary line in which the province you reside in, does not allow one to fish during such a period to protect pre spawn females due to concrete scientific studies that indicate that angled pre spawn females YOY show a lesser growth rate ,yet a state which is considered to be lax in its conservationist and preservationist regulations makes it legal,IT does not mean its Scientifically or biologically right.

 

The state of NY is known not to extend the same conservation and preservationist regulations for several species with its bordering provinces and states.

Did you know the sate of Ohio is reconsidering this period after coming to the same scientific conclusions

It becomes a responsibility issue above a ethical and morale issues

In your case,it becomes a message you are sending to your captive audience.

Whether you do a show or not on pre spawn bass fishing

 

I do agree feb and march may not cause an issue but one can fish pre spawn bass up until April or May in both Erie and lake Ontario

that in itself is the critical time frame that affect pre spawn female bass or nesting bass

 

FL NDR was solicited by a famed bass angler to have pre spawn bass season

They bent down to the plight within almost 2 decades they depleted and diminished the overall average size of once a genetically huge Florida strain bass

That its fact

I dont think the FL DNR would ever make such a decision again knowing what they know now

 

Luckily Texas and California introduced the same genetically huge Florida strain within each state and protect them

 

JPD within the last 20 or so years I have been around,I have seen em come and seen go from all walks in the fishing world, but rest assured as long as the big guy above us all,allows me.

There will always be me to protect the best interest of the resource amidst what others think of me.

Simply initially some dont get my message or my teaching but rest assured they all come around

Just like those that were around 20 years and are still around,its simply because their conduct and beliefs are very similar to mine

Just like them I realized that without a resource my prop wont be turning so I wont be earning

without the resource you wont have a show

It is your responsibility above all ethics and morals to act accordingly and consider the message you are sending as a public figure

 

I encourage you to talk with Dr Bruce Tufts,he may just share my very same views

 

I do agree its legal,it does not make biologically or scientifically right

 

Hopefully you will learn from the scientific info shared and our discussion

 

remember Karma

do good in the interest of all and not oneself and good will be upon you

 

be good and be well and good luck with the show

 

marc

[LeXXington]

With enough money anything is possible

[Terry]

TV show hosts are not allowed to fish in closed seasons, in sanctuaries, or for out-of-season fish just because they have a TV program. Period.

 

In the past Ontario has issued permits to some TV show hosts so they could shoot educational programming. However, the criteria for these permits are very specific. TV fishing shows are not normally considered 'educational programming' - especially when the show exists as a for-profit enterprise. Following the Henry and Italo fiasco of the early 90s, these permits are now almost impossible to get.

 

The truth of the matter is, if the TV show host knows how to fish, they don't need to shoot in sanctuaries or during closed seasons to begin with. I shot a pile of steelhead episodes with Bob Izumi for the Real Fishing Show over a span of about 12 years, and all were shot during regular open season. One segment was shot on private land (a farm I had access to), and the other 10 or 12 segments were shot on public stretches of well-known rivers anyone can go to. Of course, we could do that because Bob knows how to catch fish. I can't say that for every TV show host I've met.

 

I have held a couple of scientific collection permits over the years, and they are very specific as to where and when you can fish. They have nothing to do with filming a TV show.

 

but..... the owners of la reserve beauchene told me, bob did fish a lake there before the lake was open for bass for his fishing show

and that there was no use me going to the lake during bass season, as the fish move and are hard to find after they spawn and the season is open.. so he like many others have did it

[Guest gbfisher]

Some of them hunt out of season as well......... Can't see any scientific study happening there....

[craigdritchie]

but..... the owners of la reserve beauchene told me, bob did fish a lake there before the lake was open for bass for his fishing show

and that there was no use me going to the lake during bass season, as the fish move and are hard to find after they spawn and the season is open.. so he like many others have did it

I've fished Beauchene with Bob many times, and find that very, very difficult to believe.

[Terry]

it was some years ago, bob shot the show there, I went to beauchene wanting to get into some of the same bass and that is what the owner told me and others.

we were pissed about it at the time....and I see no reason for the owner to lie but of course he could

and I say again, strait up that that is indeed what he told me.......

 

you could ask Lonnie King, he was there (guiding I think) that year, he might know, or not...LOL

Edited October 14, 2009 by Terry

[solopaddler]

Some interesting comments..

 

Way back in the day I worked for a popular Canadian fishing show.

 

Did they have special privelages to fish out of season? No.

 

Did they fish out of season? Yes.

 

Did they enjoy privelages that your average person didn't? Of course.

 

One such example: They filmed a show deep in Algonquins interior. Anyone else it would've taken a full day of paddling/portaging to reach this lake..

 

Them? They gained permission from the park to drive in on atv's LOL! Actually even filmed the trip in as well.

[canadadude]

I know Italo gets permission to fish the maid of the mist docks and film down there, is he trespassing? NO, he gets permission from the ownership to do this. Lots of Steelhead shows are filmed on private lands and such but these fishers get permission to do so. I guess it's one of the " Perks" you get for having a succesfull T.V show

[craigdritchie]

Canadadude:

You don't need a TV fishing show to be able to fish on private land. Just drive around and knock on a few doors. If you're polite and reasonable, you might be surprised at the access you can get just by asking nicely. Even better, ask the landowner if you can repay their kindness by helping out with some work around the property. It might mean you give up a Saturday or two over the summer, but in return you get some prime water all to yourself. Sweet deal, I say.

 

Terry:

Not doubting that's what you may have been told - I'm just saying don't believe everything you hear. I've seen people lie through their teeth about stuff like that so many times I've lost count. I don't know why people feel the need to Bull like that .... I really don't get it at all. Whatever.

[JPD]

No problem Marc, I can't honestly say I will or won't ever agree with you on your points but they are yours and I have mine...

 

Regarding the threat... the following quote from your initial post reads as a threat to me.. not one that has me sweating by any means or worried that you are going to come to my house and lecture me... it just comes across that way and sometimes that's the problem with writing things on the net... they can be easily misinterpreted which I assume that was not the intent of your post...

 

I'd check my Fishing ethics and Morales out if I were you

JPD,nothing personal but be very careful where you go with this,I do have very good Knowledge of fish behavior and scientific information that wont be in your best interest.

I am one who's involvement makes corrections to overlooked abused regulations practices

 

As for taking this personally... well you somehow have taken it upon yourself to save me in an evangelistic type manner... I'm not a crack smoking abuser of the resource, lacking in the Karma department or searching for Jesus... I help people out whenever I can and was raised in a Catholic home and taught to treat others the way I would like to be treated, that's why I have run a successful business in the service industry for over 15 years and most importantly I'm just a guy who loves to fish who happens to enjoy the spring Smallmouth fishing that Lake Erie has to offer... the Devil incarnate I am not although some may disagree . I would certainly hope that I am not being singled out because of my show... if that's the case I would think that is a bit hypocritical since everyone else is free to abide by the laws of New York but I in good conscious should not.

 

Also the first line of your quote I placed above IS judging my ethics and morals... maybe it's the whole written thing once again...

 

I can fully appreciate the science behind the argument but there is a better way to get one's point across rather than trying to ram it down the persons throat with a spoon full of "I told you so!" I can be as stubborn as they come and as argumentative and God knows I love a good debate every so often but to be told that the only way I will survive in this industry is to follow your beliefs just happens to "Wow" me a bit... in case you're wondering where I gathered that from...

JPD within the last 20 or so years I have been around,I have seen em come and seen go from all walks in the fishing world, but rest assured as long as the big guy above us all,allows me.

There will always be me to protect the best interest of the resource amidst what others think of me.

Simply initially some dont get my message or my teaching but rest assured they all come around

Just like those that were around 20 years and are still around,its simply because their conduct and beliefs are very similar to mine

 

Thanks for the well wishes with the show and I promise I will try to behave although I can't guarantee anything !

 

Take care

 

JP

[Burning Babies]

Did you know that females that are angled before spawning,their YOY or yearlings shown a 25% less growth rate than YOY/Yearlings that are hatched from non angled female bass

 

They bent down to the plight within almost 2 decades they depleted and diminished the overall average size of once a genetically huge Florida strain bass

That its fact

 

Again, citation please? While the nesting period has been pretty clearly identified as a critical period for bass reproduction, I am not aware of any peer-reviewed scientific literature documenting the prespawn period as such.

[troutologist]

Without really looking into this I can tell you activation of the stress axis in fish (or any higher vertabrate) reallocates energy to deal with the stressor. This basically is taking potential resources away from reproductive related activities.

 

Now there are obviously a number of variables, time between angling and spawning seems to jump out to me, maybe bass can recover from this event in x days or maybe it has an effect.

 

I am curious to hear how the growth rate after the bass is hatched and begins to feed on its own is retarded. Assuming an effect on the female from a prespawn event I could understand eggs in poorer condition. Would the feeding thus growth rate of a YOY bass not be independant of a single life event in the mother, gaining more for her genetics and its personal feeding ecology?

 

Aside from the general stress stuff is purely speculation on my part.

[ehg]

I have had permits for scientic collection in the past that have allowed me to take over my limit and fish out of season these type of permits are issued on a regular basis for collecting scientific data. And while it may sound like fun getting to fish Shelter Valley Creek in early April for untouched steelhead it was.

After reading the above it seems that the MNR does give out special permits for fishing under the guise of 'education' or 'science'.

 

Some interesting comments..

 

Way back in the day I worked for a popular Canadian fishing show.

 

Did they have special privelages to fish out of season? No.

 

Did they fish out of season? Yes.

 

Did they enjoy privelages that your average person didn't? Of course.

 

One such example: They filmed a show deep in Algonquins interior. Anyone else it would've taken a full day of paddling/portaging to reach this lake..

 

Them? They gained permission from the park to drive in on atv's LOL! Actually even filmed the trip in as well.

So fishing shows are filmed while fishing out of season sometimes.

[solopaddler]

So fishing shows are filmed while fishing out of season sometimes.

 

It has been known to happen.

Has it happened since? Not likely.

Are all fishing personalities guilty of this? Not a chance.

[ehg]

It has been known to happen.

Has it happened since? Not likely.

Are all fishing personalities guilty of this? Not a chance.

From this thread it seems that fishing personalities are NOT allowed to fish out of season,

But SOMETIMES it has happened.

[vinnimon]

If I was to fish the gorge, what would be a reasonable offer in good faith? I probabaly cant afford dollar wise what a production can afford to shell out for a day.I get permission to fish on private lands all the time,but to fish enter onto a corporate land to fish well!And to get permission to fish there.Last time I asked I was told its a liability thing and we cant afford it or the greatest throw off ITS NOT MY DEPARTMENT,call the number in the book.

[Marc Thorpe]

Your Right JPD,never read more into words by email or message board than there are

They dont express the meaning of what wishes to place forth

 

Dude ,I dont walk on water nor separate the seven seas

When it comes to the resource and protecting it,its what I built my reputation off

It is our responsibility to propagate the better and protection of our resource in this environmentally thinking era

 

The crux of my message is really in your best interest,my interest is in you succeeding with your show

Given the thread ,you singled out yourself even though its your legal right

 

Like I said,I like to provoke but the essence of my provocation is to educate,sometimes I can convey in a wrong way

But wait,I once thoughts I was wrong ,then I realized I was only mistaken

I am just a fisherman by trade and through my works I try and educate as many as I can no matter who they are

Simply because "When I wake I stare the ennemy in the eye"

Someday I will share one of the greatest muskies stories ever told,its far beyond anyone imagination

Hopefully most will retain the education and involvement that I took part

 

Words cannot express my emotions nor my smile but they can lead to the thinking by one

That is my intent

 

You are correct we would have some good laughs talking about this together and you would see my humor

 

 

Have a wonderful day

I have a date with Big Evil

Remember Bad does not measure up to Evil

Thats why I fish for Big Evil

 

Be good

[bigfish1965]

If I was to fish the gorge, what would be a reasonable offer in good faith? I probabaly cant afford dollar wise what a production can afford to shell out for a day.I get permission to fish on private lands all the time,but to fish enter onto a corporate land to fish well!And to get permission to fish there.Last time I asked I was told its a liability thing and we cant afford it or the greatest throw off ITS NOT MY DEPARTMENT,call the number in the book.

 

People fish the gorge every day. It is not illegal.

[Harrison]

I have worked with a couple different shows and I can say we never fished out of season. If you are in the know, there is no need to. Unless, your consultants move on, then who knows

Edited October 15, 2009 by Harrison