So Canada has just put in 10.5 Billion in GM

[Dusky]

Yes he had a choice but he does not have the courage to go that route.

 

Your argument that they can pull other business, well they are already eliminating Canadian businesses by including “Buy American” clause in stimulus package. Also, if history teaches us anything, they don’t care about Canadian interest e.g. lumber war, rejection of Canadian beef and so on… so we as Canadian need to stand up to safe guard our own interest. Question is, is it our interest to bailout GM?

 

Secondly, if other auto manufactures go for bankruptcies down the road, are we going to bail them out as well? E.g. Honda has a very big operation in Canada, if they go bankrupt and Japanese government decide to bail them out, are we going to chip in our share there as well just because of the fear that other Japanese companies can pull their operation out from Canada?

 

In capitalist economy businesses work to make money. If they are not making money, they simply vanish, GM is not going to be the first one. As long as it’s viable for Coca Cola or any other company per say to do manufacturing in Canada, no government can make them move their operations.

 

I think right now he is doing all it takes to please Obama administration, as conservative started with him on a bad note during the US democratic primaries where they leak some conversation to please Hilary. Now conservative government and Canadian taxpayers are paying the price for stupid move conservatives made not so long ago.

[bbog]

Did he have a choice? Yes

Did he follow voter sentiment? No

Would the US start a war if we turned off the oil tap? ABSOLUTELY!!

 

The second GM US has any future difficulty you can bet the pain will be experienced in Canada. The dumbest thing you can do is pump money into an entity outside of your control or jurisdiction. Kiss your money goodbye and all the good things it could have done if our Government had a backbone.

[Jonny]

Like Bushart said above, a LOT more depends on GM Canada's survival than just the plant workers.

 

Did Harper have a choice? No.

 

Did he do the right thing? In the circumstances, yes.

 

Hell, the Liberals have forced us to waste (so far) about $2 BN on a useless gun registry. Where did that get us? This at least is money that should have some tangible result. And it's a "loan" (granted not likely to be re-paid) but we now will OWN about 12% of GM. Assuming that the company changes course and survives (and I think it will... there are already steps committed to), and now that it's out from under the crushing burden of high labour and benefit costs, we'll be owning an asset that's worth something.

 

We can't sit around while viable companies pull out of the country (and GM is still viable, to think otherwise is probably kidding yourself), and hope that Frank Stronach's Magna dreams come true. Did you know that the Opel deal isn't even final? The German gov't says they're still open to a better offer until September, and Italy's Berlusconi has said he would support another Fiat bid for Opel.

 

I feel for Sudbury nickel workers. I was one once myself, and my father spent most of his adult life working for INCO. We need to pull out of this world-wide recession before the demand for nickel will go back up. In the meantime it would be a good idea to keep companies in Canada that use nickel.

[ch312]

whats not to like about this? you mean you guys dont love the thought that your hard earned money that is stolen from our pay checks is paying for some retired union worker to go on vacations?

 

i hate the idiots running this country into the ground and they should be replaced by those who are in touch with reality.

[Jonny]

i hate the idiots running this country into the ground and they should be replaced by those who are in touch with reality.

 

You've got the Liberals and the NDP to choose from. That's going to make you feel better?

[solopaddler]

You've got the Liberals and the NDP to choose from. That's going to make you feel better?

 

Perhaps it's time for a Mennonite party? Ahhh....a return to simpler times.

 

[Burtess]

Perhaps it's time for a Mennonite party? Ahhh....a return to simpler times.

 

 

LMAO

[Jonny]

Aha, trying to sneak a zinger in there!

 

We'd have to call it the Libertarian Party...

 

... since they believe that gov't should leave people alone.

 

Bail out GM? Only if they started producing (er, breeding) new-model GMC's... Galloping Mennonite Critters.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Jocko Point Jonny

[shoemaker]

Whats done is done. I believe market forces will always prevail. My question is does this bailout potentially turn off many buyers because it is viewed as being unfair to the taxpayers and to other struggling/failed industries? I'll buy a Ford or an import before considering a GM or Chrysler. In the long run, consumers will determine if GM/Chryler dies or survives and not the government.

[holdfast]

Again Harpo had no choice in the matter. This is Totally Political to Throw a Stimulus Package into GM. Political suicide if he didn't. You got the two Leaches waiting and crying more money into their Ridings or , lets say Southern Ontario. Its all Politics that this money is going into GM or any other Car manufacturer. Remember when there was a problem with the Cattle Industry. That is big Business out West and affected a lot more than employment. It affected the Livelihood of Hard working Westerner Canadians who cattled for Generations. If you compare the two, the Stimulus package should of went to the Cattlemen. But NO, who cares, It wasn't political suicide or Ontario/Quebec.

Edited June 4, 2009 by holdfast

[Fishnwire]

I find it a little odd that some people have zero sympathy for people on pension. These people were promised a certain pension after a certain amount of service. They fulfilled their part of the deal...you want to see them screwed now? That guy who mentioned pensioners "being on vacation" is talking total nonsense. They're retired. What does vacation have to do with being pensioned off? I can only assume whoever said that has less than 5 years service with whoever he works for now. Maybe I'm wrong. If so, I apolagize in advance.

 

You put in 25 or 30 years loyal service (to a company that made buckets of money for 28 of those years) with certain promises made to you, see them evaporate and we'll see how quick you change your tune.

 

I'm really sorry to whom I possibly offend, but I can't help but think that begrudging retiries is a little shameful. I'm only in my 30's but I'd hate like heck to see the plans I have for my retirement go to crap...and I'd also hate to see someone else jammed up that way.

[Jonny]

There seems to be this predisposition for some people to think that somebody who worked for good wages and benefits thanks to a strong union doesn't deserve what they got. It's not like they didn't work - they put in their time and they were productive, day after day, week after week, year after year. They didn't get what they got for nothing... and don't forget, they contributed a lot of their own earnings too.

 

I'm retired, but for the 32 years of my career, I contributed roughly 10% of my salary every year.

 

I've seen people lose chunks of a pension they were counting on, and it's not pretty, not before they retire and especially not after. If they fulfilled the conditions for getting it, they shouldn't be deprived of it.

[cambo]

This is a hard one, at first i was feeling give them nothing they did this to themselves. Having a lot of family live in Windsor my mind is changing as my father hasn't worked in four months (Car hauler),my brother has been laid off twice in one year and is currently out of work(X-Ray engine blocks) my best friends wife was laid off last year (auto worker) and wifes two uncles have been laid off(auto workers) thats a lot of people in my family

[Stoty]

Ya...well...I've been laid off twice in 4 months and dont have work.... and I have 2 degrees!

Where's my bailout money?

[Chris]

How does that answer my Question.

 

I'll answer your question Rob. No Harper has no say....he has no say in anything. It's only made to appear like he has a say. He is merely a puppet just like all the other puppets. He'll be gone when we vote him out and then we'll vote in a new puppet to lay all the blame on, all the while feeling proud that we made a difference.....meanwhile big business will still be here dictating what goes on. IMHO Canadians should give the middle finger to GM and drive the final nail in the coffin. They just ripped us off for a million dollars 10,500 times.

 

Please don't ask me to feel sorry for auto workers. Their union leaders pushed for wages that were substantially higher than the status quo for assembly line workers and the workers bought into it thinking that GM's coffers were a bottomless pit of cash. They backed their union and made their own bed for themselves. When will people understand that the pot isn't endless just because you have a strong union?

 

Why not let them fold and let the viable auto makers enjoy picking up the slack. What's wrong with that? Isn't that how the capitalism that these big businesses subscribe to works?? I guess they only want to play that game when it works in their favour.

 

This whole thing is just another govt. backed smokescreen with plenty of mirrors to scam the taxpayer out of more of their money. Things like this have been going on for years......ever notice how every 7 to 10 years or so the gov't and big business "creates" a recession to beat us back down. They let us get ahead, get ahead, get ahead, and then bam....recession....let's peel back some of the equity that taxpayers have been creating for themselves. I've been watching it go on for the past 35 years. Anybody that thinks this is wise use of our taxpayer's dollars is part of the problem. These big businesses know that some Canadians will be gullible enough to believe this is all in their best interests and throw their support behind this Bull.

 

End of Rant

[Headhunter]

Stoty, your bailout money is sitting on a trailer on your driveway.

HH

[holdfast]

I'll answer your question Rob. No Harper has no say....he has no say in anything. It's only made to appear like he has a say. He is merely a puppet just like all the other puppets. He'll be gone when we vote him out and then we'll vote in a new puppet to lay all the blame on, all the while feeling proud that we made a difference.....meanwhile big business will still be here dictating what goes on. IMHO Canadians should give the middle finger to GM and drive the final nail in the coffin. They just ripped us off for a million dollars 10,500 times.

 

Please don't ask me to feel sorry for auto workers. Their union leaders pushed for wages that were substantially higher than the status quo for assembly line workers and the workers bought into it thinking that GM's coffers were a bottomless pit of cash. They backed their union and made their own bed for themselves. When will people understand that the pot isn't endless just because you have a strong union?

 

Why not let them fold and let the viable auto makers enjoy picking up the slack. What's wrong with that? Isn't that how the capitalism that these big businesses subscribe to works?? I guess they only want to play that game when it works in their favour.

 

This whole thing is just another govt. backed smokescreen with plenty of mirrors to scam the taxpayer out of more of their money. Things like this have been going on for years......ever notice how every 7 to 10 years or so the gov't and big business "creates" a recession to beat us back down. They let us get ahead, get ahead, get ahead, and then bam....recession....let's peel back some of the equity that taxpayers have been creating for themselves. I've been watching it go on for the past 35 years. Anybody that thinks this is wise use of our taxpayer's dollars is part of the problem. These big businesses know that some Canadians will be gullible enough to believe this is all in their best interests and throw their support behind this Bull.

 

End of Rant

 

That is why I think that they should cut Taxes and give us that money to Spend on the Economy. More Pocket money, more chance you may spend it on Clothes, TVs, maybe even a car. (by the way, people have stopped buying cars that the Car Companies keep pushing out). lets see, Ill take my money back from, Unemployment( Parts of it) Insurance I payed 25 years for in the Military but was not allowed to Draw from it, The Arts, Immigration( Parts of it), CBC, Equalization/Health Care to a Province that does not want to stay in Canada or be a part of, Salaries to a Party that sits in Parliament for no re3ason but to Separate and only work on behalf of their Province, oh and Stimulus Packages, especially for certain Companies in Certain Provinces.

Edited June 4, 2009 by holdfast

[cambo]

Ya...well...I've been laid off twice in 4 months and dont have work.... and I have 2 degrees!

Where's my bailout money?

My brother also has two degrees, electrical engineering and mechanical engineering, he won't see a dime of this money his plant shut right down, I really don't see your point here Many jobs down the line are affected such as car haulers for an example that don't work for the big car compainies ,they won't see any of that money either but if they can get up and running it will help a lot of the other jobs that people are losing.Again, I'm kind of a fence sitter here,i realize that the miners and forestry workers butcher shops etc didn't get a bail out but i know for sure that the more car companies around the more competative they are and that makes car prices cheaper

Sorry your laid off, I don't like to see anyone out of work

[Stoty]

My brother also has two degrees, electrical engineering and mechanical engineering, he won't see a dime of this money his plant shut right down, I really don't see your point here

 

You dont see my point??

 

Why is GM so special? They are no better than anyone else.

They dont deserve special treatment, and it ticks me off to see them getting it.

They've been spoiled for a very long time now, so suck it up.

It's their own fault they are in the situation, so why the heck should WE pay for their mistakes??!?!

 

 

Stoty, your bailout money is sitting on a trailer on your driveway.

 

HAHA!

[Fishnwire]

Please don't ask me to feel sorry for auto workers. Their union leaders pushed for wages that were substantially higher than the status quo for assembly line workers and the workers bought into it thinking that GM's coffers were a bottomless pit of cash. They backed their union and made their own bed for themselves. When will people understand that the pot isn't endless just because you have a strong union?

 

I guess you've never belonged to a union. If you had, you'd realize that the average union member has about as much power in what decisions their leaders make as you and I do in what decisions Harper makes. It's entirely impossible for a rank and file union member to make any change to union policy without an overwhelming majority of support from the rest of the workers. Expecting the membership to ask for and vote in lower wages is like asking the Canadian people to ask for higher taxes. Do you actually think that it's Joe Lunchbox's fault because he never decided on his own that the money he and his neighbours were paid (from one of the world's biggest and most profitable corporations) was too generous? Is that normally how human nature works? I bet most of us feel that we deserve every penny we earn, some of us may even have days when we think we're underpaid. I read somwhere that upper level CEOs can expect to be compensated at a rate of around 1000 times what the average production worker earns...and they're the ones who were at the helm when the company ran aground. One of those plants they shut down won awards year after year for producing the best quality vehicles, so we know the production workers were doing their jobs extremely well. After you're done blaming Canadian workers for the the state of the economy, let's blame Canadian soldiers for the how bad it is in Afghanistan.

 

Why not let them fold and let the viable auto makers enjoy picking up the slack. What's wrong with that? Isn't that how the capitalism that these big businesses subscribe to works?? I guess they only want to play that game when it works in their favour.

 

On this point, I could not agree with you more. Big business is forever lamenting that the government constrains the free market. They claim to want smaller, "hands-off" government. To be able to operate without all those pesky hang-ups, like minimum wage, environmental controls, health and safety regulations, etc, etc. But hold on! They'll take the tax breaks, the subsidies, the governmental assistance and "stimulus" packages. They didn't hesitate to run to mommy when they screwed up royally. And the real kick in the pants is this; Every one of these guys is still living in a mansion and driving a Bentley.

[Jonny]

Well put, Fishnwire.

 

---

 

One thing for everyone to keep in mind is that industrial jobs are hard to come by, and there's a multiplier effect... every industrial job spins off many jobs in other industries and in the service sector. So you're not talking, say, 10K jobs at GM, you're talking a whole lot more (i.e. like those car haulers mentioned above). The impact of losing whole factories (for good!) would be devastating in the short term and hard to overcome in the long term.

 

I wouldn't expect Frank Stronach to come riding to the rescue just yet by buying moth-balled factories.

[Troit]

1st there are thouseands of people out of work, im sure if GM even went beyound the wages

and went as low as 12$ a hr, nobody would be complaining about it, besides employes themselves,

im sure lots of money would be saved and GM wouldnt be sqaucking about losing money....

 

Get this over with and ill hand in my resume

[misfish]

On a positive note,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

 

WERE BACK TO 5 DAYS AND RUNNING AT 90% CAPACITY.

 

 

That move by Volkswagon to North America and Crysler getting back on line sooner then many thought,has just put us back on track again.

 

As for GM,we made a part for the Hummer,but just one.LOL

Edited June 4, 2009 by misfish

[Chris]

If you had, you'd realize that the average union member has about as much power in what decisions their leaders make as you and I do in what decisions Harper makes. It's entirely impossible for a rank and file union member to make any change to union policy without an overwhelming majority of support from the rest of the workers.

 

Do the members not vote in their executive? Doesn't each member have a vote at strike time?

 

Expecting the membership to ask for and vote in lower wages is like asking the Canadian people to ask for higher taxes.

 

I don't think anybody disagrees that auto workers have one helluva nice compensation package compared to other manufacturing jobs. Maybe they wouldn't be asked to give up so much if they hadn't been so greedy in the first place. They are assembly line workers, not lawyers.

 

(from one of the world's biggest and most profitable corporations)

 

If it's one of the world's biggest and most profitable corporations then why are we even having this conversation?

 

After you're done blaming Canadian workers for the the state of the economy, let's blame Canadian soldiers for the how bad it is in Afghanistan.

 

Please don't put words in other people's mouths.

[POLLIWOGG]

A couple million would have kept the local hospital open ......sigh....