General repair practices 150. NF

[Bernie]

This is the second time seeing this problem this winter. Both vehicles are relatively new and are maintained.

BUT, there is a problem. Why is this happening? The one that came in yesterday had no oil pressure. The oil plug was removed and NOTHING came out. Why? Look at this. The screwdriver was necessary to get it running out.

 

 

This was 20 minutes later applying heat with a hair dryer to the oil pan. Still slow coming out.

 

 

Ice caused the problem but where did it come from? Short trips did it. Drive a block to work, drive a block home for lunch and back to work after then again home for the day. Repeat 5 times a week and this is what happens. Condensation forms because the engine is never hot enough to evaporate the moisture from the crankcase.

I spun the oil filter off and never spilled a drop. It was frozen. The picture shows it slightly thawed.

 

 

A shot of some of the oil in the drain pan. Yuuuk. You can see the ice in the corner yet.

 

 

 

So what to do to solve the problem? Ya, I know, walk to work, it's only a block. But one fellow isn't able to walk too well and needs a ride.

The other guy is about 3 blocks fom work and sometimes needs his vehicle at work as well as at home.

I suggested to use the block heater to raise the temperature of the engine a little before they go. Also said to get someone to take it for a good drive at least once a week.

But this is also a lesson for those that look at a piece of equipment for sale and say "wow that is in real nice condition", I'm gonna buy that.

Buyer beware. I would recommend getting major purchases checked by a pro. Not your well meaning buddy.

 

Both of these vehicles engines have run out of oil and have been partially lubricated by water (this is bad). One of the engines rod bearings developed a bad clunking noise and we patched it by polishing the crank journal and installing a new bearing. The crankshaft was slightly scored and the customer was informed that it may or may not last. Modern engines are not as easy to overhaul without major expense. Often is less expensive to purchase a rebuilt than it is to rebuild in the shop. Usually come with a better warranty too.

[misfish]

I noticed that on my oil cap Bernie. I always let the truck warm up 10-15 minutes before taking off. Im a ten minute drive from work. I also do an oil change every 5K.

 

Thanks for the thread.

[walleyejigger]

Wow, never would have thought, thanks for the info

[Guest skeeter99]

what your problem is called is oil emulsification

 

 

it happens alot on the dodge 4.7 engine (dakotas/durangos/Rams) this is what the myth sludge problem was

 

it would build under the oil fill cap since it was mounted about 6 inches higher than the engine and would be alot cooler hence condensation

 

basically just water mixxing with the oil and not getting burned off, it happens with all makes and models when the engine warms enough the PCV valve (positive carnkcase ventilation) sucks the moiture out of the engine and back in the intake

 

but honestly that is a little extreme? never seen it that bad?

[Bernie]

Extra marks for Skeeter.

Most vehicles in colder temperatures will have a little H2o in the upper parts of the engine. Water is formed from the byproduct of combustion and accumulates in the crankcase.

These are very extreme cases yes and we may see more of this in the future is my estimation.

[DRIFTER_016]

I noticed that on my oil cap Bernie. I always let the truck warm up 10-15 minutes before taking off. Im a ten minute drive from work. I also do an oil change every 5K.

 

Thanks for the thread.

 

Yup, me too. I only use full synthetic oil and premium filters as well. Plus when it's colder than -20 I plug in the block heater and battery warmer.

 

Bernie, what you have ther is a vehicle that has had no regular maintenance.

If they ever checked their oil they would know there was an issue.

[forrest]

I knew short trips were bad but that new to me.

 

So my wife drives 10 minutes to work and we are about 10 minutes from everywhere.

 

Aside from letting it idle for 10 minutes in the driveway EVERYDAY what is the alternative? Yes, yes...I cold check the oil

 

(it was said some cars are bad for this so my vehicle is a 2000 honda civic)

 

 

forrest

Edited January 16, 2009 by forrest

[irishfield]

You sure that wasn't dunked in Nip first Bud? lol

 

What ever happened to a good 'ol breather on the rocker alla '69 dodge etc...

[Bernie]

Drifter. The oil was changed Oct 31st 2008 and only 600 km on it.

And synthetic oil would make no difference to the amount of water.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Bernie

[DRIFTER_016]

Drifter. The oil was changed Oct 31st 2008 and only 600 km on it.

And synthetic oil would make no difference to the amount of water.

 

 

If it was changed only 600km ago and looks like that, there are other issues with that engine.

That is unless the owner ran the engine for 2 min. then let it cool, run for 2 min and let cool 10,000 times in 3 months.

You are right about synthetic and amount of water, however the synthetic is a more robust oil that will protect your engine better than conventional oil in extreme situations. I think that case is pretty extreme.

[2 tone z71]

ahhh man thats bad bad news ,I wonder what my oil looked like this morning,ive never heard an engine make those types of noises before after trying to start then finally starting,good post Bernie interesting read

[Bernie]

If it was changed only 600km ago and looks like that, there are other issues with that engine.

That is unless the owner ran the engine for 2 min. then let it cool, run for 2 min and let cool 10,000 times in 3 months.

You are right about synthetic and amount of water, however the synthetic is a more robust oil that will protect your engine better than conventional oil in extreme situations. I think that case is pretty extreme.

 

I f you read the opening statement you will find there are two of my customers with a similar situation. Yes they are run for only minutes. It takes an average engine about 15 minutes to come up to operating temperature in average driving from startup depending on temperature. It can take over a half an hour at idle. Engines need to get warm to evaporate moisture inside the engine. Both of these vehicles are the same domestic make but different engines and a model year difference. I believe there is a design flaw not allowing adequate ventalation in short trips, but according to the manufacturer there are no bulletins to address the issue. I am on good terms with a local dealer with whom I do much business with. We have discussed this problem without solution. I have probably over a hundred customers with the same type vehicles with no issues.

The thermostats are opening at the correct temperature and pcv systems are clean and clear. Both have less than 90,000km on them.

If this manufacturer had not discontinued their cold weather testing grounds in Northern Ontario this problem may have never surfaced.

Also what comes to my mind here is a more fuel efficent engine creating more H2o? It is a point to ponder.

[douG]

I agree with Wayne and Skeeter, that's a lot of water and not just condensation.

[sonny]

I am a mechanic first of all,,,this is not a condensation problem!,,You have other issues that need to be addressed,,oil is mixing with your antifreeze and you need to find out where from,,most prob cause is either a head gasket or intake gasket,,,if you continue to drive like this you will need an engine if you don't need one already!

[Bernie]

Sonny. It isnt anti freeze. It's water. Take my word for it.

Did you see the ice coming out? Antifreeze does not freeze.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Bernie

[Guest skeeter99]

I was leaning toward antifreeze mixing with the oil but you can see ice in the oil which would indicate water?

 

 

but that colour brown is definatley the colour of antifreeze mixing with the oil

 

and I do know first hand from blowing the head gaskets on the dodge 2.2 and 2.5 engines have done 3 of them myself along with a piston on a 2.5 turbo daytona i had years ago

 

or this could be really stupid, are you filling up the engine coolant with water in the past rather than antifreeze, it could be a head gasket leaking your antinfreeze (which is water) or a weak antifreeze (diluted) which is why the oil is brown with ice in it?

 

 

like I said that is way to much condensation in the oil I think there is a bigger problem

[irishfield]

Sonny. It isnt anti freeze. It's water. Take my word for it.

Did you see the ice coming out? Antifreeze does not freeze.

 

Not to support either arguement Bernie... BUT... the glycol will burn off in the engine and the water will be left behind... if it is a coolant leak somewhere. I know Glycol is VERY flameable as I lost an uncle to it's fumes exploding in a 45 gallon drum.

Edited January 16, 2009 by irishfield

[Bernie]

I agree with Wayne and Skeeter, that's a lot of water and not just condensation.

 

Doug. Humour me here. It is water. It is condensation or a byproduct of combustion. A very severe case. Both customers have identical driving habits. None of my other customers have this issue. I don't know of any others that have the same driving habits. There are no other reasons for water to be in there.

[Guest skeeter99]

Quote"If this manufacturer had not discontinued their cold weather testing grounds in Northern Ontario this problem may have never surfaced Quote"

 

 

so it is a GM vehicle, I heard from a freind in kapuskasing that the GM cold weather testing was shutting down

 

I wonder if Toyota will shut down theirs in Timmins?

[Bernie]

Not to support either arguement Bernie... BUT... the glycol will burn off in the engine and the water will be left behind... if it is a coolant leak somewhere. I know Glycol is VERY flameable as I lost an uncle to it's fumes exploding in a 45 gallon drum.

 

There is no coolant loss in either vehicle. Pressure tests were done to verify and no fluid top ups have been necessary.

[gdelongchamp]

You have water mixed in with your oil. You probably have a cracked block.

[Bernie]

Guys...I'm not a fly by night mechanic here. I know my stuff. Been at it all my life.

Why just two vehicles that are driven the same way have the same issue? It's water.

[Grimace]

Interesting stuff Bernie.

[irishfield]

Well if the coolant system is full, never topped and pressure checked... it can't be anything else Bernie!

 

...unless they ticked off their neighbour and he poured a gallon of water in their oil fill hole.. lol

Edited January 16, 2009 by irishfield

[danc]

Bernie is right here guys. I had the same issues with an 81 Ford that I drove about 3 minutes to work. There is no anti freeze mixing with oil here. Simply water with oil because of condensation. Happened every winter. Went away every spring.