The body of evidence just builds and builds for global warming

[cram]

No I am not and no I didn't. The argument was made that we created an enviroment that is making us sick and that only by spending massive amounts on healthcare are we over coming this. What I said was we created an enviroment that has resulted in an increased lifespan. That enviroment includes good health care.

 

I actually don't know if a lot of people get sick from emissions (do they?)

[hammercarp]

you're arguing semantics. everyone on this board (including you i hope) understood what he meant.

 

Ya that was a little thin. But people do need to understand the the arctic is one giant mass of floating ice. How many people bought the myth that if the artic melted we all drown due to the rise in sea level?

[JohnF]

Read "State Of Fear" by Michael Crichton. It's fiction so not exactly gospel, but he cites a lot of interesting references to debunk the global warming fears. Of course, there are folks who dispute his cites but they are as far as I know all real and factual. They may be used somewhat out of context for effect but are nonetheless interesting and thought provoking.

 

JF

[hammercarp]

I actually don't know if a lot of people get sick from emissions (do they?)

 

These were the statements made by others.

the human induced factors through emissions alone of which there is no denying also are a very major contributor to negative health effects on all animals including humans.

 

Medicine, vaccine? health care, doctors, hospitals, all the gazillion dollars that goes into health science & medical research

 

You're taking my arguments as a personal attack on all your statements. I hate to disapoint you but I was also argueing on others statements. They are part of the discussion too.

[oncogene]

The real reasons we live longer are:

better overall nutrition

we have taylored the enviroment to suit us better ( that is in cities anyway )

the reduction in the number and severity of plagues, pandemics and the like.

 

Are you saying that good healthcare in somehow enherently wrong?

 

I agree with the comment you'r arguing against yourself

 

Your quote: "Secondly if we are suffering negative health effects, how is it that our lifespans have increased over the last hundred years?

Don't get me wrong I know the climate is changing. It's that blanket statements like yours do beg for some questions. "

 

 

No I am not and no I didn't. The argument was made that we created an enviroment that is making us sick and that only by spending massive amounts on healthcare are we over coming this. What I said was we created an enviroment that has resulted in an increased lifespan. That enviroment includes good health care.

 

Last time I checked... an increase in global temperature (whether you think it's caused by human or not), or change in climate (colder, warmer, wetter, dryer) doesn't kill us. And even air pollution does NOT kill people, not in an acute way... it's a slow, very slow process. In fact for the most part air pollution itself does not kill anyone... it just makes ppl more susceptible to diseases, getting sick easier etc. On the other hands, all the modern medicine, antibiotics, vaccines, diagnostic equipments are leaps and bounces from a hundred years ago, there is no comparison at all.

 

And if you want to argue over semantics, I wouldn't mix in environment with health care as 1 giant thing. If I throw you in a poisoned air chamber, while giving you an antidote on site... is your overall environment (your definition) still good? You'll still be alive right? ....I think not.

[hammercarp]

I agree with the comment you'r arguing against yourself

 

Your quote: "Secondly if we are suffering negative health effects, how is it that our lifespans have increased over the last hundred years?

Don't get me wrong I know the climate is changing. It's that blanket statements like yours do beg for some questions. "

Last time I checked... an increase in global temperature (whether you think it's caused by human or not), or change in climate (colder, warmer, wetter, dryer) doesn't kill us. And even air pollution does NOT kill people, not in an acute way... it's a slow, very slow process. In fact for the most part air pollution itself does not kill anyone... it just makes ppl more susceptible to diseases, getting sick easier etc. On the other hands, all the modern medicine, antibiotics, vaccines, diagnostic equipments are leaps and bounces from a hundred years ago, there is no comparison at all.

 

And if you want to argue over semantics, I wouldn't mix in environment with health care as 1 giant thing. If I throw you in a poisoned air chamber, while giving you an antidote on site... is your overall environment (your definition) still good? You'll still be alive right? ....I think not.

 

Were are not just being alive. We live longer, healthier and more productive lives than at any time in our history. The reason for this and I'll say it again is that we created an enviroment that is condusive to that. There is no denying this.

Could we achieve the heights of physical prowess as demonstrated in the last olympics if we came from an enviroment that is doing what has been eluded to in this post? If someone were in that poison air chamber and given an antidote ( whatever that means). Could they break the world record at the 100 m dash? I don't think so.

[ozaibak1]

who?

 

For starters... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scien..._global_warming

[oncogene]

Were are not just being alive. We live longer, healthier and more productive lives than at any time in our history. The reason for this and I'll say it again is that we created an enviroment that is condusive to that. There is no denying this.

Could we achieve the heights of physical prowess as demonstrated in the last olympics if we came from an enviroment that is doing what has been eluded to in this post?

 

Funny you mention Olympics. Haven't you read and heard of all the initial concerns about the air pollution in Beijing that would affect the athletics performance, and all the drastic measures the Chinese government did in order to clean up the environment?

 

You cant' just forcefully includes everything (natural environment, pollution, medicine, living standard) as one giant big factor (that you termed as environment)... then said coz we live better overall now, so everything you just include in this one giant factor must all contribute positively. Yes, we can indeed have worse air quality, worse climate, and still have a overall better live.

Edited September 4, 2008 by oncogene

[cram]

For starters... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scien..._global_warming

 

That's actually interesting stuff. Thanks.

 

You might also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_op..._climate_change

Its pretty overwhelming. A summary of opinions from the following...

# 1 Statements by concurring organizations

 

* 1.1 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) 2007

* 1.2 InterAcademy Council

* 1.3 Joint science academies' statement 2008

* 1.4 Joint science academies’ statement 2007

* 1.5 Joint science academies’ statement 2005

* 1.6 Joint science academies’ statement 2001

* 1.7 International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences

* 1.8 European Academy of Sciences and Arts

* 1.9 Network of African Science Academies

* 1.10 National Research Council (US)

* 1.11 European Science Foundation

* 1.12 American Association for the Advancement of Science

* 1.13 Federation of American Scientists

* 1.14 World Meteorological Organization

* 1.15 American Meteorological Society

* 1.16 Royal Meteorological Society (UK)

* 1.17 Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society

* 1.18 Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society

* 1.19 Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences

* 1.20 International Union for Quaternary Research

* 1.21 American Quaternary Association

* 1.22 Stratigraphy Commission of the Geological Society of London

* 1.23 International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics

* 1.24 International Union of Geological Sciences

* 1.25 European Geosciences Union

* 1.26 Canadian Federation of Earth Sciences

* 1.27 Geological Society of America

* 1.28 American Geophysical Union

* 1.29 American Astronomical Society

* 1.30 American Institute of Physics

* 1.31 American Physical Society

* 1.32 American Chemical Society

* 1.33 Engineers Australia (The Institution of Engineers Australia)

* 1.34 Federal Climate Change Science Program (US)

* 1.35 American Statistical Association

 

# 2 Noncommittal statements

 

* 2.1 American Association of State Climatologists

* 2.2 American Association of Petroleum Geologists

 

# 3 Statements by dissenting organizations

# 4 Scientific consensus

# 5 Surveys of scientists and scientific literature

 

* 5.1 Oreskes, 2004

* 5.2 Bray and von Storch, 2003

* 5.3 Survey of U.S. state climatologists 1997

* 5.4 Bray and von Storch, 1996

* 5.5 Other older surveys of scientists

[hammercarp]

Funny you mention Olympics. Haven't you read and heard of all the initial concerns about the air pollution in Beijing that would affect the athletics performance, and all the drastic measures the Chinese government did in order to clean up the environment?

 

Yes I did read the concerns about pollution at the Olympics. And your point is?

 

You cant' just forcefully includes everything (natural environment, pollution, medicine, living standard) as one giant big factor (that you termed as environment)... then said coz we live better overall now, so everything you just include in this one giant factor must all contribute positively. Yes, we can indeed have worse air quality, worse climate, and still have a overall better live.

 

Yes I can. That is the enviroment in which we live. You cannot sepate them . They are all factors making up our enviroment. It's the whole package.

As to the second statement. Worse than what. We have had worse air quality and worse climate for more of our past than we have now. We lived through an ice age and had to endure open fires in small cramped quarters in order to keep from freezing to death.

[oncogene]

For starters... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scien..._global_warming

It does say: "This article lists scientists and former scientists who have stated disagreement with one or more of the principal conclusions of the mainstream scientific opinion on global warming. It should not be interpreted as a list of global warming skeptics. Inclusion is based on specific criteria that do not necessarily reflect skepticism toward climate change caused by human activity, or that such change could be large enough to be harmful."

 

 

Yes I can. That is the enviroment in which we live. You cannot sepate them . They are all factors making up our enviroment. It's the whole package.

As to the second statement. Worse than what. We have had worse air quality and worse climate for more of our past than we have now. We lived through an ice age and had to endure open fires in small cramped quarters in order to keep from freezing to death.

 

yeahhhhh sureeee ok

Edited September 4, 2008 by oncogene

[danbo]

Let's just Argue for the H-e-l-l of it !

[StoneFly]

These were the statements made by others.

the human induced factors through emissions alone of which there is no denying also are a very major contributor to negative health effects on all animals including humans.

 

Medicine, vaccine? health care, doctors, hospitals, all the gazillion dollars that goes into health science & medical research

 

You're taking my arguments as a personal attack on all your statements. I hate to disapoint you but I was also argueing on others statements. They are part of the discussion too.

 

Actually Health Canada reported a few years back that poor air Quality results in as many, if not more health related issues as smoking in Canadians, mainly respiratory. thats just Canada and our Air Quality isnt all that bad compared to some countries. Did anyone watch the olympics? How can you even think that bad air quality doesnt affect anything that breathes in an adverse way? and dont ask me to produce the stats, I already read them, if you dont beleive it, look it up yourself. Check out Aesthma for one and look at the icrease in incidence over the past few decades and what it is attributed to. And whoever said poor air quality doesnt kill, air pollution episodes certainly can, its just that they effect the imuno compromised aesthmatics and the weak alot more than average healthy person, similiar to ummmm, Listeriosis, (except aesthma)...has anyone read that in the news lately?

Edited September 4, 2008 by StoneFly

[keram]

Ok, my shot at the topic.. Like always everybody has the right to an opinion and has their own recipe. So here is mine:

 

¼ lb of global warming

¼ lb of climate change

1/8 lb of pollutions

This are the main ingredients

Everything else is up to personal preference

I like

Couple sea currents

2-3 hurricanes ( depends on category )

1 tbs of El Ninho

2 Tbs of La Ninha ( I like it tender )

2-3 volcanic eruptions

1-2 earthquakes

1 tsunami

1 ice cap

1 baseball cap ( shredded)

5 days of air quality index higher then 6

2 tsp of inconvenient true

2 tsp of convenient true ( just to balance aftertaste of the above)

 

Mix it well ( like epoxy) and watch. Whatever is your opinion you will get proof ( then it is proven) of your point of view.

 

I did it and it worked pretty well, but one day I have the visitor telling me that this recipe is copyrighted and because I’ve missed one ingredient ( 3 lb of Bull) I have to pay penalty.

Preferably in weekly instalments ( it will be deducted from my paycheque)

Since then I’ve gave up on science and concentrated exclusively on fishing

[cram]

Ok, my shot at the topic.. Like always everybody has the right to an opinion and has their own recipe. So here is mine:

 

¼ lb of global warming

¼ lb of climate change

1/8 lb of pollutions

This are the main ingredients

Everything else is up to personal preference

I like

Couple sea currents

2-3 hurricanes ( depends on category )

1 tbs of El Ninho

2 Tbs of La Ninha ( I like it tender )

2-3 volcanic eruptions

1-2 earthquakes

1 tsunami

1 ice cap

1 baseball cap ( shredded)

5 days of air quality index higher then 6

2 tsp of inconvenient true

2 tsp of convenient true ( just to balance aftertaste of the above)

 

Mix it well ( like epoxy) and watch. Whatever is your opinion you will get proof ( then it is proven) of your point of view.

 

I did it and it worked pretty well, but one day I have the visitor telling me that this recipe is copyrighted and because I’ve missed one ingredient ( 3 lb of Bull) I have to pay penalty.

Preferably in weekly instalments ( it will be deducted from my paycheque)

Since then I’ve gave up on science and concentrated exclusively on fishing

 

hilarious. I love it

[oncogene]

You forget the 2 most important ingredients... 100lb of politics and 100tons of money.

 

It doesn't matter what the original issue is, once those 2 are injected into the mix, everything else is irrelevant.

[keram]

You forget the 2 most important ingredients... 100lb of politics and 100tons of money.

 

It doesn't matter what the original issue is, once those 2 are injected into the mix, everything else is irrelevant.

No, I did not forget. I did not use them on purpose. I could not find the originals ( all were counterfait)

Anyway, I was mixing in the bowl not in the swimming pool

[hammercarp]

yeahhhhh sureeee ok

 

Okay. How about this. "There are certain enviromental factors that contribute to health problems in some people." Air quality being one of them. Sound good to you?

[danbo]

I'm not always right..just Never wrong..

[solopaddler]

Can't believe I just read this entire thread. Oh well at least I got chips

[hammercarp]

Ok, my shot at the topic.. Like always everybody has the right to an opinion and has their own recipe. So here is mine:

 

¼ lb of global warming

¼ lb of climate change

1/8 lb of pollutions

This are the main ingredients

Everything else is up to personal preference

I like

Couple sea currents

2-3 hurricanes ( depends on category )

1 tbs of El Ninho

2 Tbs of La Ninha ( I like it tender )

2-3 volcanic eruptions

1-2 earthquakes

1 tsunami

1 ice cap

1 baseball cap ( shredded)

5 days of air quality index higher then 6

2 tsp of inconvenient true

2 tsp of convenient true ( just to balance aftertaste of the above)

 

Mix it well ( like epoxy) and watch. Whatever is your opinion you will get proof ( then it is proven) of your point of view.

 

I did it and it worked pretty well, but one day I have the visitor telling me that this recipe is copyrighted and because I’ve missed one ingredient ( 3 lb of Bull) I have to pay penalty.

Preferably in weekly instalments ( it will be deducted from my paycheque)

Since then I’ve gave up on science and concentrated exclusively on fishing

 

If I could add;

 

1 cup of media hysteria

1 dollup of bad science

2 handfuls of ground hemp fibre ( from some tree huggers clothes)

 

That should round out the flavour.

1

[keram]

I'm not always right..just Never wrong..

You have a future

[Rich]

If you're cryin' about global warming please turn off your computer right now, unplug all electronics and sell your vehicle.

 

Since nobody can feasibly do that these days, then I guess we'll just have to wait it out and see what happens with the global warming.

 

I agree factories, hydro facilities, etc. should not be polluting as much as they do, and things can be done to cut way down on pollution. These things should be done.

 

Do I believe if we don't, everyone will freeze or the world will explode? Nope. But I do believe it'll hurt the environment, the lakes where we all fish.

 

This is still a fishing site right?

[hammercarp]

Can't believe I just read this entire thread. Oh well at least I got chips

 

You didn't get cheesy poofs?

[holdfast]

-It's an event that hasn't happened in 125,000 years.

-The larger trends seem to fall in 100,000 year blocks.

-Three of the years with the greatest amount of ice melting has happened in the last 4 years.

-If more ice melts we will be getting way beyond the regular parameters of the larger cycle.

-If the whole Arctic ice cap melts, that would be an event that hasn't happened in 50 million years.

 

The above is not "malarkey" so stop with the ridicule. Scientists can demonstrate these facts. When we look at these particular facts it creates one piece of evidence in the global warming case. Now if ever greater melting on north pole stops or reverses itself, then one could say the polar cap melting does not go beyond the extremes in variation. If on the other hand we see more melting we are getting beyond the extreme ranges of natural occurances. If it all melts, well then whoooaaa...something that hasn't happened in 50 million years has occured and that can't be explained by natural variation or causes.

 

So lets drop the subject. Lets wait until next summer and see is this strong trend continues, stops, or reverses itself.

 

OK here it Goes. Don't preach to me on anything that effects you school children nowadays. Apparently your Hero Al Gore's movie seems to have infiltrated our schools and our gullible young including you without even an examination to the facts. As far as teachers go, most might be book smart but a lot don't have any common sense or knowledge outside their Environment or their personal views. I find the most stubborn people are Environmentalists as well as Teachers. Its too bad that everything that we older people have done has been wrong all these years. Everything from the environment, your health, your society, your country, even your upbringing. Its all been wrong hasn't it... Poor little Scuro. Ill say it again, if your so concerned,

 

YOU can stop driving, pay for an expensive hybrid if you have to

YOU can pay a carbon Tax,

YOU can go Neked because production of clothing causes Carbon

YOU can pay extra for food,

YOU can pay an environmental tax for purchases of TVs, Computers, Fridges etc.

YOU can pay extra for home heating,

YOU can pay extra at the pumps,

YOU can pay the increase in Transported goods,

YOU can pay for the Idiots that want to save the Polar bears,

YOU can vote for a weak Idiot that cant talk and looks like a 90 lb weakling that wants to punish the Wests economy of which is Natural Resources are now keeping this country above water because he is a loser out here.

 

In the mean time I'm not buying your crap and I'm hoping all this blows over because, since YOU have been sucked into this Crap, Ive been paying for it. Tell me this though since you have all the answers, since Ive been paying for all this crap, how come I still got to get rid of my TVs, Freezers and pay for it? How come Oil has gone down 30% but not a cent at the pumps, How do you explain adding another tax to Oil Companies, Home Heating, Mining, Diesel is not going to effect me, BUT CUT DOWN on the WORLDS CARBON EMISSIONS

 

Explain all that to me Sherlock!!!!! But I,ll tell ya what, thanks to sucks like you and a whole lot others, WE ARE GETTING RIPPED OFF. So preach somewhere else