Miller Out To Lunch....TO Banning Gun Ranges & Warehouses

[Raf]

I'd be willing to bet 95% of all gun crimes are done with guns that were never registered.

 

you are very close, heard on the radio this morning the number is 96% illegal, 4% registered (either stolen or offence commited by the registered owner)

 

its a lot easier to chase down the 4% and look good!

Edited May 28, 2008 by Raf

[Sinker]

ultimately, aren't laws supposed to be made to protect the innocent law abbiding,honest, hard working, taxpaying citizens.

 

I think a legal hangun owner fits that description as well. Don't you?

 

Get caught using a gun for a crime........your done.....no questions asked. Take your rights and throw them out the window as soon as your caught. That's the only way anything will change. IMO. handgun.....long gun....whats the difference? You get caught using a gun to commit a crime......you go to jail no questions asked. Buh bye.....enjoy your stay.

 

Sounds so easy doesn't it?

 

Sinker

[Clampet]

I think a legal hangun owner fits that description as well. Don't you?

 

Get caught using a gun for a crime........your done.....no questions asked.

 

So you get to keep yer handgun on you, and until you commit a crime or worse kill someone, it's ok?

I wouldn't trust to many people nowadays to have the capability to control their tempers and not shoot someone. The gun becomes an extension of their will.

There are a lot shootings in the "Entertainment District" in downtown Toronto, a lot of them are by club goers that were either expelled or refused entry. So this loser, fool, coward, goes back to his vehicle, and comes back with a handgun and shoots up the place to make himself feel good. He would'nt be able to do that if he ran the risk of getting caught and doing 10 years, would he?

 

Take your rights and throw them out the window as soon as your caught. That's the only way anything will change. IMO. handgun.....long gun....whats the difference?

 

A big difference. Once you saw off a shotgun, for example, you have now rendered it illegal, and subject to penalties incurred in a court of law. A long gun would be exempt.

 

You get caught using a gun to commit a crime......you go to jail no questions asked. Buh bye.....enjoy your stay.

 

Why wait till they perform an offense, remove the handgun, or make it too risky to be in the possession of one. Make it a severe crime to be in possession alone. That would make a huge difference.

 

Sounds so easy doesn't it?

 

It does now.

 

Sinker

[Sinker]

Its obvious you have no idea about what it takes to have a legal hand gun here in Ontario.....or Canada for that matter.

 

I'll leave it at that.

 

Sinker

[Nanook]

I'm not 100% sure , but , I think as the law stands now, its 1yr Jail for any crime where a gun is involed ????

So what happens? aslap on the wrist and/or Probation..........Yeah,,,,,,Right !!!!

[Clampet]

Its obvious you have no idea about what it takes to have a legal hand gun here in Ontario.....or Canada for that matter. I'll leave it at that. Sinker

 

Maybe, God forbid, you or someone you cared about, was the victim of a gun crime you would feel differently. Have you ever had someone stick a gun in your face? Must be a rush! And when they do, it's like they have all the power. A coward with a gun. You just want to grab him by the throat and squeeeeeeeeeze, but you can't cause............................................. he has a gun.

[Raf]

Have you ever had someone stick a gun in your face?

 

yes, it sucks. but i can almsot guarantee that gun was not registered and its origins are from outside this country.

 

i dont have the answer to the gun problem, but going after 4% instead of 96% makes no sense to me. (other than political posturing)

Edited May 28, 2008 by Raf

[Clampet]

I normally wouldn't give a hoot, but i am getting fed up at the seeing the gradual escallation of gun related incidents involving totally innocent people. Twice that I can recall, retired residents within the confines of their home, were subjected to bullets coming through either the windows or the walls! Imagine sitting down, enjoying a quiet evening with your family and the bullets are flying into your living room!

 

I guess the point I missed was that all the gun crimes are accomplished by guns that are not registered to legal owners, is this correct?

And that imposing a ten year sentence within city limits on anyone caught, should be ammended to those in possession of an unregistered firearm.

[Raf]

I guess the point I missed was that all the gun crimes are accomplished by guns that are not registered to legal owners, is this correct?

 

that is correct.

 

given our proximity and relatively 'free' border with our neighbour to the south who has a HUGE gun problem of their own, i don't really see an easy solution. honestly, if i really wanted a handgun, i'd have one within 24hrs, probably much less. it's not terrible difficult to obtain one and i'll betchya it's origins will be from outside canada.

 

you're right, it is out of hand. however, they are going after the wrong people in the name of good appearances.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Raf

[Sinker]

 

I guess the point I missed was that all the gun crimes are accomplished by guns that are not registered to legal owners, is this correct?

And that imposing a ten year sentence within city limits on anyone caught, should be ammended to those in possession of an unregistered firearm.

 

Bingo!! Well.....except the last part.......ANYONE caught using a gun...of any kind.....should be locked up....period. Registered/unregistered....legal/not legal......makes no difference. Get caught using a gun for ANY crime and you get locked up......no questions asked.

 

I'd love to see some facts pertaining to how many registered guns are used in gun crimes. And how many legal gun owners are in fact charged with firearms related charges, other than improper storage/safety issues. Until then, I'll stick to my point that legal gun owners are the last people who need to be punished for owning a gun.

 

Sinker

[Clampet]

Anyone remember Berhardt Goetz?

 

In the early afternoon of December 22, 1984, four black men — Barry Allen, 19; Troy Canty, 19; James Ramseur, 18; and Darrell Cabey, 19 — boarded a downtown No. 2 express train on a stated mission to steal money from video arcade machines in Manhattan.

 

Goetz entered the same subway car at the 14th Street station and sat down near the four young men, who were then located at his right. According to Goetz's statement to police, approximately ten seconds later Troy Canty asked him, "How are you?" Goetz responded "I'm fine". According to Goetz, the four men gave signals to each other, and shortly thereafter Canty and Barry Allen rose from their seats and went over to the left of Goetz, blocking Goetz off from the other passengers in the car. Canty then calmly said to Goetz, "Give me five dollars." According to the young men's testimony, Canty was panhandling, although eyewitness testimony given at Goetz's criminal trial generally agreed that the four men were aggressive and threatening. Goetz told police that he thought from the smile on Canty's face that they wanted to "play with me," and he decided on a "pattern of fire" that he would use to shoot them. Goetz, pretending not to hear them, asked Canty, "What did you say?" Canty calmly repeated, "Give me five dollars." Goetz admitted to police that he "snapped" and that his intention at that point was to "murder them, to hurt them, to make them suffer as much as possible." At the criminal trial, Goetz's defense attorneys, Barry Slotnick and Mark Baker, claimed that this and other extreme statements by Goetz were the product of an overactive imagination.

 

After the second demand or request for money, Goetz rose from his seat, and from beneath his blue windbreaker fast-drew a .38 Special five-shot Smith & Wesson revolver and fired five shots with speed shooting. (Speed shooting is a very fast technique, primarily effective at close range, where the shooter initiates trigger pull prior to the sights being aligned on the target.) In media interviews, Goetz, who had prior firearms and target shooting experience, described how he discharged all five rounds in less than 1.6 seconds. (Some eyewitness testimony stated all shots were fired within one second.)

 

The first shot hit Canty in the center of the chest; the second shot struck Allen in the upper rear shoulder while he was turned about 90 degrees from Mr. Goetz. The angle of the bullet suggested that Mr. Allen was ducking^[1]; the third shot hit the subway wall just in front of Cabey; the fourth shot hit Cabey in the left side, severing his spinal cord and rendering him paraplegic; the fifth shot went through Ramseur's arm and lodged itself in his left side. Goetz then immediately looked at the first two men to make sure they were "taken care of." Goetz then saw Cabey moving on the bench and confessed to approaching Cabey and saying, "You don't look too bad; here's another," and then attempted to shoot Cabey again in the stomach, with an empty gun. Cabey, who was briefly standing prior to the shooting, was sitting on the subway bench during all attempted shots. In his subsequent police statement, Goetz explained, "If I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again." In a 2008 interview, Goetz denied having actually made the statement "You don't look too bad, here's another" in the subway car, but said that he did try to shoot Cabey again, after which he knew he was out of bullets^[2].

 

All four men survived, though Cabey was permanently paralyzed and suffered brain damage as a result of the bullet that severed his spine.

 

Goetz claimed that at the moment of the incident he experienced severe distortion of his visual depth of field, one of many known significant physiological effects of epinephrine (adrenaline), a fight-or-flight hormone released by the adrenal medulla. He also apparently suffered a combination of loss of hearing and audio exclusion, in part from the adrenaline rush and also from the tremendous decibel level of the gun discharge reverberating inside the confined space of the subway car with its carbon steel walls and fiberglass benches. In media interviews, Goetz has described in haunting, vivid detail, the incredible high-pitched ringing in his ears as a part of his overall state of mind at the moment of the incident. Goetz claimed he suffered this hearing loss and audio exclusion after the first shot and up to the point he noticed two women who he thought were unintentionally hit by his bullets. These women in fact fainted outright in response to the trauma of the incident.

 

After the shooting, the only other passengers of the original 15 to 20 that remained in the subway car were the two nearby women who had fainted. After talking to the two women to determine if they were injured — they were not — Goetz was approached by the conductor who had been in the next car. Goetz refused to hand over his gun to the conductor, stating "They tried to rob me", and a few minutes later left the train which had halted because of the incident, a common practice on the New York City subway system during certain emergency situations. Due to the tremendous decibel volume of the shots inside the confined space of the subway car, there were initial witness reports after the incident that suggested the gun involved was a .44 Magnum or other large caliber handgun. Goetz alluded to these reports in a December 2004 media interview on the Opie and Anthony radio show that the volume was in part due to the fact that the shots he fired that afternoon "cleaned the barrel" of the small-frame .38 revolver he used. In other words, those shots were purportedly the first time he had ever fired that particular gun.

 

Goetz fled the subway system at the Chambers Street Station. He then rented a car and drove to Bennington, Vermont and buried the gun and the blue windbreaker he wore at the time of the shooting. He walked into the Concord, New Hampshire police station to turn himself in on December 31, 1984. While he was away, police had already tried to contact him at his Greenwich Village apartment.

 

After the incident, rumors spread that Goetz had been threatened with sharpened screwdrivers. This rumor was published as fact by some newspapers; however, neither Goetz nor the young men made any such claim. In fact, during his subsequent statement to the police Goetz expressed a belief that none of the young men were armed. Paramedics and police did find a total of four unsharpened screwdrivers on two of the men, which they explained were to be used to break into video arcade game change boxes. Goetz's confession to shooting Cabey twice, first in the left side and later in the stomach, and Goetz's use of the phrase "You don't look too bad; here's another" was made public by the DA prior to the second grand jury. This was reported as fact in the media for 18 months up to the time of the criminal trial, when Cabey's medical records were released indicating he was shot once in the left side.

[Sinker]

I don't get your point with the article?

 

He's a legal gun owner?

 

Its also american......google something canadian.

 

Sinker

[danbo]

Kill 'em all..let God sort 'em out!

[Fisherman]

Clamp-it, I think you're missing the point that the illegal use of any firearm by law abiding citizens is so low that you'd be more likely to choke on a badly casted earthworm. Realistically I think you stand a worse chance of being involved in a vehicle accident where alcohol is a factor, so what does society do? Ban alcohol or vehicles, neither, but we live with the chance. And yes, I've had a gun pointed at me, rather close range about 6 inches from my right ear, QPP, thought I and the other guy in my car were bank robbers. I was an army cop, the other guy was a firefighter. He had the shotgun pointed at him. Deport the criminals or lock them up, for a looong time. Now if we could get the legal system enforced by judges with kahoonas, maybe things would be better.

[Raf]

i'm looking for more stats especially as they pertain to handguns, but so far i've found this one right off the public safety canada gov't site to give ya an idea.

 

http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/media/nr/200...0619-2-eng.aspx

 

There are nearly 7 million registered long-guns in Canada. Yet of 549 murders recorded in Canada in 2003, only 2 were committed with long-guns known to be registered.

[jediangler]

If all handguns were illegal it would be easy to spot the criminals...anyone with a handgun. Get a new hobby. I don't care if it's not fair, who said life was fair? Long guns are for hunting, handguns are for killing. I have yet to read a story in the newspaper where a liquor store was robbed by a guy with a rod & reel.

[Sinker]

If all handguns were illegal it would be easy to spot the criminals...anyone with a handgun. Get a new hobby. I don't care if it's not fair, who said life was fair? Long guns are for hunting, handguns are for killing. I have yet to read a story in the newspaper where a liquor store was robbed by a guy with a rod & reel.

 

The only problem I have with that is once they get our handguns, our long guns are next!

 

Your also painting all law abiding citizens as being criminals....just for owning a handgun.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Sinker

[scuro]

FACT FILE - from Physicians for social responsibility

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:lxXbOA...t=clnk&cd=1

 

Quick facts

 

1)A person dies by suicide about every 18 minutes in the United States. Each suicide intimately affects at least six other people.

2)A gun kept in the home is 11 times more likely to be used to commit or attempt a suicide than to be used in self-defense.

3)The dramatic increase in American youth suicide since 1960 is primarily attributable to an increase in suicide by firearms.

4)Of elderly persons who commit suicide, over 71% use guns.

 

From PBS

http://www.pbs.org/thesilentepidemic/riskfactors/guns.html

 

--Firearms are the most common method of suicide by youth. This is true for both males and females, younger and older adolescents, and for all races (Kachur et al., 1995).

 

--The increase in the rate of youth suicide (and the number of deaths by suicide) over the past four decades is largely related to the use of firearms as a method (Boyd & Moscicki, 1986; CDC, 1986; Kachur et al., 1995).

 

--The most common location for the occurrence of firearm suicides by youth is the home (Brent et al., 1993).

 

--There is a positive association between the accessibility and availability of firearms in the home and the risk for youth suicide (Brent et al., 1993; Kellerman et al., 1992).

 

--The risk conferred by guns in the home is proportional to the accessibility (e.g., loaded and unsecured firearms) and the number of guns in the home (Brent et al., 1993; Kellerman et al., 1992).

 

--Guns in the home, particularly loaded guns, are associated with increased risk for suicide by youth, both with and without identifiable mental health problems or suicidal risk factors (Brent et al., 1993).

 

--If a gun is used to attempt suicide, a fatal outcome will result 78% to 90% of the time (Annest et al., 1995; Card, 1974)

 

--Public policy initiatives that restrict access to guns (especially handguns) are associated with a reduction of firearm suicide and suicide overall, especially among youth (Carrington et al., 1994; Loftin et al., 1991; Sloan et al., 1990).

Edited May 28, 2008 by scuro

[Guest lundboy]

Not to mention that there are many studies that have shown that when guns are banned in a city, crime rates go way up! Think about it. You're a criminal, you want to rob someone... are you gonna go to a city where there is a high percentage of legal gun owners trained how to use them? Or are you gonna go to a city where guns are banned and there is an un-armed population? Hmmm.... sounds like a no brainer to me.

 

 

 

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

Edited May 28, 2008 by lundboy

[danbo]

[huntervasili]

What am I missing?

 

A rifle or shotgun's purpose is to hunt game. They are considered 'long guns', and are difficult to conceal unless modified.

 

A handgun, and correct me if I'm wrong, is used to shoot people, or for target practice.

 

Is there any other use for a handgun? Why does a person need to have one?

 

It is #1 a means of protection used by trappers

#2 Used by people as a means of self defence, and 95% of the time it is only displayed and not fired

#3 It is a hobby of many sport shooters

#4 it is an Olympic competition and if you ban them canadians will not be able to compete...

I could add alot more to the list but I think this clarifies

[Cookslav]

illegal use of any firearm by law abiding citizens is so low that you'd be more likely to choke on a badly casted earthworm. Realistically I think you stand a worse chance of being involved in a vehicle accident where alcohol is a factor, so what does society do? Ban alcohol or vehicles, neither, but we live with the chance.

 

Deport the criminals or lock them up, for a looong time. Now if we could get the legal system enforced by judges with kahoonas, maybe things would be better

 

 

QUOTE(jediangler @ May 27 2008, 09:39 PM) *

If all handguns were illegal it would be easy to spot the criminals...anyone with a handgun. Get a new hobby. I don't care if it's not fair, who said life was fair? Long guns are for hunting, handguns are for killing. I have yet to read a story in the newspaper where a liquor store was robbed by a guy with a rod & reel.

 

 

The only problem I have with that is once they get our handguns, our long guns are next!

 

Never have truer words been spoken IMO....

 

Why ban my handguns because some drug dealing loser used a stolen one to kill some one?

Should you ban my car too because that same stole a car and ran some on over?

Or should we also ban kitchen knives, Rat poison, baseball bats, tire irons, golf clubs, glass bottles, belts, rope, hammers, screw drivers, chainsaws,

Pipes, chains, ice picks, shovels, axe, hatchets, pitch forks, steel toes boots.......

I'm sure You get the point.

 

 

Even if you could some how take away a criminals guns(good luck with that), they will just use somthing else.

Its cheesy, but its so true.

Guns don't kill people....people kill people

 

Criminals will always find a way to get their job done.

Banning hand guns will only serve to take them from law abiding citizens, and inturn will do NOTHING to

Curb gun Crime amongst criminals.

The best solution available is put the Criminals away for longer if not permenantly...

Remove the criminal...remove the threat

Removing the Guns will only make them become more resourcefull.

 

but thats just my oppinion

[huntervasili]

FACT FILE - from Physicians for social responsibility

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:lxXbOA...t=clnk&cd=1

 

Quick facts

 

1)A person dies by suicide about every 18 minutes in the United States. Each suicide intimately affects at least six other people.

2)A gun kept in the home is 11 times more likely to be used to commit or attempt a suicide than to be used in self-defense.

3)The dramatic increase in American youth suicide since 1960 is primarily attributable to an increase in suicide by firearms.

4)Of elderly persons who commit suicide, over 71% use guns.

 

From PBS

http://www.pbs.org/thesilentepidemic/riskfactors/guns.html

 

--Firearms are the most common method of suicide by youth. This is true for both males and females, younger and older adolescents, and for all races (Kachur et al., 1995).

 

--The increase in the rate of youth suicide (and the number of deaths by suicide) over the past four decades is largely related to the use of firearms as a method (Boyd & Moscicki, 1986; CDC, 1986; Kachur et al., 1995).

 

--The most common location for the occurrence of firearm suicides by youth is the home (Brent et al., 1993).

 

--There is a positive association between the accessibility and availability of firearms in the home and the risk for youth suicide (Brent et al., 1993; Kellerman et al., 1992).

 

--The risk conferred by guns in the home is proportional to the accessibility (e.g., loaded and unsecured firearms) and the number of guns in the home (Brent et al., 1993; Kellerman et al., 1992).

 

--Guns in the home, particularly loaded guns, are associated with increased risk for suicide by youth, both with and without identifiable mental health problems or suicidal risk factors (Brent et al., 1993).

 

--If a gun is used to attempt suicide, a fatal outcome will result 78% to 90% of the time (Annest et al., 1995; Card, 1974)

 

--Public policy initiatives that restrict access to guns (especially handguns) are associated with a reduction of firearm suicide and suicide overall, especially among youth (Carrington et al., 1994; Loftin et al., 1991; Sloan et al., 1990).

 

Esentially canada has a de facto national ban on handguns and has since the 1930's... the registration/licensing process and de facto ban have caused a decrease in firearm suicides but have increased overall as more people have used other methods ie. Hanging, poisoning, etc.

 

I have a bunch of info and counter arguements to all of you're other misleading citations but am in the middle of an essay and so don't at the time being have time to respond to them all..

[huntervasili]

Also firearms bans in Wales, England, and Australia have also caused a huge spike in firearms crimes...

[Sinker]

Scuro,

 

Thanks for the facts, but they don't really apply in Canada. Our gun laws are so strict its almost impossible for a child to get thier hands on a LEGALLY owned handgun.

 

I know if I was being robbed......my guns would be the last thing I'd think of for defense. By the time I unlocked the locked room, unlocked the gun safe, removed the trigger lock, then unlocked the ammo and loaded up......I'd already be toast.

 

There is absolutley no way my kids could ever gain access.

 

Like I said earlier.....you can ban all the guns you want, but criminals will still get them, and use them. ENFORCE strict penalties for those who use them in crime, and then maybe, and only maybe, gun related crimes will drop.

 

Sinker