Boat Gas this year ?

[GbayGiant]

My dad was saying something about having to use premium gas in boats this year because regular is adding ethinol or something like that, can't remember exactly what he said ? Is this true ?

[irishfield]

Yep..we've debated it here before John. Search will bring up some info Ethanol (sp?) in fuel. Depends on your fuel system components, etc as to whether it will effect you or not.

[Sinker]

Apparently it separates the oil from the gas?

 

And it attracts water into your fuel system?

 

I've never had a problem.......but my gas doesn't sit around too long. I also add stabilizer to each tank......apparently it helps.

 

This is only a concern for 2-strokes.

 

Sinker

[GbayGiant]

Interesting, I'll have to read up on it. Great, another extra 10c a litre this year, can't wait.

[Vanselena]

One thing about ethanol is your engine will run cooler. Dirt bikes love it because they are air cooled, not so sure that is so good for boats.

 

It should be noted that Sunoco has ethanol in all blends even the octane 94.

 

This summer I experimented and found that my boat ran better using premium gas, especially coming out of the hole.

 

Here is the article

 

 

 

Maybe you guys already knew this...I didn’t(!)...if you have a 2-stroke in your life, read on. I thought I would share with you what I have learned. I’m wondering if it explains some of the things that have been happening around the island in the last couple of years.

 

 

 

 

 

Here’s how it started:

 

I was at the Stihl dealer getting a new chain for my chainsaw. He showed me something I had not seen before called ‘Phase Separation’ and he said it was unique to gasoline blended with Ethanol (slide 11 on the ppt shows it)...so stay away from ethanol blends sonny boy. After nearly 6 hours of research (i.e.: surfing the net, calling Fuel companies, etc.) here is what I’ve learned:

 

 

 

 

 

Brief overview:

 

Gasoline, blended with either Ethanol or Methanol, is called ‘Oxygenated Fuel’.

 

 

 

Gasoline blended with Ethanol suffers from ‘Phase Separation’. Gasoline blended with Methanol does not.

 

 

 

Phase separation is generally not an issue in 4 stroke applications but can be real problematic in 2 stroke applications.

 

 

 

E10 means 10% ethanol, 90% gasoline. Where ethanol blends are sold, all “low” and “mid” products (in Ontario) contain ethanol.

 

 

 

 

 

Details:

 

Ethanol was widely introduced to the US market in 2005 and they have had 2 years experience with the impact on the marine industry. Ontario has regulated that all fuels sold must meet a 10% ethanol average. That does not mean all fuels sold must contain ethanol.

 

 

 

Ethanol blends well with gasoline but even better with water. Since ethanol and water readily dissolve in each other, when ethanol is used as an additive in gasoline, water will actually dissolve in the blended fuel to a much greater extent than in conventional gasoline. When the water reaches the maximum amount that the gasoline blend can dissolve, any additional water will separate from the gasoline. The amount of water required (in percent of the total volume) for this phase separation to take place varies with temperature. At 15C, water can be absorbed by a blend of E10 up to a content of 0.5 volume percent before it will phase separate. This means that approximately 5 ml of water can be absorbed into one litre of fuel before the water will begin to phase separate. For comparison, 100% gasoline can absorb only 0.02 volume percent water (or 0.2 ml of water per litre of gasoline) at the same temperature.

 

 

 

Makes me think:

 

Think of it this way...gas/oil mixture + water. What happens? Water settles to the bottom, gas/oil floats on top. Motor doesn’t start well or runs like poop until the water is consumed. Bottom line...engines don’t run on water so there is no need for lubricant. Now picture the four ingredients (Gasoline, Ethanol, Oil and Water) and think of this...gas/oil mixture floats on top, ethanol/water mixture is next, then water at the bottom. What happens? The water gets trapped (or as mentioned above, consumed), the ethanol/water mixture is next, the gas/oil mixture comes last. The problem is the engine will run on the ethanol/water mixture but there’s no oil(!) As the Stihl dealer said, what happens is the engine suddenly increases in rpm (i.e.: it’s running real good on that ethanol!) and if you don’t shut it off, it will seize. The seizure mode is clearly evident...no lubricant.

 

 

 

 

 

The simple solution:

 

Buy non-Ethanol blended fuel for the 2 strokes...look for retailers that do not have Ethanol signs/products or buy high grade gasoline from Shell or Esso. Suncor (Sunoco) and PetroCan have E10 in all their products. Esso and Shell are both E10 in low grade, E5 in mid-grade, E0 in high grade. If you want to be 100% ethanol free, buy from pumps that have dedicated high grade hoses.

 

 

 

 

 

More verbiage about Ethanol:

 

The ethanol will be drawn from the gasoline into the water at the bottom, separating from the gasoline. The product in the tank is no longer a homogeneous blend of ethanol and gasoline, but two layers of product--a layer of gasoline on top and an ethanol layer on the bottom referred to as “phase separation.” Phase separation can be a problem for two strokes since the product is no longer an ethanol-gasoline blend.

 

 

 

Soft metals such as zinc, brass or aluminum, which are commonly found in conventional fuel storage and dispensing systems, are not compatible with ethanol, especially at the higher concentration found in E15 motor fuel. Some nonmetallic materials may also degrade when these materials, such as natural rubber, polyurethane, adhesives (used in older fiberglass piping), certain elastomers and polymers used in flex piping, bushings, gaskets, meters, filters, and materials made of cork, come in contact with ethanol. The copper and/or plastic in air eliminator floats may lack compatibility with ethanol.

 

 

 

 

 

And Even More verbiage about Ethanol:

 

 

 

1.Change fuel filters/empty water separators more often.

 

The potential for fuel systems deposits to be dissolved by ethanol gasoline blend fuels has been identified. The introduction of ethanol gasoline blend fuels into fuel systems may dissolve some of the fuel system deposits which in turn will clog filters and fuel metering devices. This impact is most likely on older used engines which have seen previous use on straight gasoline. It is recommended that filters should be changed every 10 hours until there are no deposits.

 

 

 

2.Should there be any adjustments made to the fuel system?

 

The affects of enleanment (air/fuel mixture that is significantly leaner than it is designed) have been reported on the impact on vehicle drive-ability, that for carbureted vehicles, the effect of enleanment will be strongly linked to the calibration of the carburetor. Further enleanment due to the ethanol blend would seriously deteriorate the operation of the engine. On the contrary, engines with a rich calibration may not be subject to deterioration of operation.

 

 

 

A report on off-road engines by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), states that the addition of oxygenates to gasoline has the effect of enleaning the air/fuel mixture slightly on engines that do not adjust or optimize the air/fuel ratio (open loop engines). Fuel metering components are sized to deliver an air/fuel mixture that optimizes power output, fuel economy and durability. Engine manufacturers are aware of the air/fuel ratio sensitivity of their engines and in some cases, they recommend alterations to certain engine models when using oxygenated gasoline. If an engine operates at an air/fuel mixture that is significantly leaner than it is designed for, it is highly probable that it will run at a somewhat higher temperature, leading to concerns that engine damage could result. Virtually all off-road engines are two-stroke and usually operate at air/fuel ratios that are rich enough to not be affected by the addition of oxygen. In United States, a maximum 10% ethanol blend is allowable under regulations.

Some manufacturers of recreational vehicles offer recommendations for modifying engines when operated on oxygenated fuels.

Consumers are advised to consult their owner’s manual or servicing dealer to

determine the manufacturers recommended course of action.

 

 

 

3. 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke

 

limited information available indicate, a field evaluation of two-stroke engines running 10% ethanol gasoline blend fuel on a number of utility engines indicated that satisfactory engine durability was possible. A lubricity test was performed which indicated that lubricity was improved using ethanol-blended fuels. Upon completion of the testing, the engines were disassembled and inspected. One observation made was the greater incidence of ring sticking for test engines with high hours of operation, 200-400 hours. Crankcase scavenged two-stroke engines may also experience loss of lubrication by the oil separating out of the fuel oil mix. This may occur through unsuitable oil formulation or the ethanol separating from the gasoline (phase separation). Phase separation may occur if the water content of the fuel exceeds a threshold value. Should the engine start and run when phase separation has occurred the engine will not be lubricated, a situation presenting the greatest potential for engine damage.

 

 

 

The effect of enleanment on Mercruiser inboard marine engines (four stroke cycle engines) operating on 10% ethanol gasoline blends is described as a slightly leaner running engine. Should the engines be in unaltered condition and the fuel system in good operating condition the enleanment should not cause any problems.

 

 

 

4.What is Phase Separation?

 

Note that should phase separation occur in the fuel supply to a two-stroke engine it is likely that lubricating oil will not be present in the ethanol-water phase. Should the engine start and run on the ethanol-water phase this presents the greatest potential for engine damage through lack of lubricant. Four-stroke engines will tend to stall or exhibit poor operability as a result of water contamination or phase separation. Water of up to a concentration of 50 ppm at ambient temperatures will remain in solution with gasoline causing no fuel system related problems. Ethanol has an affinity for water and should the water content of an ethanol gasoline blend increase, phase separation or de-mixing is likely to occur. This process is temperature dependent occurring more readily at lower temperatures with lower ethanol content and therefore more readily at higher temperatures with higher ethanol content.

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting links:

 

http://www.lubrizol.com/BioQualified/pdfLi...allenge_E10.pdf

 

 

 

http://www.marina.ca/Announcements/Ethanol...85/Default.aspx

 

 

 

http://www.allsafe-fuel.org/TechPaper.pdf

 

 

 

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envision/ethanol/index.htm

Edited January 19, 2008 by Vanselena

[OhioFisherman]

Yes ladies and gentlemen another boating season, talk here is gas could hit 3.50 a gallon by summer, and some mention in the papers about an increase in gas tax, 40 cents a gallon over 5 years. LOL fueling a recession?

[boatman]

You can't avoid ethanol in Ontario. All gas is to be 10% ethanol, now. Your motor doesn't want Supreme either. Use either 87 octane with fuel stabiliser (like you should anyway) or use mid grade fuel (89 octane) with stabiliser. As always, try not to store fuel for long periods of time.

[Guest lundboy]

It also causes the rubber fuel lines, and motor seals and gaskets to disintegrate in some boats 5+years or older. Apparently the newer boats have rubber that is not affected by the alcohol.

 

My boat mechanic showed me examples of fuel lines and other engine parts that were damaged by the alcohol that he has had to replace for customers.

 

The only way to fix is to replace all with ethanol approved parts (big $$$$).

 

BTW some plastic gas tanks also are affected.

[GbayGiant]

Thanks Vanselena and others, good info. I have always used stabalizer at the begining and end of season. I use the gas quickly so never any problems during thre season, but i guess its the best quality this year, I can see it being 1.50 +/ L this year, should be fun.

[skeeter]

Thank you Vanselena for doing all the home work for every one here that reads your post.

I guess i am now going to Esso or Shell for my gas, not petro canada like i have always done.

i hope my sled gets better milage on premium !!!!!

but i guess its worth it then rebuilding the engine.

 

 

THANK YOU AGAIN

 

 

DANN

[sonny]

Here's a little more information for you...as i am in the automtive repair trade and have learned a little about it,,,in canada there is a maximum of 10% ethenol added to fuel(here's where the problem lies)....in regular gasoline that number can vary...up to 15% in some cases,,,and what the major problem with ethenol is it's lack of lubricating qualities and the fact that it burnes at a leaner air to fuel ratio( gas 14:1),,but this may help.....the higher the quality of gas the less ethenol added and more controlled..

 

an easy test for amount of ethenol in gas is this

 

get a graduated beaker and fill 50% with gas,,,slowly add 50% water,,,cap beaker and shake,,,the ethenol will be absorbed into the water giving you the amount of ethenol in the gas ex.. if the seperation line moved from 50 to 52 that would i believe be 4% ethenol

 

what we are noticing in the automotive trade is that fuel pumps are running at a higher currant rate and burning out quicker due to the lack of lubrication,,,,there's more but thats the biggest one

 

ohh ya,,,never use 85% ethenol in a motor that is not designed to due so!!!!!!!

Edited January 20, 2008 by sonny

[icefisherman]

You guys made me think seriously about this.

Did a bit of reading myself and seems most everyone suggests either keeping your fuel tank full (95%) with added stabilizer or completely empty....now....since I got my boat month and a half ago and not sure what the dealer did when they say they winterized it, what should I do?

Not sure how I can "completely" empty the tank as this maybe the best option....?!!? Any ideas on that?

 

And simply filling it up to the top now and adding stabilizer - will this help or will it trap any existing water that may already be there? And simply cover the already separated gas/ethanol?

 

Now that the problem is identified what would be the best PRACTICAL solution?

 

And where can we find what ON gas stations sell what ethanol % in their gas in the various grades?

I use mostly Canadian Tire to buy my gas and am not sure what their ethanol % is in the gas they sell. Sounds every gas station now has some ethanol in their regular (87 octane) gas, but who has the least as having to buy premium gas all season at much higher (expected?!) gas prices is not very attractive option to me.

 

Cheers,

Ice Fisherman

Edited January 20, 2008 by icefisherman

[pikehunter]

I use mostly Canadian Tire to buy my gas and am not sure what

Canadian Tire Gas = Esso

Pioneer Gas = Sunoco

 

If the dealer said the boat was winterized they probably ran stabilizer through the system.

Edited January 20, 2008 by pikehunter

[ram]

Check out PhaseSeparation.org

 

for more information about dealing with this new ethanol gas.

[icefisherman]

Well, I may have found the answer of my own question.

Just spoke to an outboard dealer reguarding the E-10 mixed fuel, water, phase separation etc.

Instead of emtying the fuel tank in the spring and wondering what to do with all the bad gas he suggested dumping some of this product inside the tank and in his opinion it'll take care of the problem:

 

http://www.startron.com/

 

It does say:

 

Eliminates & Prevents Ethanol Fuel Problems

Ethanol / E10 fuels increase the amounts of water and sludge in your fuel tank. Star Tron breaks down this excess water and sludge to sub-micron size allowing it to be safely burned away during normal engine operation. Therefore Star Tron prevents phase separation and fuel gelling, eliminiating ethanol fuel problems..

 

Same dealer told me Esso and Shell do not put E-10 in their fuel.

I'll check on that next time I go to each gas station.

 

Cheers,

Ice Fisherman

[Cast-Away]

The first year that I owned by boat in 2002, I went through two fuel senders (electronic fuel gauge) inside my fuel tank. I later found out that ethanol ruins the circuit board that the components are mounted on. I stopped putting Sunoco gas in my boat and have not had a problem since that time. Now Esso states that their gas also contains ethanol. Shell is not stating this yet, so I am buying my fuel from them.

[misfish]

Heres another tid bit for ya. If you can,try to buy from a buck storge distributor. I found a BIG difference from buying from the local retailers. Gas is almost brought in every other day. I also can say I never had gas sit more then 5 days in my tanks.Always fresh and guzzling.LOL

[pikehunter]

buck storge distributor

 

Whazat???

[irishfield]

I bought for a buck today in Waverly ! I 'tink he means Bulk Harry.

[pikehunter]

Gothcha Wayne, isn't there a limit on how much an individual can keep on hand? Just wonderin'

[irishfield]

Don't know.. I think Brian was going into a Key card yard. I have a 500 gallon tank in my yard for AV gas.