Junior Seau

[Billy Bob]

From what wiki link I don't see a single professional source that states steroid use lead directly to anyone of those issues. Too many opinions and not enough facts.

 

Also BB, HGH and steroids are two very different things.

 

I used that reference as it directly dealt with NFL players...but here's even more info on the subject....

 

Addictive Potential

 

Animal studies have shown that AAS are reinforcing—that is, animals will self-administer AAS when given the opportunity, just as they do with other addictive drugs.3,4 This property is more difficult to demonstrate in humans, but the potential for AAS abusers to become addicted is consistent with their continued abuse despite physical problems and negative effects on social relations.5 Also, steroid abusers typically spend large amounts of time and money obtaining the drug: this is another indication of addiction. Individuals who abuse steroids can experience withdrawal symptoms when they stop taking AAS—these include mood swings, fatigue, restlessness, loss of appetite, insomnia, reduced sex drive, and steroid cravings, all of which may contribute to continued abuse. One of the most dangerous withdrawal symptoms is depression— when persistent, it can sometimes lead to suicide attempts.

 

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/infofacts/steroids-anabolic-androgenic

 

BTW my oldest son is a doctor.

 

And I was on medical steroids....you get VERY edgy on them....and I was only on a medium strength prescription...

Edited May 3, 2012 by Billy Bob

[manitoubass2]

Unless your son is an endocrinologist with no bias, I don't see what that has to do with anything???

 

and if you were using prescription testosterone (a base steroid) and you suffered negative side effects such as moodiness, it was more than likely it was administered in a poor manner dose wise.

 

if/when you come off a steroid, you need to administer more drugs appropriately to get the body to start producing it's own testosterone again, like HCG or Clomid. Or you will have symptoms relative to zero testosterone production.

 

FYI, there are thousands of steroids all with unique effects and characteristics, "doctors" are not necessarily experts on the issue

[mercman]

As much as i hate to agree with BB, he is right. The question as to whether or not JR was on, or stopping steroids is one we may never know for sure.

The stories on his untimely death are many, but from what i have read, suicide makes no sense. Officially no note. Spoke to his mother on the same day and sounded perfectly fine.(cant fool our moms)No real problems or depressive incidents to speak of.

Gunshot wound to the chest? Accidental maybe, but people rarely shoot themselves in the chest, when trying to end thier lives.

 

Just doesnt sound right A sad mystery.

[BillM]

An autopsy will show if steroids were still in his system.. Depending on the type, they could stick around for up to 3-4 weeks.

 

Also, people are forgetting this is the same guy that drove his Escalade off a cliff after having a fight with his gf.

[manitoubass2]

It's not a matter of whos right, lol.

 

For every study you show me with negative side effects, I can show you hundreds of the positives.

 

I wouldn't rule out it may have played a role, and it might not have. But it is far more likely there was other issues or drug use etc.

 

Your way more likely to die from NSAID use or even acetaminophen use then any steroid.

 

The mind works on a complicated system of neurochemistry, steroids alter neurochemistry indirectly, unlike SSRI's and other anti depressant drugs that are way more at risk of causing suicidal episodes.

 

It could even be the alteration of the "risk/reward" system and his neurotransmitor makeup that contributed to his condition.

 

I often wonder how ex professional athletes deal with things as they step away from that pedastle they are on. It must be a very tough thing to deal with mentally.

[manitoubass2]

RIP

 

anyhow, just a difference in opinions.

 

Lets get back to fishing, I wanna see more of those perch BB

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2012 by manitoubass2

[Gregoire]

Really interesting debate here. I wish that the people who ran sports leagues were able to look at facts and express their opinions without offending or disrespecting others like you guys have.

Just to add my input I think that brain trauma rather than steroid is likely to be a larger contributor if this was actually a suicide.

[manitoubass2]

fishgreg, in terms of the further study of concussions and their effects.

 

It's great that they are studying it in further detail, and obviously the science relating to it is improving, and thats a great thing. But this issue will never be fully understood, nor resolved.

 

Neurotransmitters are ridiculously complicated, to the point where even the experts in the field know very little.

 

They involve a lovely little lady named homeostasis, and they alter production, amounts etc very often, and are intricately correlated to our minds/bodies actions in millions of ways. They are altered also by millions of other factors, how we act, where we live, how we eat and the list carries on forever.

 

Thats part of the problem in studying these issues, there are simply too many factors involved to create studies that can show definitive answers. We can only create theories, and then test those theories. But even when an answer if found, it complicates the issue further, it doesn't resolve it.

 

 

 

and yes, it is a very interesting debate.

Edited May 3, 2012 by manitoubass2

[Billy Bob]

 

 

FYI, there are thousands of steroids all with unique effects and characteristics, "doctors" are not necessarily experts on the issue

 

No I guess you are.....

[Billy Bob]

An autopsy will show if steroids were still in his system.. Depending on the type, they could stick around for up to 3-4 weeks.

 

Also, people are forgetting this is the same guy that drove his Escalade off a cliff after having a fight with his gf.

 

Yes, I remember that.

[manitoubass2]

No I guess you are.....

 

Pharmacology and organic chemistry use to be a passion of mine.

 

I'm not a "doctor" though

 

Just poking fun, I don't mean any disrespect. Knowledge is power, or or them fighting words? lol

 

BillM, an autopsy probably won't show much in terms of steroids in ones system. The half life on most these drugs is remarkably short, with a few exceptions to the ester the compound is binded too.

 

What they look at is the ratio of testosterone to epitostosterone, then they basically guess. Sounds dumb, but it's totally true. Unless his numbers were tested prior, that all you can really do.

 

Most anabolic steroids are altered chemically from their pharmaceutical counterparts, so there is no baseline to test against. If the compound and its metabolites have not existed in a lab somewhere, there is no test that will show an "unkown" drug in your system.

 

Remember as well, there are numerous sub-types of steroids as well. So even if they say "we found steroids!!!!" it's very likely they are referring to steroids that aren't anabolic in nature, but more than likely a corticosteroids or something of the like.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2012 by manitoubass2

[Billy Bob]

Pharmacology and organic chemistry use to be a passion of mine.

 

I'm not a "doctor" though

 

Just poking fun, I don't mean any disrespect. Knowledge is power, or or them fighting words? lol

 

It's just you're discounting everything I have produced.....but that's what makes the world go around....

 

Now I not saying concussions were ALSO not a part of it, as I'm sure it was...but also abuse of steroids could be a contributing factor...

 

I guess you're just living up to your handle "master debator"...

 

And you should know you can't reason with a Redneck....

Edited May 3, 2012 by Billy Bob

[smally21]

hey mercman how does an appliance repair dude know so much about how/where people shoot themselves during the act of suicide?

 

Come on fella! you dont know jack about how people end their lives. and spouting off like you do is nonsense.

 

(yer a good guy otherwise)

 

there are people that are disturbed/ill whatever in all walks of life.

 

I think JR's arms were bigger than his waist...

Edited May 3, 2012 by smally21

[manitoubass2]

It's just you're discounting everything I have produced.....but that's what makes the world go around....

 

Now I not saying concussions were ALSO not a part of it, as I'm sure it was...but also abuse of steroids could be a contributing factor...

 

I guess you're just living up to your handle "master debator"...

 

And you should know you can't reason with a Redneck....

 

BB, I'm not trying to discount you. Earlier in the thread, I typed about how my concussions effected my ability to get my thoughts across in a manner that can be understood, lol.

 

But it is a discussion of knowledge vs. opinion, so were bound to clash on our thoughts/experiences.

 

Again, alot of times, I either come off as an , or people can't understand what I'm saying, and thats not what I'm trying to convey at all.

 

That is one of my lovely little symptoms of my concussions have left me with

 

 

 

[manitoubass2]

Just so people know,,,

 

When a clinical, double blind placebo trial is done, it is essential every side effect/illness/ailment is documented.

 

So what you end up with in many cases, are a list of side effects and possible issues that may not in fact be directed towards the drug being studied.

 

So a person/company/reporter can then use that information to spin it in a way they feel benefits them, or gets their agenda across, or get a drug to the market etc.

 

So unless you really understand pharmacology, it's very tough to make a valid point about the use/misuse of a compound, because you can show a study that proves anything you want it to prove, but that doesn't mean it's correct.

[uglyfish]

Ya know... Sometimes, people just do stupid things!

 

Can't start blaming concussions and depression. Sorry, but that's just stupid. Especially the concussion aspect.

 

I played football, semi pro for years when I was younger. As well as in high school, and played hockey. I've suffered many concussions, and I also suffer(ed) from severe depression. And I'm still here. I didn't try to kill myself, nor did I think about it.

 

Those that do, are weak and just plain stupid and selfish. All there is to it!

[Gregoire]

Ya know... Sometimes, people just do stupid things!

 

Can't start blaming concussions and depression. Sorry, but that's just stupid. Especially the concussion aspect.

 

I played football, semi pro for years when I was younger. As well as in high school, and played hockey. I've suffered many concussions, and I also suffer(ed) from severe depression. And I'm still here. I didn't try to kill myself, nor did I think about it.

 

Those that do, are weak and just plain stupid and selfish. All there is to it!

 

I really think that are sending a message in this post that you did not intend, or that you are not seeing a connection that is clearly evident to others. If a history of concussions can lead to depression, than it is not a stretch to suggest that depression can lead to suicide. To claim that those who choose to end their lives are weak and selfish is a bit harsh in my opinion. Mental illness is a disease, and if not treated properly can lead to serious consequences. I do not know you, so I will not make assumptions about your life, and how you managed to recover from your concussion, but I do not think that just because you were able to overcome depression that you are justified in saying that people who commit suicide are weak and selfish.

[uglyfish]

U don't over come depression, u learn to live with it. Concussions also take time to subside.

 

I suffered from depression before I was concussed the first time. So there is no direct connection there. And there is no proof what so ever to conclude that concussions cause depression.

 

As u said, u have ur opinion. I have mine. Which is fine, I wouldn't bash u for ur opinion. But having known someone who ended their own life, its a selfish act. Irreguardless of what u may or may not suffer from. It only hurts the ones left behind. Its a cowardly way to avoid dealing with ur illness.

[Bitsmith2k]

Manitoubass is right on point with his steroid comments..

 

Take a look at some studies on head trauma..

It damages your brain.. the days of getting your bell rung, shaking it off and getting back into the game are over..

What is scary with all this concussion stuff is that its extremely difficult to diagnose.. treatment for it isn't very advanced/proven

 

If my wife has anything to do with it, my boy wont play contact sports because of all this..I was pretty sure he would qb the bills to a superbowl..

 

Sorry for grammar and spelling typed this on a phone..

[Gregoire]

I know this is just a news report, but I think it is relevant to the conversation http://www.cnnsi.com/2012/football/nfl/05/03/seau.suicide.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp

[blaque]

Futile debate. The only Individuals that could even HOPE to diagnose the happenings of all this are his close friends and family and personal doctors. All the rest is just guessing

[Gregoire]

Futile debate. The only Individuals that could even HOPE to diagnose the happenings of all this are his close friends and family and personal doctors. All the rest is just guessing

 

I think that if his brain is donated to science that would help to answer a lot of questions. Did you read the SI article. A lot of lawsuits are being launched against the NLF over the issue of brain trauma and concussions. The NFL is taking this issue very seriously, look at how the rules are being changed with regards to blows to the head. I also do not think that a discussion regarding the long term effects of repeated brain trauma is futile, as it raises awareness of an important issue, and not only in football but in hockey as well.

[manitoubass2]

Futile debate. The only Individuals that could even HOPE to diagnose the happenings of all this are his close friends and family and personal doctors. All the rest is just guessing

 

 

Be nice is the mods could relocate the other discussion into a separate thread. I think it's great discussion other then the fact we veered away from JR Seau.

 

 

 

 

 

[blaque]

Sorry.....I should have been more precise. Didnt mean it in a nasty way. I'm not against digging in to the whole brain trauma in sports and the link to suicide. Just sayin that nobody does or could know the reasons why he took his life.

[uglyfish]

Blaque, I didn't take any offense to what u said, and didn't see it as nasty in any way. Ur actually bang on with ur comment. Only junior seau knows why he pulled the trigger, and no matter how much they dig, or probe his brian or make "educated" guesses, its still all speculation, only he knows for sure... And he won't be telling us anytime soon.